Big Deal
Williams, 1977Hi, I have a 1977 big deal where neither the ball count nor player are advancing correctly. The game is set to 5 balls and the balls advance from 1, 3, 5, 2, 4, game over. The ball count unit only advances every other drain. I have tested for continuity from the outhole relay switch to the ball count unit step up coil as shown in the image and that seems fine. I'm pretty new to EMs and out of ideas. Does anybody have something I can try? Thanks.
Quoted from paddlepaw:the balls advance from 1, 3, 5, 2, 4, game over. The ball count unit only advances every other drain.
You're looking at the right circuit but the 2 symptoms you describe seem incompatible. Does the 1,3,5,2,4 sequence take 10 drains?
Quoted from bonzo71:Are you looking at this with the backglass off? Many times the ball in play numbers are not sequential from left to right. Check out this photo for an example. The game may be stuck on a two player game which would count each ball twice.
The back glass is off. That's embarrassing. I'm not sure if it's stuck on a two player game because it almost always takes two balls to drain. It's like it's serving up double the amount it should.
Quoted from HowardR:Does the 1,3,5,2,4 sequence take 10 drains?
Yes. In 1 player mode. In any multiplayer mode it may take up to 5 before it switches the player.
So far most of my focus has been on the ball count step up unit because I heard that the player unit won't work correctly without it.
I think the culprit is the ball index relay. It locks in through the 100 or 1000 Point relay per normal behavior. However on the first drain the lock is immediately released. When I trigger the 100-point relay it locks in again and the second time it drains it holds until the motor has stopped spinning. I'm not sure what's causing this yet.
Quoted from bonzo71:I think you are on the right track checking the ball count stepper. Manually move the stepper up and down by pushing the metal plungers into the coils..see if it's moving freely.
It seems to be. Player stepper is the same.
With the playfield up, trigger some points and make sure the index relay activates then manually activate the outhole switch and watch the ball count stepper to see if it’s being activated. If it is being activated, is the position of the stepper changing?
Also, check to see if the game is stuck in two player mode. Your first clue would be the "1 to 4 can play" lamps on the backglass. Is it in the one or two player position? The number of players is controlled by the coin unit stepper which is next to the ball count stepper.
It's not stuck in two player mode. It stays on light number one. When I activate some points the ball index locks in every time. When I trigger the drain switch the first time the ball index relay immediately releases its lock and the ball count unit does not Step Up. The second time I trigger points it locks the ball index and when i trigger the drain switch the ball index stays locked in and the ball count fires and goes to the next ball. Then the cycle repeats. First drain, nothing happens. Second drain, the machine acts as it should and the ball count goes up.
Here is a video. It may be somewhat difficult to look at because you have to look at two things at the same time. The ball count stepper only seems to fire when the ball index stays locked. I'm assuming that's normal?
Good video. If this is happening consistently each time, I would check the coin unit. I know you said that it looks like it is on a one player game based on the backglass lamp, but maybe the contacts are slightly out of alignment.
Yes, it is normal for the ball count to advance only when the ball index is locked.
I will investigate the coin unit further. I have tried putting the game in three and four players and then it becomes random how many times it takes for the ball to advance. It can be anywhere from 1-5 drains for the ball to advance.
When checking the coin unit, test that all contacts are centered and firmly touching the surface of the stepper. The manual will show which contact points on the coin unit are in circuit to the ball count stepper.
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/245/Williams_1977_Big_Deal_Instruction_Manual.pdf
All the contacts are centered. I get continuity from first through fourth player positions from the coin unit to the ball count step up. I added four players as a test and it took about 5 drains to get past the first player's first ball. Then after that it took two drains to move from player to player.
Here are some other things to check..
1. A make break switch on the Outhole Relay
2. A normally closed switch on the Extra Ball Relay
3. A normally open switch on the Ball Index Relay
4. Score motor switch 1B
Because my eyesight isn't great, I like to remove the bottom board from williams games when working on checking them out. It only takes 5 minutes, but it's worth it.
Those all check out fine except for the make brake switch. When I put a probe on the yellow side and another on the red green it doesn't matter if the outhole relay is energized or not. I get continuity either way. It looks like some wires have been replaced because not all the wires are cloth. I'm not sure if I tested incorrectly or if there's something wrong with that relay.
You may getting continuity through a downstream relay. I'd concentrate on cleaning the contacts and making sure these switch are adjusted properly. I use a revlon nail file because they tend not to wear out. I own some williams games and it is common to see cloth and plastic coated wires used on the same relay.
I forgot to mention that the result above was the same whether the ball index relay was energized or not. I have cleaned some of the switches using sandpaper but I think I need a better tool. I'll clean the rest of the switches in the circuit and adjust.
No. The coin and ball count look clean and have what appears to be Teflon gel on the circuit board. I wasn't sure if that would that be a problem. The player unit is the snowshoe style so I'm not sure it's clean all the way through. What I can see looks clean.
I have it set to ohms but it has a setting to beep if it makes a circuit. I'll try looking at the values instead of listening for the beep. Thanks.
Hi paddlepaw +
I could make up a theory to the fault IF Your description would be "Sometimes" --- You wrote "can reproduce the fault (One-Player-Game) again and again. So my question: You really can reproduce the fault ? Other question: The Score-Motor has the "real motor" and the cam next to the real motor is the Index-Cam - when the motor does turn: ALWAYS, every turn(ing) ends in Home-Position - on the Index-Cam the switchstack plunges down --- question: Does Your Score-Motor ALWAYS stops in Home-Position ?
How about trying an "work-around" --- it is not fixing / repairing - but I wonder how Your pin behaves with the "work-around" --- "You make the Switch on Ball-Index-Relay constantly / always / permanent closed - using a short Jumper-Wire --- see the JPG.
The theory behind is an lovely feature in Bally- and Williams-Pins: EVERY Ball we launch and want to play - but accidentally we loose the ball NOT making points: The SAME ball is given (NO stepping on players - NO stepping on ball). Gottlieb is not so generous - the (lovely) feature works ONLY "First-Player-First-Ball".
In a functioning Big Deal it is impossible to loose a ball without making points --- but the engineers were so used to implementing the (lovely) feature in the pins --- they implemented it also in Big Deal --- and when we make this switch ALWAYS closed: The lovely feature does no longer work --- BUT in a functioning Big Deal the feature never can happen.
Please try this work-around and write what is happening in Your pin.
I am waiting for the information "Score-Motor stops at Home-Position - Yes or No" then I may come up with some theory. Wild guessing: Score-Motor-Switch-Cam-4-Switch-E is no good --- it is the sixth cam next to the real motor and the Switch-E is the upmost switch on the cam. Want to try: When it comes to stepping on the ball / player: Gently, manually press the upmost switchblade down - to make good contact with the second / next / the other participating Switchblade --- any better ? Greetings Rolf
I can reproduce the fault pretty consistently. It usually takes two drains. I would say 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time it can take 1-5 drains for it to move to the next player / ball.
As for stopping on the home position it always stops in one of the two notches on the index. When the motor rotates it rotates from one notch to the next so it's only spinning halfway around the index. On one of the notches the ball count always steps up. On the other notch it never steps up. I tested this theory by making the game start on the good notch and when it did the ball count worked. But on the next drain it did not because it was on the bad notch. When I started the game on the bad notch it did not advance the ball but on the second drain it did. Is the motor supposed to spin the index all the way around 360°? Or 180?
Jumping the switch on the ball index made it work 99% of the time. I ran through two games with four players and it only failed once to advance the ball count.
As for the wild guess if I jump the switch on the motor the ball count works every time. It also works if I press down on it. I tried cleaning and adjusting the switch and neither have worked. It either has to be pressed down during operation or jumped. Do I need to replace the Leaf switch altogether? Or perhaps the contacts? I get .5 to .9 ohms on it.
Hi paddlepaw
a GREAT observation You made: A different behavior in "one half revolution" compared with "other half of a revolution" --- I did not think of this possibility. With this "difference depending on which half is doing the work": We can explain the "once fine - once faulty" behaviour.
Another post to come about troubleshooting - in here I would like to do some theory "How does it work in an running Big Deal".
I only write about Score-Motor-Switches as they actuate when the Motor makes a turn (in Gottlieb pins a turn means a third of a revolution - in Bally and Williams pins a turn means half of a revolution). In the JPG You see burgundy-red text "init, one, two, two-long, three, four-alpha, four-B, five" --- when the motor makes a turn - along the time-axis "init" happens - shortly after "one" happens - shortly after "two" happens etc.
You loose the ball - it rolls into the Outhole and closes the "Outhole-Switch (init)" - the motor at this moment does not run so "Switch-Ind-D (init)" is closed --- there are some bonus on the bonus-ladder - straight horizontal in the JPG the "Bonus-Relay" is made pulling (it should be named 'lets count down the bonus-ladder Relay'). It stay pulling - calls for help of the Score-Motor and the Bonus-Ladder is stepped down. In the end the Bonus-Unit opens an two-bladed switch and makes the Bonus-Relay drop-out. Also the Bonus-Unit moves the threebladed Switch --- init, init - the Outhole-Relay is made pulling. The pulling Outhole-Relay makes the Motor run and so come "one, eventually stepping on the ball" - "two, stepping on the players" - "two-long, resetting Drop-Down-Targets" - "three, making an pulling Tilt-Relay to stop pulling" - "four-alpha, making the Ball-Index-Relay quit pulling" - "four-B, kicking the ball over to the Shooter-Alley" - "five, the switch opens so the Outhole-Relay quits pulling" - the end of a well-designed "sequence / succession". Greetings Rolf
Hi paddlepaw
troubleshooting --- we keep in mind that we may get back to and do the "workaround-solution" - but lets try to fix the pin.
When I was studying the schematics I came to (JPG in post-29) "burgundy-red four-alpha" and the switch just above named "Outhole Re" (interesting part of the switch drawn closed).
On top of the JPG we see the burgundy red "one and two". For proper function on "one and two": The Ball-Index-Relay MUST be pulling so the two shots of electricity can be fired (one, two). THEN the Ball-Index-Relay is allowed to "quit pulling". The engineers made the switch on Outhole-Relay - it opens when the relay is pulling-in - but this would be too early - so the engineers made a "delay" --- they have a connection wiring also through "burgundy red four-alpha" to make the Ball-Index-Relay stay pulling until the burgundy red one and two are made".
When I was studying the schematics I said "When I have the Motor accidentally beeing stopped faulty - accidentally in position "Switch-MB-4-E, four-alpha" is faulty actuated: The pulling-in of the Outhole-Relay (then) makes the Ball-Index-Relay quit pulling immediately - the fault happens.
Unplug the main power cord - then first try to tighten the screws on the switchstack on cam-called-four - then clean (flexstone of very fine sandpaper) the contact-points on Switch-E. Then (pin is unplugged) grab the nylon cam(s) and manually turn the cams in the same direction as the real motor turns them - turn until Switchstack-cam-called-four actuates. Yes, the middle blade must have moved downwards - moved away from topmost switchblade --- but it shall stay close - truely opening - Yes --- but the gap shall be small / narrow. Adjust the topmost blade. Greetings Rolf
Adjusting switch 4e worked! Thank you. It's nice to play an actual normal game for once.
For the most part it's changing the player but sometimes the stepper coil doesn't seem to fully fire on the player unit. It seems to move freely when I activate it manually. However it seems to have more tension for the later players. I'm not sure if that's normal or not. I will try to work on that later but if anyone has any suggestions I'll take them.
Hi paddlepaw
great - You could fix /adjust Motor-switch-4E.
The Player-Unit has two coils - the "Step-Up Coil" to step from Player-1 to Player-2, Player-2 to Player-3, Player-3 to Player-4 --- and the Reset-Coil to step from Player-2 back to Player-1 (two-Player-Game), Player-3 back to Player-1 (three Player-Game), Player-4 back to Player-1 (four Player-Game). And somewhat strange to us in a ONE-Player-Game the Reset-Stepper on the Unit does fire --- Player-1 back to Player-1 - strange but happening.
What force / power makes the Unit step-up ? The pulling coil ?
What force / power makes the Unit reset ? The pulling coil ? (((See end of this post)))
Please give more details --- not functioning ONLY when stepping up ? --- not functioning ONLY when resetting ? --- or on "both" ?
Please use word "rare - seldom - sometimes - often - most-of-the-time" stepping from what to what (example: Often in Player-2 back to Player-1)? Depending on the fault "what to what etc." and "how dirty is the Unit": We may have to clean the Unit --- maybe we just try "tightening the spring wound around the axis on the Unit" or opposite "loosening ...". Please write about the fault in detail. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: The Unit does step-up when the coil quits pulling --- the retaining spring pulling back the plunger on the step-up side - this spring PULLS and fights with the "spring wound around the axis".
The Unit does reset (step down) due to the tension in the "spring wound around the axis".
It's the Step Up coil. It's working some of the time. I'd say 75%. Most of the time it has trouble switching from Player 1 to player 2. What I can see is that the step up coil plunger doesn't get pulled all the way in when it's not working. Sometimes it seems as though it barely moves at all. It works fine when I actuate it manually. I decided to clean motor switch 2b, adjusted how you instructed me to adjust the faulty switch 4e and I tightened the switch Stack Down. None of these seem to have any effect. It only wants to work when I jump Switch 2b. The make break switch on the player reset relay that is normally closed in the path to the player unit Step Up seems okay. I've tested jumping only that switch and the problem still occurs. When I jump the motor switch 2b it works. Right now that switch is adjusted so that it's about one sixteenth of an inch or possibly less when it's not being actuated.
Hi paddlepaw
thanks for writing - the situation You describe is weird --- I am doing laundry, in Switzerland it is now midnight - I must finish doing laundry - so I must say: I do brood over / chew over the problem - will write tomorrow. Greetings Rolf
Hi paddlepaw
I was hoping You write about "AAA" or "BBB" and we could try a little trick - unfortunately it is more complicated.
AAA - the RESET-Step - it works fine in an 4-Player-Game resetting in one huge step down / back from Player-4 to Player-1 --- it works most of the time in an 3-Player-Game resetting from Player-3 to Player-1--- it often does not function in a 2-Player-Game resetting from Player-2 to Player-1.
Worth to try in this situation: Tightening the "spring wound around the axis" - unhook the spring and make a turn tightening, then hook-on the spring. (((Maybe one turn - maybe two turns)))
BBB - the STEP-UP - it works fine stepping from Player-1 up to Player-2 --- it works most of the time stepping from Player-2 up to Player-3 --- it often does not function stepping from Player-3 to Player-4.
Worth to try in this situation: Loosen the spring wound around the axis (((maybe one turn - maybe two turns))).
Unfortunately You have another description --- sometimes the plunger on the step-up side barely moves. I cannot see in the schematics a reason why it should happen mostly when trying to step from Player-1 to Player-2.
See the first JPG --- I would have a good look at "my rosa / pink" stuff. The schematics are drawn abstract / beautyful --- the wiring in reality in the pin is a bit different --- in an pin there is NEVER a fork-off from a connecting wire --- ALWAYS an solder-lug on a switchblade or an solder-lug on a coil is used for the "fork-off". Grab the wires on the solder-lugs and gently pull - truely / good soldered-on ? Clean the switches.
The "stepping UP" on the Player-Unit uses a lot of the wiring as the "reset" --- but for the pin the reset is an easyer task --- so I would look at all "my rosa / pink stuff".
I say "better an work-around and we can play" - "better than having a pin we cannot play" --- see the second JPG: I have mounted (Yes, it is ugly) two doorbell-pushbuttons on my "Gottlieb Far Out" --- it is not an work-around - it is to do a "handycap race" - playing with an friend who never / seldom plays pinball --- HE IS ALLOWED to open the Gate on the right on the Playfield as well as open the Ball-Return on the left of the Playfield (pushing the buttons) --- so playing is easyer for him ...
On the right in the second JPG we see a better solution on my Williams Jolly Roger --- the doorbell-pushbuttons are mounted inside the cabinet ...
So when we do not succed in fixing Your pin: An work-around - we force (by pushing the button) the Player-Up-Coil to fire when we see the pin did not step. Greetings Rolf
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:I was hoping You write about "AAA" or "BBB" and we could try a little trick
AAA - the reset step always works no matter how many players there are.
BBB - the Step Up only has trouble of working when switching from player one to player 2. I ended up loosening the spring in the attached photo that my finger is pointing to and now it's working. The spring is located on the player unit. I'm not sure if that is going to be a temporary fix or not but it's working flawlessly.
I also I checked the lugs and they seemed solidly soldered.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in for helping out.
Thanks for this assistance. My Big Deal will not step back from 4 to 1 but it will step back in all other player modes so I will be using this thread as a guide.
Hi MD_Pinball_Dude
How about starting a new topic (?) --- new is always good, attractive. A good description in post-1 --- not stepping back from 4 to 1 --- hmm, the title (here in this old topic) says Ball-Count (-Unit), Player (-Unit).
What unit ? Only ? at start-up ? when playing 1, 2, 3,4 player games ?
Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- step up and down manually - does this work ? Greetings Rolf
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