(Topic ID: 280713)

1980 Black Knight Power Boot Up/Supply/Logic Issues... $20 Pinside Bounty

By SantaEatsCheese

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

It was all so good but now it's dead. I’m lost and requesting help.

Did an LED job and replaced rubbers on new to me (2 weeks ago) 1980 Black Knight. Everything worked fine. Left pins on next to me in work office for 6 hours the next day and stepped out to see not an error code, but a completely dead machine. Power cycled it… nothing. Went to bed and tried the next day. Machine boots up fine… stays on 10 seconds… then goes off… Coin door coin reject keeps pulsing. No lights in inserts, then none on playfield. Code 9 on MPU board in backbox, then code 0. The longer I wait between trying to power it on, the longer it will stay on (up to 10 seconds). However, if I try to turn it back on it will last about 5 seconds before going out, then 3 seconds the next time… then nothing. It feels to me like a component is overheating and my intuition brings be to the power supply. Looking into the logic fuses… one looks kind of toasty, but replacing it with a new 7 Amp Fast blow fuse has no effect. I just ordered some slow blow fuses but it will be a few days and wanted to know if you had any other ideas. Interestingly, a continuity test does not work on the old 7 amp fuses, but does work on the new 7 amp fuses. However, there is absolutely no life in the machine using the new fuses. Cross posting in Black Knight club and main page. Thanks all!

I am open to any ideas you guys may have and appreciate the help. The is my first Pre-system 11 machine.

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#2 3 years ago

Bad fuse holders?
What brand are the new fuses?
Some of the offbrand fuses are smaller in diameter and don't fit well.

#3 3 years ago

Bad capacitors on power supply maybe?

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Bad fuse holders?
What brand are the new fuses?
Some of the offbrand fuses are smaller in diameter and don't fit well.

Hmmm... tried squeezing the fuse holders together and then putting the new fuses in. It was an issue, but didn't fix anything. I have the same symptoms with new fuses and old fuses now. Will still try new slow blow fuses when they show up Monday.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Bad capacitors on power supply maybe?

Gotta look into that. I have an old power supply board I can switch parts out with. Gotta figure out how to test those first.

#6 3 years ago

I start replying here instead of the club thread.

With the diagnostic connector in place, try starting it with the coin door open. Then turn it on with the coin door closed. See if that changes the 9 condition.

To resolve the 0 condition, try reseating your ROM chips, CPU and NVRAM module.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I start replying here instead of the club thread.
With the diagnostic connector in place, try starting it with the coin door open. Then turn it on with the coin door closed. See if that changes the 9 condition.
To resolve the 0 condition, try reseating your ROM chips, CPU and NVRAM module.

Removed and replaced every chip on the mpu board. No change. Error 9 code only shows when coin door buttons connected at the Blackbox. Will have to get to that one past 0 code error.

My money is on the power supply board in lower right corner being the issue. Ive got.new fuses coming in Monday. But after that may have to order a board as next step.

#8 3 years ago

If you plan on keeping gas discharge displays - don't buy a new board, get your existing board fixed.

#9 3 years ago

Okay... after watching every system 7 repair video on youtube... it looks like my power supply was already previously rebuilt by previous owner and unlikely to be the issue. New capacitors and everything. My suspicions are turning on the MPU board. In my efforts to reseat everything a second time, I got different behavior in the machine. Booted up once with 5000000 on the screen. Grabbed the chip out I had just reseated and... knocked a leg off. So... there is a good chance If I replace this particular chip I can get the game to work and/or I have to replace this anyways. Where do you go for individual circuit chips like this? Is there someplace I can get a set of the ones needed for this MPU board? I'd prefer to repair if I can as these look like socketed replacements. I can order 10 off ebay but don't see them from pinball folks...

Thanks for the ideas folks!

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#10 3 years ago

That 8T97 is used as an address decoder chip (that's long obsolete). It was replaced by 74LS367. Your board uses 3 of them.

https://www.jameco.com/shop/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=47562

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

That 8T97 is used as an address decoder chip (that's long obsolete). It was replaced by 74LS367. Your board uses 3 of them.
https://www.jameco.com/shop/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=47562

Thanks guys! I ordered 10 for this and future repairs. I am hoping between this and some new slow blow fuses this fixes things up. I'll give an update in a week when they show up. Thanks for the help!

#13 3 years ago

I am now offering a $20 pinside donation to pinside on behalf of anyone who can correctly identify the problem (say ooooooooooooooooooooooh with me). I put 2 brand new slow blow fuses in and they are steadily holding without popping. I put in a brand new chip to replace the one I broke a leg off of and it now has the exact same symptoms it had before I screwed that one up.

Symptoms are as follows: Finished LED job, played a few test games... all was good. Next day left pins on about 8 hours while working, came to black knight and it was dead. If I turn it on, it briefly powers up (will even clear balls from the trough) but turns off after about 8 seconds. The next time I turn it on it comes on but not as long. After that, it won't turn on at all, no lights, and a few 00s pop on the display and disapear repeatedly while the coin clear coil files weakly repeatedly and the indicator LED on the MPU board flashes in sync with the coin door ejector.

How I've tried to fix it: Verified fuses are good and replaced the sketchy 7 amp slow blows. Reseated all the chips one at a time, broke one, and replaced it. Unplugged every cable in the backbox one at a time. The only ones that cause any difference in behavior are the ones that power the MPU board.

These boards were largely rebuilt, have new connectors, and the Power supply has brand new (well, 6 months ago) capacitors. Machine was in my possession about 2 weeks before experiencing symptoms.

I am open to any and all suggestions and will donate $20 in your name to pinside if you successfully help me get my game working (say ooooooooooooh with me).

Thanks!

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#14 3 years ago

Cpu chip socket been replaced?

#15 3 years ago

Go get a new can of contact cleaner. Hold a paper towel on the bottom of the mpu board and spray the hell out of all the socketed chips, especially the game roms. Mine was acting crazy, I did that, and now it's working good.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Cpu chip socket been replaced?

I don't know which one the CPU is, but the sockets all appear to have been replaced.

Quoted from DGMartin:

Go get a new can of contact cleaner. Hold a paper towel on the bottom of the mpu board and spray the hell out of all the socketed chips, especially the game roms. Mine was acting crazy, I did that, and now it's working good.

Removed each chip one at a time and drenched the MPU and PSU boards in spray electronic contact cleaner. Broke a leg off of the 40 pin IC chip somehow, but put back in place and still having the exact same symptoms. Will have to replace.

I found a Todd Tuckey video on checking the 5 volt on the roms and all test -4.95 - -5.05 so I'm guessing thats good. My next step is figuring out how to test the 12 volt reset circuit. Based on what I read on Pinwiki that is the next logical place to check.

Thanks all and still open to suggestions!
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#17 3 years ago

I didn't remove the chips. I guess I should have said that.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from DGMartin:

I didn't remove the chips. I guess I should have said that.

All help welcomed... thanks!

I have eliminated the Power supply as the source of the problem. It occured to me I still had a board from my High Speed, that wouldn't power the G.I. but would power an MPU just fine. I switched out the power supplies and it had the exact same symptoms. Turned on for exactly 8 seconds, then went into a reset loop of about 1 second each like clockwork. Same... exact... symptoms... my money is on the MPU board (could be power driver but I don't see how). If I can't figure it out in the next few days I may just order a new board. Gonna take the MPU and power drive board out tomorrow for a closer visual inspection. Thanks All!

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#19 3 years ago

From the pictures, it looks like your CPU board has original R&N ROM Sockets. While not as bad as the dreaded Scanbe sockets, they still should be replaced with more reliable dual-swipe type sockets. This could be the cause of your board not booting fully (0 left on the display).

#20 3 years ago

Upon power up, the LED digit on the MPU board is designed to show zero and will stay that way until the CPU starts executing code. If it stays this way it means the CPU is not booting. This could be due to the reset circuit forever holding the RESET signal low.

In a working machine, the reset circuit holds the RESET line low for about 0.5 seconds, and then allows it to go high. When the CPU sees the RESET signal go high, it starts executing code.

If for some reason the reset signal goes low again, for even a microsecond, the CPU stops executing code and waits for the line to go high again. It then starts executing code from the beginning again.

There is another circuit on the MPU board (the blanking circuit) that watches to see if the CPU is continually updating the player displays. If it notices (or thinks) the CPU is not executing code, it cuts power to the solenoids, displays, and all lamps except the GI lamps. This is to prevent them from blowing.

If you are chewing through solenoid fuses (or any fuses for that matter) remove the fuse and leave it out until you find the problem. Sometimes transistors or PIAs get "stuck" and leave things energized. Leave the fuses out until you have replaced a part or made a change.

Since you've eliminated the power supply from being suspect, your symptoms are likely from something to do with the reset circuit (ie the 556 timer chip and/or related components).

It may also be your NVRAM chip (I see the 5101 chip has been replaced with it). Even if it's "working" it could have corrupt contents. Unfortunately the contents can only be reset by running another program to clear the contents). When the Williams software sees a totally empty 5101/NVRAM chip it will initialize it with default values -- but only if the coin door is open (and the coin door switch is connected and intact).

Your best bet at this point is to isolate problems from the smallest outward.. I have written diagnostic ROM images that will do exactly that. You can find them at:

http://pincoder.ca

They are free to use, and if you have a spare 2532 EPROM chip and a chip programmer, you can download and start running tests.

If you don't have a those items, you can also order a prebuilt, hand assembled, and individually tested adapter card.. complete with my diagnostic ROM images for all Williams system 3 through 7 machines. You can purchase one here:

https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

The documentation on each of the tests, where to start etc, and the ROM images themselves are all available in the software download (See "Release Download" at the top of the page.

Essentially, you will start with the 01a-LEDs test, to verify that your CPU is booting, and is not being interrupted by a fluctuating RESET line.

Second test is "02-blanking" to verify that your blanking circuit is functioning properly.

From there you will test your 5101/NVRAM (referred to as "the CMOS chip" in the documentation), as well as your RAM and CPU chips.

The remainder of the tests gradually test more of your machine. When every test passes, you will have a working machine.

Hope they help!

Craig

ps: There is also a "clear_cmos" ROM image included in the pincoder software that will clear all of the values from your NVRAM, allowing the Williams code to reinitialize it.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

From the pictures, it looks like your CPU board has original R&N ROM Sockets. While not as bad as the dreaded Scanbe sockets, they still should be replaced with more reliable dual-swipe type sockets. This could be the cause of your board not booting fully (0 left on the display).

Quoted from pincoder:

Upon power up, the LED digit on the MPU board is designed to show zero and will stay that way until the CPU starts executing code. If it stays this way it means the CPU is not booting. This could be due to the reset circuit forever holding the RESET signal low.
In a working machine, the reset circuit holds the RESET line low for about 0.5 seconds, and then allows it to go high. When the CPU sees the RESET signal go high, it starts executing code.
If for some reason the reset signal goes low again, for even a microsecond, the CPU stops executing code and waits for the line to go high again. It then starts executing code from the beginning again.
There is another circuit on the MPU board (the blanking circuit) that watches to see if the CPU is continually updating the player displays. If it notices (or thinks) the CPU is not executing code, it cuts power to the solenoids, displays, and all lamps except the GI lamps. This is to prevent them from blowing.
If you are chewing through solenoid fuses (or any fuses for that matter) remove the fuse and leave it out until you find the problem. Sometimes transistors or PIAs get "stuck" and leave things energized. Leave the fuses out until you have replaced a part or made a change.
Since you've eliminated the power supply from being suspect, your symptoms are likely from something to do with the reset circuit (ie the 556 timer chip and/or related components).
It may also be your NVRAM chip (I see the 5101 chip has been replaced with it). Even if it's "working" it could have corrupt contents. Unfortunately the contents can only be reset by running another program to clear the contents). When the Williams software sees a totally empty 5101/NVRAM chip it will initialize it with default values -- but only if the coin door is open (and the coin door switch is connected and intact).
Your best bet at this point is to isolate problems from the smallest outward.. I have written diagnostic ROM images that will do exactly that. You can find them at:
http://pincoder.ca
They are free to use, and if you have a spare 2532 EPROM chip and a chip programmer, you can download and start running tests.
If you don't have a those items, you can also order a prebuilt, hand assembled, and individually tested adapter card.. complete with my diagnostic ROM images for all Williams system 3 through 7 machines. You can purchase one here:
https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/
The documentation on each of the tests, where to start etc, and the ROM images themselves are all available in the software download (See "Release Download" at the top of the page.
Essentially, you will start with the 01a-LEDs test, to verify that your CPU is booting, and is not being interrupted by a fluctuating RESET line.
Second test is "02-blanking" to verify that your blanking circuit is functioning properly.
From there you will test your 5101/NVRAM (referred to as "the CMOS chip" in the documentation), as well as your RAM and CPU chips.
The remainder of the tests gradually test more of your machine. When every test passes, you will have a working machine.
Hope they help!
Craig
ps: There is also a "clear_cmos" ROM image included in the pincoder software that will clear all of the values from your NVRAM, allowing the Williams code to reinitialize it.

Guys,

Thanks for your help. I removed the boards today and upon closer physical inspection, can find nothing wrong with them. I understand the chip connectors and/or ram may need replaced, but looking at the soldering on the back, the removal and replacement of those chips is simply beyond my technical (and steady hand) capabilities. Everything I am hearing is pointing to the issue being on the MPU board. Thanks to everyone's help, I have eliminated the PSU as the source of the issue. I just ordered a replacement Kohout board http://pinballpcb.com/products/williams-system-3-thru-7-main-board/ which will hopefully fix my issue. Once in hand, I will verify that fixes the issue, and then likely sell my close to working original board and spare crappy power supply to offset the cost. Once everything is working I'll make the pinside donation. Thanks for your help and I will keep everyone posted (and am still open to suggestions).

Thanks again!

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