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» 1977 Big Deal Horseshoe Not Scoring Correctly

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1977 Big Deal Horseshoe Not Scoring Correctly

By paddlepaw

6 years ago

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24 posts
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Latest reply 6 years ago by Beatnik-Filmstar
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Big Deal Williams, 1977

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#1 6 years ago

JLG

I've been troubleshooting this and I'm stumped now. I've rolled over all the aces to light all four lights on the horseshoe. When the Horseshoe rollover gets triggered it's scores 30,000 points and the next time it's scores 40,000 like it should and this cycle repeats perfectly until the end of time. I narrowed it down to the ace of diamonds. I've traced the paths where the diamond relay is between motor switch 2d and the rollover relay switch and I get continuity. I've also traced where it goes "to br-b at c2" and switches 3d, 4d and 5e seem to work fine. See attached photos for the paths I'm referring to. What am I missing? I'd be grateful for any help. Thank you.

20c (resized).PNG

2c (resized).PNG

#2 6 years ago

MJG

Mikala

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 78,800 1,390

Sorry, a little confused on what exactly the question/ problem is. Are you saying, that with all 4 aces lit, the horseshoe scores 40k, then 30k, then 40k, then 30k again?

#3 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Yes. The horseshoe switch on the play field triggers the rollover relay which causes the motor to turn. The first turn the diamond will score 10k. The next time the horseshoe switch is triggered it runs the motor but it won't score 10k for the lit diamond. So in my example with all Aces lit it will score 30000 points the first time the switch is triggered and then 40,000 next time.

#4 6 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

Bear with me. I'm trying to recall the gameplay on 77 Big Deal.

So you plunge a ball and it drops through one of the Ace rollovers and the horseshoe then becomes worth 10,000 pts. As you collect the other Ace rollovers, the point value of the horseshoe is supposed to increase by 10,000 with each added Ace; is that correct?

What happens if you rollover only the Ace of Diamonds? Does the horseshoe then score 10,000 pts the first time you collect it and then 0 points the next time, and then back to 10,000, and then back to 0, and so on?

Finally, how far does the score motor revolve when actuated by the horseshoe switch? I assume it is the same number, independent of how many Aces are lit?

#5 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Bear with me. I'm trying to recall the gameplay on 77 Big Deal.

That's how it works and that's exactly my problem.

The ace of hearts and Ace of Diamonds rollovers are tied together so that if you roll through one of them it lights the other. I don't think that has anything to do with it but who knows.

#6 6 years ago

MJG

Mikala

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 78,800 1,390

He has the game set to liberal settings, so the only two possible score points in the horseshoe should be 20k or 40k.

#7 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

I'll look into that. Thanks.

#8 6 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

OP
Quoted from paddlepaw:
That's how it works and that's exactly my problem.
The ace of hearts and Ace of Diamonds rollovers are tied together so that if you roll through one of them it lights the other. I don't think that has anything to do with it but who knows.

So, it sounds like you have it set for 3 ball play?

Does the score motor make 1/2 revolution when activated by the horseshoe?
If so, based on your troubleshooting that led you to conclude the Ace of diamonds circuit was at fault, my wild guess was going to be that one of the 2 notches in the #2 score motor cam (that pulses the 10,000-pt relay) was gunked up and not allowing the switch at position 2D to fully close on every other 1/2 revolution.

#9 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:So, it sounds like you have it set for 3 ball play?

Yes it's 3 ball.

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Does the score motor make 1/2 revolution when activated by the horseshoe?

Yes.

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
If so, based on your troubleshooting that led you to conclude the Ace of diamonds circuit was at fault, my wild guess was going to be that one of the 2 notches in the #2 score motor cam (that pulses the 10,000-pt relay) was gunked up and not allowing the switch at position 2D to fully close on every other 1/2 revolution.

I'll try cleaning it. Thanks.

#10 6 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

It's the only thing I can think of that makes sense given the symptom that the proper score is only awarded every other time. The #2 cam has 2 notches that the switch dogs will drop into when the motor rotates. The switch that pulses the 10,000-pt relay must not be making good contact on one of the 180-degree revolutions of the score motor. Could also be that the level D switch needs some tweaking. It will be difficult to see and you might need to tip the score motor up to vertical on the hinge.

#11 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Could also be that the level D switch needs some tweaking. It will be difficult to see and you might need to tip the score motor up to vertical on the hinge.

I cleaned and adjusted it because it was not working at all. Now it works every other time. Perhaps I'm not doing quite right. It's gapped open at 1/16 and is shinier than when I started. I tried sanding as level as I could.

#12 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Forgot to mention I've jumped the motor switch 2d and the result is the same. Also jumped the diamond relay switch that is between motor 2d and the rollover relay as seen in the first picture above and it does the same thing.

#13 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi paddlepaw
I agree with Runbikeskilee (post-8 and post-10) --- You say in post-12 "Have jumpered SCM-2D - no other result". Look at the bottom half of Your JPG (post-1) --- the wiring is also used when You adjust the "25 Cent Adj. Jack" to "three games for 25 Cents" --- when You adjust this --- Do You always get THREE games for 25 Cents ? Greetings Rolf

#14 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Hi Rolf, it's on Freeplay. I can look at the 25 cent jack but I think it might be a timing issue. When I adjusted motor switch 4d it worked better. Then I re-adjusted motor switch 2d and got the diamond working perfectly.

But now...when the club and spade are lit on the horseshoe they award 20k each instead of 10k. I think I'm on the right track though.

#15 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi paddlepaw
I do not understand the description and do not know where in troubleshooting You are --- every lit ace makes the adding of 10'000 points when the ball rolls through the horseshoe.
The pin set on "5 balls" we can make 10'000 or 20'000 or 30'000 or 40'000 points.

Looking at the schematics I said - hey - the SAME Score-Motor-Switches - just drawn twice on different places in the schematics --- I tried to make a drawing showing the Score-Motor-Switches drawn only once in the schematics --- see my JPG (I have not yet gone through my drawing "checking" for correct drawing - it is late and I am tired ...) Greetings Rolf

0Big-Deal-Work-08 (resized).jpg

#16 6 years ago

TWP

Beatnik-Filmstar

Pinside member

Saint Paul, MN

9y 70,150 1,318 7

Quoted from Mikala:
He has the game set to liberal settings, so the only two possible score points in the horseshoe should be 20k or 40k.

Nitpick, but this isn't right. When on 3 ball play, only the heart and diamonds are paired together. The club and spade still light independently of each other. You can still score 10, 20, 30 or 40k.

Not that I can hit that shot with any consistency anyway.

Side note to Rolf - Hello again, and yet another thanks for your help in getting mine up and running last Spring. 9 months or so later and it's all been smooth sailing.

#17 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

I got it working. The reason it was scoring extra on the club and Spade was because one of those relays was jumped due to prior testing. Oops. It came down to adjusting motor switch 4d so that there was continuity when motor switch 2D for the diamond was closed when the motor turned. It's supposed to be normally closed and it was but just not enough I suppose. Thank you everyone for your help.

#18 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

on another note, I find it ironic that the guy with the horse picture in his profile had trouble figuring out the horseshoe.

#19 6 years ago

MJG

Mikala

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 78,800 1,390

Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:
Nitpick, but this isn't right. When on 3 ball play, only the heart and diamonds are paired together. The club and spade still light independently of each other. You can still score 10, 20, 30 or 40k.
Not that I can hit that shot with any consistency anyway.
Side note to Rolf - Hello again, and yet another thanks for your help in getting mine up and running last Spring. 9 months or so later and it's all been smooth sailing.

Nitpick is accepted. I was to lazy to pull out my manual and had second thoughts after I posted it that I was wrong.

#20 6 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

Great that you got it playing properly. The bane of EM pinball is the switch that "looks" like it is making good contact, but is still not conducting.

#21 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

Yep. I really learned that I need to test continuity for the full motor rotation.

#22 6 years ago

TWP

Beatnik-Filmstar

Pinside member

Saint Paul, MN

9y 70,150 1,318 7

Quoted from Mikala:
Nitpick is accepted. I was to lazy to pull out my manual and had second thoughts after I posted it that I was wrong.

Well I'm still open to learning how to hit that shot with regularity. (Get good and aim better.)

Now I find myself curious as to what would happen if you pull the glass and manually press the horseshoe rollover with no lights lit. I assume nothing - why would it - but I'm curious regardless.

#23 6 years ago

JLG

paddlepaw

Pinside member

7y 64,550 262

I have a hard time making that shot with the left flipper but found out if you can trap it on the right flipper you can backhand it to the left side of the horseshoe without too much trouble. Sometimes it'll hit the pop bumper and enter the right side unexpectedly.

With no lights lit on the Horseshoe if you hit the switch it makes the motor turn but nothing gets scored.

#24 6 years ago

TWP

Beatnik-Filmstar

Pinside member

Saint Paul, MN

9y 70,150 1,318 7

OP
Quoted from paddlepaw:
I have a hard time making that shot with the left flipper but found out if you can trap it on the right flipper you can backhand it to the left side of the horseshoe without too much trouble. Sometimes it'll hit the pop bumper and enter the right side unexpectedly.
With no lights lit on the Horseshoe if you hit the switch it makes the motor turn but nothing gets scored.

You know, I don't think I've ever tried to backhand it from the right. I think I reflexively aim for the left orbit to put the ball back up top when it's on the right flipper. Either hope to finish off the cards to double the bonus, or take the relatively easy 5k orbit shot.

Most of my horseshoe "shots" come from the rightmost bumper knocking it through there.

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