(Topic ID: 196972)

1st EM game to work on. Need help to get it working.


By Brewchap

2 years ago



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  • 74 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by bonzo71
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Cherry Bell Schematics.pdf (PDF preview)
0Cherry-Bell-pinside-02 (resized).jpg
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0Cherry-Bell-pinside-01 (resized).jpg
Untitled (resized).jpg
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Capture (resized).JPG
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stepper (resized).jpg

There are 74 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

I have a Sonic Cherry Bell with no schematics yet.

So I'm stuck, this is what I know so for:
Turn game on and all lights come on. Press the credit button and all the score wheels turn, reset to zero, but the score motor keeps running. There has been times when the score motor will stop and I can hit roll overs, targets and a few other stuff to create a score and make the chimes report. All targets report, flipper bats work, but pop bumpers do not work.
The only work that I have done was to clean the playingfield, check/replace bulbs.
This machine was keep in the garage for a number of years so there is some rust. Last owners said that it just quit working, and they had no clue how to work on the machine much less to remove the glass.

I know that the game is trying to reset it's self, but I don't know what order of what ever needs to do it's thing. Also a lot of the labels are missing or can not be read at all.

Yea! If you live in the Knoxville area can I bribe you with food and drink to look over my shoulder to tell me what I'm doing wrong?

#2 2 years ago

Hi Brewchap,

Lots of folks will chime in, I'll start.

First concentrate on one issue at a time. Fix that, move to next. I would start with the score motor. Resetting to zero is good, but if the normally closed switch on each and every score reel does not open at position 0, the score motor still thinks it has work to do.

I'd check all those first. If you pull out a score reel and manually advance it, it should be apparent which switch should open at 0. There are others that close at 9 (which tells the next reel up to fire, i.e. moving from a score of 99 to 100)

Once we get the score motor fixed, it will be easier to move onto the pop bumpers.

Clay's guide is the bible to pin repair:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#top

And Mark's site is also super cool, and has a specific section on reels that may help:
http://markgibson.zenfolio.com/fun-with-pinball/small-boards#ScoreReels

good luck

#3 2 years ago

Will do! I'll report back when it's done. Thank you for your reply.

-4
#4 2 years ago

This is the tool I use first on any EM I receive with issues and it usually solves them.

image (resized).jpeg

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Electrocute:

This is the tool I use first on any EM I receive with issues and it usually solves them.

That looks similar to the tool I had used on me recently for my periodic exam!

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

That looks similar to the tool I had used on me recently for my periodic exam!

Ouch!

#7 2 years ago

Yep- I use a cutting disc too and remove all the wires- makes it easier to see the switches

Butt seriously...

If you want to get this to work, your going to need these things in the following order-

#1 Schematic
#2 Schematic
#3 Schematic
#4 A few basic tools
#5 A willingness to be wrong a lot and slowly start to figure stuff out.

First advice you received was good- EM machines work very very very modularly- so if you pick a simple problem you will most likely find a single maladjusted switch causing it. This is amazing really- the issue is finding the switch among the hundreds under there- thats where the schematic comes in.

There are a bunch of guides to reading a schematic- read them a bunch of times and always remember a schematic is NOT a wiring diagram (not even close- not even remotely close) but it IS a connection diagram and you can follow the path of the electricity to and from any switch and see what other switches it goes through- this is how you fix games. You identify a component thats not working, then you start at the physical thing and check it mechanically and then start tracing back or up the chain for the electrical connections required for it to work.

Pinside is amazing and there are SOOOO many people here who will help you. Let us know if you have the schematic, and then you can start to learn how to find switches and coils!! Trust me, this is FUN!

-2
#8 2 years ago
Quoted from rufessor:

Yep- I use a cutting disc too and remove all the wires- makes it easier to see the switches
Butt seriously...
If you want to get this to work, your going to need these things in the following order-
#1 Schematic
#2 Schematic
#3 Schematic
#4 A few basic tools
#5 A willingness to be wrong a lot and slowly start to figure stuff out.
First advice you received was good- EM machines work very very very modularly- so if you pick a simple problem you will most likely find a single maladjusted switch causing it. This is amazing really- the issue is finding the switch among the hundreds under there- thats where the schematic comes in.
There are a bunch of guides to reading a schematic- read them a bunch of times and always remember a schematic is NOT a wiring diagram (not even close- not even remotely close) but it IS a connection diagram and you can follow the path of the electricity to and from any switch and see what other switches it goes through- this is how you fix games. You identify a component thats not working, then you start at the physical thing and check it mechanically and then start tracing back or up the chain for the electrical connections required for it to work.
Pinside is amazing and there are SOOOO many people here who will help you. Let us know if you have the schematic, and then you can start to learn how to find switches and coils!! Trust me, this is FUN!

Well he already said he doesn't have a schematic yet, so this was a somewhat useless post..

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from 4Max:

And Mark's site is also super cool, and has a specific section on reels that may help:
http://markgibson.zenfolio.com/fun-with-pinball/small-boards#ScoreReels

Wow! Unbelievable time and effort put into building those mockups. Very impressed.

#10 2 years ago

So I when through the score reels, cleaning them up the best I could. I did find a few that did not move freely. Cleaning and adjusting the springs seemed to help a lot. The score motor still runs while player 4 score reel will have a "10 thousand's reel" that likes to turn a revolution or two every so often.

I do have a schematic on it's way from PBR

Quoted from jrpinball:

That looks similar to the tool I had used on me recently for my periodic exam!

I think that I'll hold back on that for the time being!

#11 2 years ago

The joy of your first EM repair! Its been just under a year since my first EM and I have had a blast! Clean all the score reel switch's and make sure they are functioning correctly. The occasional phantom points could be a playfield switch that is not gapped correctly and makes contact when the playfield vibrates.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Matesamo:

The joy of your first EM repair! Its been just under a year since my first EM and I have had a blast! Clean all the score reel switch's and make sure they are functioning correctly. The occasional phantom points could be a playfield switch that is not gapped correctly and makes contact when the playfield vibrates.

I just fixed the phantom points by adjusting one of the switch. Now I got a stepper unit that operates a few times very fast then locks on.

stepper (resized).jpg

#13 2 years ago

It adds 500 points to player one and 1000 points to player two before locking on. But, at least the score motor stops.

1 week later
#14 2 years ago

Back to work on this. The stepper unit is locking on after the score reel reset. Not sure where to look to find why it is locking on yet. Just got the schematic so I'll start there.

#15 2 years ago

I also pick up the instruction manual. Here, I find this the locking stepper unit is the Bonus unit. I believe that this is correct by counting the fingers and matching it up in the manual.

Off to see what I can learn next.

Patrick

#16 2 years ago

Dang! The manual told me what worked off of the Bonus unit, when to those locations and found the switches stuck.

Now I got a stuck coil on the smallest chime. I'm off jumping while clicking my heels together to see what I can find next.

#17 2 years ago

Ok, the smallest chime is trying to lock on but is not over heating. Pop bumpers just need the contact's cleaned and is now working.

#18 2 years ago

Ok, I got all sorts of craziness going on here. I'll try to describe what is happening

I push the start button putting into motion the score reels resetting to zero. Right afterwards, the Bonus unit kicks in on player one adding point to player one. Bonus unit then goes to player two adding points and does not stop. While the points are addin up for player two, the following is also still running.
Coin unit
Bonus unit
Player unit disc
Stepper unit
Up post
and of course player two score reel

The very first score reel (hundredth) coil for player two is hot to the touch (wanting to lock on.)
Smallest chime coil is hot to the touch along wit it's relay. (wanting to lock on.)

At this point I am lost and frustrated...... anyone care to chime in?

#19 2 years ago

Well my first recommendation is open a beer and remember that almost anything electrical in these machines can be fixed, and it's often something quite simple but annoying to track down.

Very difficult to know what's happening here but my first guess is some playfeld switch is stuck on. Maybe a rollover switch or maybe a pop bumper switch. I would check every playfield switch to ensure there is a clear gap on all.

Take some deep breaths (and a few swigs) and you'll get there.

#20 2 years ago

Thank you Max, A few swigs indeed does sound good.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Electrocute:

This is the tool I use first on any EM I receive with issues and it usually solves them.

Don't Do it. Not good . Don't Do it Not Good STOP

#22 2 years ago

You seem to have a couple things going wrong all at once.
The coils heating is a bad thing and you should be careful not to let it run long in this state. Did these things arise after you worked on a specific part or cleaned a bunch of things?

Two recommendations- and I repeat this mantra- don't fix or even touch what is not broke. And unless you can see the literal break assume it's fine unless proven guilty. I don't own this machine and thus have not worked on one so cannot provide a firm place to start- but I would look at the score reels and see why that coil is stuck- there are zero position switches on the reels that should help signal the reset position- use the schematic to figure out what's in between the coil and the switch- start with the switch on the score reels and walk backwards. When you fix one thing pick the next obvious issue and work on that.
You will get it. If you want better help- isolate one issue- do your homework and post a tiny bit of the schematic around the part that's being a problem- and describe what it was doing before- when it broke- and anything you did to the game between those two states!

Good luck- it's frustrating at first but trust me- your learning and it will come together.

#23 2 years ago

Not to belabor the point. But if you only post a text description of a problem and it's more complicated than a flipper EOS issue- your basically asking people to guess (like I did- saying its likely more than one issue- but I don't have any basis for saying that other than it seems like you have a few kinda independent parts doing weird things- but that's a pretty big guess) and if someone guesses- then your investing your time running down what is often not a perfect guess, or your hoping someone very knowedgable about your game and manufacturer wanders in. Almost every single thread that has a picture of the region of interest of the schematic elicits a quick response and usually- it's fixed fast. Another bonus is you will rapidly learn and be guided in how to use a schematic!

One at a time! And your going to be fine.

#24 2 years ago

So I tried to take everyone's advice (thanks guys!) I found 5 difference switches that seemed to cause an issue of some type.
Of course it seems that if you fix one problem, 3 or 4 more pops up. And yes that is the case here also.

Issues noted:
Out hole. Once ball drains, it does not register nor kick the ball to the plunger.
Player or ball does not advance. I'm sure that these are related issues.

Kick out hole for "Collect Bonus". Once ball enters, it does not get kicked out and the Bonus unit runs forever. (Noticed also that bonus get paid out and never builds up) A tilt will do this also.

Over all I can play, I can do everything but the above problems.

Quoted from rufessor:

Not to belabor the point. But if you only post a text description of a problem and it's more complicated than a flipper EOS issue- your basically asking people to guess (like I did- saying its likely more than one issue- but I don't have any basis for saying that other than it seems like you have a few kinda independent parts doing weird things- but that's a pretty big guess) and if someone guesses- then your investing your time running down what is often not a perfect guess, or your hoping someone very knowedgable about your game and manufacturer wanders in. Almost every single thread that has a picture of the region of interest of the schematic elicits a quick response and usually- it's fixed fast. Another bonus is you will rapidly learn and be guided in how to use a schematic!
One at a time! And your going to be fine.

&rufessor, you have a very good point. I am not knowledgeable on how to read the schematics at this time nor do I know where a region of interest in the schematics would be at. At best I'm also just guessing and reaching out for whatever help there is right or wrong. Either way, it will be a learning experience to build on.

#25 2 years ago

Well, Mr. Brewchap, if the score motor has stopped running and chime coils are no longer stuck on I would say you have made great progress. Plus I think your two latest issues are fairly straight forward. And may even be linked, see below.

Ball not kicking out: You will need to study the schematic for something like Outhole solenoid, or Outhole Kicker solenoid. Maybe post that part of the schematic here. If like the machines I own (sorry, I dont have a Sonic) is it probably engaged when a switch on the Outhole Relay is closed. So you need to find the Outhole Relay (post that bit of schematic here too). Good to find where the physical Outhole relay is in the machine too so you can see if its is pulling in when ball goes into the outhole.

But, that relay usually pulls when a number of things happen: first the ball closes the outhole switch on the playfield, then there's often checks like it's not the last ball, but also, and I think this is where "maybe" there's a link, when the bonus unit has finished counting down.

Anyway, my advice, concentrate on one thing first, e.g. the outhole kicker. post the two relevant parts of the schematic here, and see how we go then.

To give you and idea, this is from a Bally (Space Time)

here's the part of the schematic around the outhole solenoid
Capture (resized).JPG
and here's the part around the outhole relay
Capture1 (resized).JPG

#26 2 years ago

Eggcellent! Now we're fixing stuff!

#27 2 years ago

Found a post that described that same problem that I have now. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cherry-bell-sonic-problems-em-bonus#post-2776061

This gentleman was using the Sonic "Face" schematic found at IPDB, so this will make it easier to post pics of the schematics. Here is a picture of the trouble spot.

20170918_130051 (resized).jpg

#28 2 years ago
#29 2 years ago
#30 2 years ago

Sorry for the dbl postings

I found a way to correct the above picture in order to see it better.

20170918_130051 (resized).jpg

#31 2 years ago

I really hate to sound stupid but what is this telling me? That something is wrong with the Bonus unit?

#32 2 years ago

Hi Brewchap
I do not know all posts --- in post-25 4Max shows the wiring of Outhole-Relay and Ball-Kicker (named Outhole Kicker Solenoid).
In Your snippet in post-39 (WHAT pin is it from ?) I see the activation of the Kicker --- if the Outhole-Relay is pulling and the Score-Motor runs and so the turning motor closes its switch "Score-Motor-4B". Big question: DOES the Down-Post-Solenoid fire - see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=3070&picno=49500 - above the right slingshot.

The brown line in my JPG: After a ball is lost then the Bonus is counted down - then along brown lines the Outhole-Relay is made pulling --- it establishes Self-hold-Current along "green lines". Greetings Rolf

0Cherry-Bell-pinside-01 (resized).jpg

#33 2 years ago

Let me see if I can help here. you don't sound stupid. Took me about 3-4 months of asking questions before the basics of schematics sunk in - then it sort of clicked (and the only knowledge/experience I had was an O level* in physics 35 years ago...*UK thing)

First, if you are going to stick this machine, and therefore will acquire others (yes, you will) its worth getting the actual schematic and reading these:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/ (Clays, and my favorite)

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic

http://danny.cdyn.com/russTSG.htm

OK, on to yours - see below.

First the two vertical lines in pink is the circuit coming from your transformer that drives the various solenoids, relays, etc (just not the lamps, thats a lower voltage circuit, usually on the other side of the schematic)

Look at my "1" - that's the ball release solenoid (kicks it out). It pulls in when the its "connected" to the 2 pink wires. Well one is already, the right hand side (see green circle), but the left hand side has to go through a couple of switches before it hits the other side (brown circle):

a. first switch 4B on the score motor has to closed ("yellow 2"), its normally open, so as the score motor turns it will close it at some point - you will need to read Clay's site for details
b. a switch on the Outhole Relay (which will be on the base of your cabinet) has to be closed ("yellow 3"). this switch has a yellow white and a Grey wire if my eyes dont deceive me (and if this schematic's applies to yours!)

So, what causes the Outhole relay to close? The outhole relay coil must get pulled in - thats marked with a blue arrow. For that to pull in:

a. There is a normally closed switch on the "Top Eject" relay ("blue A)
b. There is a switch on the bonus unit that has to be closed when they unit is as zero ("blue B")
c. There is a switch on the score motor, Index D, that has to be closed ("blue C")

Here's how I would approach it. Given you suspect your bonus unit, physically look at the switches on it. there should be one with 3 connections (a make/break switch) the colors of the wires to that switch are on the schematic. Make/break means a switch with three "blades" with the middle one either making a circuit with the top or bottom one. (See Clay's guide again!)

When the unit counts back the bonus to 0, the blades with "W-R" wire and "B" wire (see schematic for legend on colors!) have to be closed. When the bonus is being accumulated (as you play) the wheel moves so those two blades open, but the W-R one now connects to the blade with the "something" colored wire (cannot read it - see large blue circle).

Check that make/break is correct. If it is, I'd check the all the switches I have marked (1-3, A-C). You'll figure it out - in the end its just finding out how to get voltage to both sides of something - in this case a relay then gets voltage to a solenoid.

I'll stop there - its a lot to take in, I hope it made (or will in time) make some sense

good luck

Untitled (resized).jpg

#34 2 years ago

Ah, I must have been writing while Rolf posted.

Rolf is great at these! Brewchap, you are in good hands!

#35 2 years ago

Hi 4Max (and Brewchap)
I did not really want to post in this topic as You are helping. But Brewchap was trobleshooting and asking (and asking) --- so I said to me: Brewchap has time right now and he wants to work on the pin --- I help out with an explanation. 4Max please: pardon my "jumping-in" and proceed "helping in troubleshooting". Greetings Rolf

#36 2 years ago

Rolf. I always like your help and you've helped me lots. So I'm pleased you are here too. The more the merrier!

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

In Your snippet in post-39 (WHAT pin is it from ?)

That is from the Cherry Bell schematics that I have.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Big question: DOES the Down-Post-Solenoid fire - see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=3070&picno=49500 - above the right slingshot.

Yes it is firing, over and over.

I wanted to answer these before I study the drawings to make sense of them.
4Max, thanks for the links, they look to be very helpful! And please, the more heads you put together, the greater the out come.

I'll report back it a bit!

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

After a ball is lost then the Bonus is counted down - then along brown lines the Outhole-Relay is made pulling --- it establishes Self-hold-Current along "green lines". Greetings Rolf

After rereading the postings, I wanted to point out that after the ball is lost, nothing take place. Game is still in play, flippers still work etc.

#39 2 years ago

Rolf, if I remember correctly, you have or had a Cherry bell pin. There is a set of relays that are not labeled attached to the bottom of the playing field. Would you happen to know the labels?

20170921_151841 (resized).jpg

#40 2 years ago

Hi Brewchap
unfortunately "No" - I never had this pin - I look at it in ipdb --- a fun pin with (rather) rare "chance collecting bonus with ball in play landing in the Eject-Hole".

You must do some "detective work" --- here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/3070/Sonic_1978_Cherry_Bell_Instruction_Manual_English_and_Spanish_no_schematics.pdf on page-13 are the relays listed --- Mech. Panel is in the Cabinet, Insert is in the Backbox and You must look at the relays "playfield": We see (for example) that the UP-Post-Coil (playfield) has an Coil "M-29-1000".
Starting in the manual on page-29 ALL the playfield-relays are shown --- You must use the manual and check with Your pin --- or hope for some pinsider to write the needed information. Greetings Rolf

#41 2 years ago

Good info to know. The relays are not grouped as I would have thought. Got all relays but 4 identified. Now I can (or hope) to follow both schematic directions. Don't give up on me yet, Still have some brain cells left from the 70's.

#42 2 years ago

Your in a good place. Those brain cells are the strong ones- you will have this figured out soon!!

#43 2 years ago

lol rufessor

It just dawned on me that the outhole switch (where the ball drains) should have power at all time. Because it don't, once triggered (without power) it does not set into motion other actions, which happens to be right were I'm at.

No power = no reaction

#44 2 years ago

Here is a picture showing the Bonus unit at zero then the next step.

20170923_161244 (resized).jpg

20170923_160652 (resized).jpg

#45 2 years ago

Brewchap,

I own this game. The positions of the bonus stepper look ok. On the other side of the bonus stepper there are some switch that change state when the stepper reaches the zero position. Do these appear to be adjusted properly?

#46 2 years ago

Here is a view from the other side.

20170923_175649 (resized).jpg

20170923_175543 (resized).jpg

#47 2 years ago

Something looks weird here. There is no pin near the make break switch from what I can see. Bonzo71 would you post a picture of yours so Brewchap can see if that's the issue. I sort of suspected it was on my previous post.

#48 2 years ago

I'll take a photo in a few..phone is charging. There are problems with those switches though.. The bottom make break is doing neither(both switches are open) and there is a missing white plastic spacer between the top switch and the bottom make/break.

At the zero position, the top should open (which it is) and the bottom two lower contacts of the make/break should be making contact. I believe the bottom switch on the make/break is the one that triggers the outhole relay..

Basing top and bottom to the orientation of the photo.

#49 2 years ago

Oh..the spacer is there on his game..need my glasses. Still the problem exists with the switch adjustment. That bottom switch needs to close at the zero position. At the one position, the upper make break switch and the upper switch should be closed.

#50 2 years ago

using your photo..the bottom switches circled should be closed at the zero position. At the one position, the switch circled should open and the other two switches should be closed.

make break (resized).JPG

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