1976 Williams Aztec Multiplayer Issues

0

#1 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

I'm back to working on my Aztec, trying to solve some multiplayer issues. Hoping someone here can assist.

Single player game works as it should, no problems. When I start a multiplayer game, the following occurs:

The game cycles through all 4 players, allowing them to play Ball 1. When the 4th player drains Ball 1, the game stays on Player 4, Ball 1, and never resets as it should to Player 1, and does not advance to Ball 2.

(borrowed this from one of rolf_martin's comments in another thread)

Situation A: player-1-ball-1 -> player-2-ball-1 -> p-3-b-1 -> p-4-b-1 (-> p-4-b-1 and on and on ?) ?

I checked during a 1-Player game, and each time the ball drains, the Player Reset Relay functions as it should, pulling in for a short time as the ball advances from Ball 1 thru 5. During 2-, 3-, or 4-Player games, the Player Reset Relay NEVER fires, which I'm guessing is a sign of the problem.

Additionally, even if I only press the start/reset button twice or three times (starting a 2-Player or 3-Player game), the game will cycle through to Player 4 and get stuck on Ball 1 as described above. Note: the Coin Unit properly advances, so the "1 Can Play", "2 Can Play", etc. lights as it should and Coin Unit seems to be fine, so I do not believe that is the issue.

Thoughts? Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Quick Edit: I did some additional testing and sometimes a 2-Player game will function normally. Other times it will do as described above and cycle through to Player 4 and get stuck, even though the Coin Unit is in the correct position and "2 Can Play" is lit.

0

#2 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
Your problems are in the "encircled red" area. How would You implement in a pin the different stepping in different games - a 1-player-game, next game is a 3-player-game. Sometimes stepping to next ball - sometimes only stepping to next player.
Think of (You) riding on the freeway - AND You miss an exit (THE exit) --- You then may show some strange behaviour.

The Bally / Williams Solution is beautyful. They say "facts are:"
- When playing a 2,3,4-player game - when the Ball-Count-Unit "must / does" step-up: The Player-Unit MUST return to Player-1.
- When playing a 2,3,4-player game - when the Ball-Count-Unit "must NOT / does NOT" step-up: The Player-Unit MUST step-up to the next Player.
- Kicking the very-first ball over to the Shooter-Alley we will handle separate.
- Reaching "Game-Over" we will handle separate.
- We can handle a ONE-Player game exactly like a 2,3,4-player-game - (we do not tell anybody) - we accept the (not needed) action: Ball-Count-Unit DOES step-up and then NOT needed: Player-Unit tries to return from "Player-1 position" to "Player-1 position". We accept this "useless / not needed" action on the Player-Unit as it does NO HARM.

So "encircled red" (kind of missing the exit on the freeway): A connection between Player-Unit and Coin-Unit is NOT made - and then comes the strange behaviour.

This happens at the end of every "ball played": "Encircled light-green" - in some way the Outhole-Relay gets activated - the Outhole-Relay lets the Score-Motor run, the Score-Motor FIRES TWO SHOTS of electricity - first towards the "Ball-Count-Step-up Coil" - second (a bit later) towards the "Player-Unit - not knowing if the shot reaches the Step-up-Coil or if it reaches the Reset-Coil".

IF (if) the "encircled dark-green" Ball-Count-Unit-Step-up Coil" fires: The plunger moved closes an EOS-Switch and this lets ("encircled light-blue") the Player-Reset-Relay fire (and it establishes Self-Hold-Current for a while) - also throwing an Make-and-Brake-Switch AND "encircled dark-blue": "Player-Unit is resetted to player-1".

IF (if) the "encircled dark-green" Ball-Count-Unit-Step-up Coil" does NOT fire: NO action on the Player-Reset-Relay - the second shot from the Score-Motor reaches ("encircled orange") the Player-Unit-Step-UP Coil.

You play a ONE-Player game - see my "pink / rosa wiring" FIRST SHOT, shortly afterwards "burgundy-red wiring" comes the SECOND SHOT. THIS WORKS FINE.

See the "encircled red" area - look-up in the ipdb-manual http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=119 at page-17 (ori-15) the Coin-Unit --- and on page-18 (ori-16) the Player-Unit, and the second JPG.
Look for "broken-off wire", greetings Rolf

P.S. - Do NOT forget: The Coin-Unit sits in the cabinet - and the Player-Unit sits in the Backbox - there must be connecting wires THROUGH a Jones-Plug. The ipdb-manual at page-13,14,15 (ori-11,12,13) might be of help.

0Aztec-Work-1 (resized).jpg

0Aztec-Work-2 (resized).jpg

0

#3 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Thank you rolf - I will check all of this as best I can and reply. I noticed today that the Ball Index Relay is always locked on, I need to check the schematic and see if that's normal as well.

I'll report back soon, thanks

0

#4 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
You may have a problem*** on Ball-Index-Relay - but this "maybe problem***" has nothing to do with the "not stepping correctly" problem. Look at the first JPG in post-2 - there is a "Switch on Extraball-Relay" in the circuitry --- there is an "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" in the circuitry.

The functionality is similar --- You gain an extraball - You play on - You loose the ball - NOW SAME ball shall be given: Well, the Extraball-Relay is pulling and so its switch is OPEN: No connection, no stepping.
And the thing with the Ball-Index-Relay: Williams and Bally are generous: You launch a given ball - but it drains BEFORE You can make some points - nice, the SAME ball is given (because You did not make points: The Ball-Index-Relay did NOT pull-in --- so: Its switch is OPEN: No connection, no stepping).

I look at the picture: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=119&picno=46886 - AZTEC: NO way to loose a ball WITHOUT making some points - the lovely feature (same ball is given when lost without making some points) -the lovely feature is implemented but will never take place (AZTEC).

Problem*** ? Whenever a ball is kicked-over to the Shooter-Alley and rests in the alley: NOW the Ball-Index-Relay is NOT allowed to be pulling ! You then launch the ball and make some points: NOW the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in AND STAY pulling - You play and play (pulling) ... new ball is given: NO PULLING. Greetings Rolf

0

#5 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Hi Rolf - I have noticed that I must score some points before draining a ball, otherwise the ball will not count. It's a nice feature when the ball drains too quickly. I'll have to look closely at what you said in post #4, because I have seen the game get stuck on "Same player shoots again" infinitely before, even in 1-Player, after I win an extra ball through game play.

I think I've narrowed the original problem down to the transition from Ball 1 to Ball 2. I started a 4-Player game and made some observations after the game got stuck on P-4-B-1. I manually advanced the Ball Count Unit to Ball 2. This changed the game to P-4-B-2. After scoring some points manually and draining the ball, the game progressed as it should. Meaning, when the ball drained, the game moved to P-1-B-3, and onward correctly, all the way until the final ball P-4-B-5 drained and the game went to Game Over as it should. It did not get stuck on P4 as it does each time during Ball 1 phase.

So once the ball gets past P-4-B-1, it works fine. Thoughts? Thank you

0

#6 7 years ago

???

Dr_of_Style

Inactive member

Dallas, TX

9y 28,925 1,334 12

Sticken my nose in for a thot.
have you cleaned/lubed both of those step units?
do they work correctly if you manually step them up/down?

0

#7 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Quoted from Dr_of_Style:
Sticken my nose in for a thot.
have you cleaned/lubed both of those step units?
do they work correctly if you manually step them up/down?

Hi Dr - yep, I've cleaned/lubed them and everything works fine when I manually step them (including the unit in the backbox). Always good to double check though, thank you!

0

#8 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
I worry about the last sentence in Your post-1 - the word "sometimes" (sometimes works in a two player game but sometimes NOT). This usually means: A wire has broken-off from a solder-lug --- but wires are stiff - the stay in place and so there is contact --- SOMETIMES - but then You shake the pin a bit - the broken-off end moves a thenth of an inch - NO connection - again some shaking and the broken-off end moves - contact again.
The search for such kind of problem can be very frustrating - a general rule: WHENEVER YOU LOOK at a switch or a Coil: ALSO gently grab A / the wire and gently pull a bit on the wire. Do this on EVERY wire at the location.

Tomorrow I will write about Extraball-Relay and Ball-Index-Relay - please do NOT complicate troubleshooting - please: DO NOT make Extraballs, please do make some points ON EVERY BALL - You must have the Ball-Index-Relay "pulling steady" when You let the ball drain AS WE WANT TO TROUBLESHOOT THE STEPPING OF SOME UNITS.
In Switzerland it is 20 minutes past midnight - time to go to sleep. Here a picture of what sometimes happens on a friends "Jubilee" - a ball drains without making points - and the ball is given again - same ball - NO stepping. Greetings Rolf

ipdb-Jubilee-Playfield (resized).jpg

0

#9 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi MaxAsh
I worry about the last sentence in Your post-1 - the word "sometimes" (sometimes works in a two player game but sometimes NOT). This usually means: A wire has broken-off from a solder-lug --- but wires are stiff - the stay in place and so there is contact --- SOMETIMES - but then You shake the pin a bit - the broken-off end moves a thenth of an inch - NO connection - again some shaking and the broken-off end moves - contact again.

Hi Rolf - I just tested 2 Player and 3 Player games. I always score 7000 pts (which is enough to make sure the ball advances and does not give the ball to the same player again, I have tested this in the 1-Player game as well). Here were the results of testing 2 Player and 3 Player games:

2 Player game - worked fine 5 straight games, no issues. Before I started testing/cleaning things, 1 out of 5 games would advance to Player 4 and get stuck as described in my original post. This does not seem to be happening anymore, but I will test more just in case

3 Player game - First time I set it to 3 Player game, after P-3-B-1 drained, the game switched back to P-1-B-1. After I played through Ball 1 again on all 3 players, it properly advanced to P-1-B-2 and played the rest of the 5 Balls correctly with no issues. I played (4) more 3 Player games, and this never happened again. All games played normally.

4 Player game - still the same issue I mentioned above, always gets stuck on P-4-B-1. I tried scoring extra points just in case, no change.

I'll go give a tug to all the wires on each lug/attachment point to check them. I found that the wire coming off the Total Play meter was disconnected and hanging loose, but I do not believe that is related.

Last note: I tested the extra ball function before I read your note. It worked fine in 1 Player and 2 Player modes, so let's not worry about that for now.

Sleep well Rolf, talk to you tomorrow.

0

1

#10 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
we (means You) may have to check a lot of solder-lugs WHEN the "sometimes" persists.

THIS post is some theory - You well can "not do" the suggested tests - You well can say "the stuff works".
May I read from Your posts "Everything works fine BUT NOT the '4-player-game, end of P-4-B-1' as then the pin stucks***, see end of post" ? I would like to put "aside / away" the "stucks*** problem" for a while and make sure "Ball-Index-Relay and Extraball-Relay work 100% as should".

The JPG shows a lot of stuff (later) - for now only look at "encircled brown" and "encircled burgundy-red on the bottom of the JPG".
"encircled brown, switches to close" - Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 10 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 10 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 100 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 100 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 1000 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 1000 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
(((I want You to guarantee: At the time the first points are made: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling)))

"encircled burgundy-red, switches to open" - shame on Williams - the 10 point-relay and 100 and 1000) has ANOTHER SWITCH TO OPEN - tricky: WE must have the two switches "adjusted / timed": FIRST the (burgundy-red) Switch MUST open - "truely, definite" AFTERWARDS*** the (brown) Switch is allowed to close. IF (if) this "my requirement / demand - first / then" does NOT work: You would have problems with the Extraball-Feature - as a given Extraball would not be "turned-off".
From Your posts I read: Maybe there was a problem but now it works. Lets test it.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling THEN (only, manually) activate the Extraball-Relay (press the armature / anchor-plate) - the Extraball-Relay MUST stay pulling because:
"burgundy-red" switches are all closed - and the (encircled dark-blue) "Self-Hold-Switch on Extraball-Relay" (now) is closed so the Extraball-Relay is constantly pulling.
Suspense, suspense - NOW do make 10 points - I expect the Extraball-Relay to QUIT pulling and immediately AFTER THAT (I expect) the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in and stay pulling - question: WHAT happens in Your pin ?

Look it up in the JPG - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling - "6" is open, You manually activate the armature - so You close "2", the Relay "1" pulls-in, stays pulling as "2, 3, 4, 5" are closed.
You make 10 points - "3" opens, "1" looses current and let go and so "2" opens - and AFTERWARDS the closing 10 points relay activates the Ball-Index-Relay - so "6" closes --- but (hihi) the "2" is open so there cannot be a connection feeding the "1".

Shame on Williams, AFTERWARDS*** ??? : It is NOT that critical because "brown switch and burgundy-red switch" operate at the same time --- but to close the "6": Coil on Ball-Index-Relay must get current and the Ball-Index-Relay must start pulling AND THE armature must be MOVED (time consuming) and THEN the "6, switch" closes. THIS ACTION on Ball-Index-Relay pulling-in makes the timing "not so critical".
Greetings Rolf
P.S. - pin stucks***: Can You reproduce the fault ? Does it happen EVERY time ? I am irritated because the Ball-Count-Unit is NOT "an influence in decisions on stepping" --- because of "what decision is made on stepping-questions" - that decision may let the Ball-Count-Unit be stepped.
At end of P-4-B-1 look at the "Player-Unit-STEP-UP-COIL" - does it fire ? (I guess so).

Aztec-Work-3 (resized).jpg

0

#11 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
this post is about "really looking at" --- I refer to post-2, JPG, encircled red, the connections Player-Unit to Coin-Unit. The problem "4 players want to play, end of P-4-B-1, NO stepping".

The Coin-Unit (in this situation) is NOT involved - there is NO connection drawn in the schematics at "Coin-Unit 4 to 4" --- there is an connection (4 to 4) on Player-Unit: Wire-Blue-Red then a wiper then a wiper then Wire-Red-White connecting to "far away". Are the snow-shoe-wipers clean and ride good on the rivets ? wires soldered-on ?
How about the Jones-Plugs ? Especially wire-Red-White ?

My JPGs shall show "where to look at in the ipdb-manual" - I am glad the pin we do trouble-shoot is an "rather late WILLIAMS" - I happen to like the schematics AND the manual. Greetings Rolf

Williams_1976_Aztec_Instruction_Manual_18-mod (resized).jpg

Williams_1976_Aztec_Instruction_Manual_13 (resized).jpg

0

#12 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Hi Rolf - thank you for all the info and suggested testing. I will do it now and report back my results. I have the original manual and schematics on hand, and I agree, they are detailed and some of the best out of all the EM pins I have worked on. I will reply to the thread as soon as I have performed the tests you requested.

0

#13 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi MaxAsh
we (means You) may have to check a lot of solder-lugs WHEN the "sometimes" persists.
THIS post is some theory - You well can "not do" the suggested tests - You well can say "the stuff works".
May I read from Your posts "Everything works fine BUT NOT the '4-player-game, end of P-4-B-1' as then the pin stucks***, see end of post" ? I would like to put "aside / away" the "stucks*** problem" for a while and make sure "Ball-Index-Relay and Extraball-Relay work 100% as should".
The JPG shows a lot of stuff (later) - for now only look at "encircled brown" and "encircled burgundy-red on the bottom of the JPG".
"encircled brown, switches to close" - Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 10 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 10 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 100 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 100 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 1000 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 1000 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
(((I want You to guarantee: At the time the first points are made: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling)))
"encircled burgundy-red, switches to open" - shame on Williams - the 10 point-relay and 100 and 1000) has ANOTHER SWITCH TO OPEN - tricky: WE must have the two switches "adjusted / timed": FIRST the (burgundy-red) Switch MUST open - "truely, definite" AFTERWARDS*** the (brown) Switch is allowed to close. IF (if) this "my requirement / demand - first / then" does NOT work: You would have problems with the Extraball-Feature - as a given Extraball would not be "turned-off".
From Your posts I read: Maybe there was a problem but now it works. Lets test it.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling THEN (only, manually) activate the Extraball-Relay (press the armature / anchor-plate) - the Extraball-Relay MUST stay pulling because:
"burgundy-red" switches are all closed - and the (encircled dark-blue) "Self-Hold-Switch on Extraball-Relay" (now) is closed so the Extraball-Relay is constantly pulling.
Suspense, suspense - NOW do make 10 points - I expect the Extraball-Relay to QUIT pulling and immediately AFTER THAT (I expect) the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in and stay pulling - question: WHAT happens in Your pin ?
Look it up in the JPG - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling - "6" is open, You manually activate the armature - so You close "2", the Relay "1" pulls-in, stays pulling as "2, 3, 4, 5" are closed.
You make 10 points - "3" opens, "1" looses current and let go and so "2" opens - and AFTERWARDS the closing 10 points relay activates the Ball-Index-Relay - so "6" closes --- but (hihi) the "2" is open so there cannot be a connection feeding the "1".
Shame on Williams, AFTERWARDS*** ??? : It is NOT that critical because "brown switch and burgundy-red switch" operate at the same time --- but to close the "6": Coil on Ball-Index-Relay must get current and the Ball-Index-Relay must start pulling AND THE armature must be MOVED (time consuming) and THEN the "6, switch" closes. THIS ACTION on Ball-Index-Relay pulling-in makes the timing "not so critical".
Greetings Rolf
P.S. - pin stucks***: Can You reproduce the fault ? Does it happen EVERY time ? I am irritated because the Ball-Count-Unit is NOT "an influence in decisions on stepping" --- because of "what decision is made on stepping-questions" - that decision may let the Ball-Count-Unit be stepped.
At end of P-4-B-1 look at the "Player-Unit-STEP-UP-COIL" - does it fire ? (I guess so).

Hi Rolf, I will try to reply to each test with the results, please see below, thank you

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 10 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 10 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 100 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 100 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling, THEN make 1000 points (on the playfield of by manually activating the 1000 point relay) - the Ball-Index-Relay MUST pull-in and STAY pulling.
(((I want You to guarantee: At the time the first points are made: Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling)))

All of these tests were successful and actions were as you described. So this is good.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Start a 1-player-game ... ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley - Ball-Index-Relay is not yet pulling THEN (only, manually) activate the Extraball-Relay (press the armature / anchor-plate) - the Extraball-Relay MUST stay pulling because:
"burgundy-red" switches are all closed - and the (encircled dark-blue) "Self-Hold-Switch on Extraball-Relay" (now) is closed so the Extraball-Relay is constantly pulling.
Suspense, suspense - NOW do make 10 points - I expect the Extraball-Relay to QUIT pulling and immediately AFTER THAT (I expect) the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in and stay pulling - question: WHAT happens in Your pin ?

I could not get this test to work. The first part, as tested above is okay (Start 1 Player game, ball kicked to shooter alley, Ball Index Relay Not pulling).

When I press the armature for the Extra Ball Relay, it does not stay in. The "Same Player Shoots again" will light, but only while I hold the armature down manually. When I let go, the relay releases, it will not stay pulled.

I am able to get the Extra Ball Relay to stay pulled by activating the necessary switches on the playfield that light and award an extra ball, but the test you suggested won't keep it pulled.

0

#14 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
I am surprised - positively surprised --- You want the pin 100% factory-made running. I was expecting You to skip post-10 and "dig-in into post-11".

I make the definitions "Ball-gaining-XB" is the ball You are playing - You play well and You gain an Extraball (to come). You play and play the "Ball-gaining-XB" - You make more points but then You loose it. Bonus-Ladder is counted down (and the points given) - the "AZTEC feature-bulbs" do turn-off, the pin kicks a ball over (NOT stepping on Player-Unit / Ball-Count-Unit) - You now have the "gained-XB" (gained Extraball is given) in the Shooter-Alley. You launch the ball and You play the "gained-XB" and after a while You loose the ball.

Whatever reason (?) Williams said at the time manufacturing the AZTEC: At the time a ball gains an Extraball (Ball-gaining-XB) immediately the "Same-Player Shoot Again Lites" turn on - they stay lit - You play on (stay lit) - You loose Ball-gaining-XB (stay lit) - Bonus-Ladder is counted down (stay lit) - Ball is kicked over (stay lit) - You launch the "gained-XB" (stay lit) - the "gained-XB" ball makes some points - NOW the "Same-Player Shoot Again Lites" do turn off.

I believe: YOUR "Same-Player Shoot Again Lites" will be turned off "AT THE TIME" the "gained-XB" is kicked-over to the Shooter-Alley (am I right ?).

The reason for this "imperfection" is post-10, JPG, bottom, "burgundy-red" the connection through 3,4,5 --- it is (only) an imperfection - not a fault.

IF (if) You want to start on this imperfection: ipdb-manual-page-30 (ori-28), 10 point-Relay, Switch-2C, on the previous page: Switch-2B on 1000 point relay and Switch-2B on 100 point relay.

One of these switches is maladjusted or acontact-point is dirty or a wire has broken-off. And (of course) the "wire to Extraball-Relay" may be faulty, wire may have broken-off at the "Switch on Extraball-Relay". Greetings Rolf

0

#15 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi MaxAsh
I am surprised - positively surprised --- You want the pin 100% factory-made running. I was expecting You to skip post-10 and "dig-in into post-11".

Hi Rolf - Haha sorry to surprise you like that, I have been busy the past day or so, and those Extra Ball/Ball Index tests were quick and easy so I did them first. I will now dig into the next items you mentioned. I will try to reply to each item again below.

At end of P-4-B-1 look at the "Player-Unit-STEP-UP-COIL" - does it fire ? (I guess so).

Yes, when the ball is stuck on P-4-B-1 the Player Unit Step UP coil fires, instead of the Player Unit Reset coil to reset it back to Player 1

this post is about "really looking at" --- I refer to post-2, JPG, encircled red, the connections Player-Unit to Coin-Unit. The problem "4 players want to play, end of P-4-B-1, NO stepping".

The Coin-Unit (in this situation) is NOT involved - there is NO connection drawn in the schematics at "Coin-Unit 4 to 4" --- there is an connection (4 to 4) on Player-Unit: Wire-Blue-Red then a wiper then a wiper then Wire-Red-White connecting to "far away". Are the snow-shoe-wipers clean and ride good on the rivets ? wires soldered-on ?
How about the Jones-Plugs ? Especially wire-Red-White ?

I checked all of the Player Unit lugs you suggested, as well as the rest of them, and all seem to be soldered on well and making connection. I checked the wipers/rivets, cleaned them again and lubed them lightly again to ensure smooth movement. I then removed the Jones connector you mentioned and re-cleaned it, then re-inserted it.

Now I have different results (I tested each of these 5 straight times):

1-Player Game - Works as it should
2-Player Game - Works as it should
3-Player Game - Works for Ball in Play 2 through 5, but on Ball in Play 1 it gives Player 4 one turn only, very strange. Details below.
4-Player Game - Works as it should!

3-Player Game details: Here is the sequence for 3-Player Game now:

P-1-B1, P-2-B-1, P-3-B-1, P-4-B-1
P-1-B2, P-2-B-2, P-3-B-2,
Rest of the game works as it should.
Only the P-4-B-1 is incorrect, it does not go back to P4 after that initial time mentioned above.

0

#16 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
up to post-14 I was "95% knowing / 5% guessing" - not pleasing: Right now I do "maybe 10% knowing / 90% guessing" --- so have a look at what I suggest --- BUT do not spend hours trying again and again.

(Positive thinking) I assume by checking the Jones-Plugs (plugging in and out) - You may have cleaned the Jones-Plug so the 4-player-game NOW works as should.

Problem 3-player-game - again: I do not see how the Ball-Count-Unit can / (could) be involved. I now relay a bit on "little gremlins".
Again the important question: Fault happens EVERY time You start a 3-player-game - EVERY-time the pin steps P-3-B-1 to P-4-B-1 (instead of "to P-1-B-2") ???

"Wild guessing": Maybe the Spring on the COIN-Unit is turned to much - spring is too tight - at start of a game the Coin-Unit is resetted to (Zero-Position means) Player-1-Position. Then starting for player-2: Coin-Unit is stepped-UP (spring is wound and gets more tension) --- then starting for player-3: Coin-Unit is stepped-UP (spring is wound more and gets even more tension) --- then starting for player-4: Coin-Unit is stepped-UP (spring is again wound more and gets even even more tension).
Wild guessing: In the beginning the tooth to step up the wheel struggles to "turn the wheel / step-up" --- when playing and wiggling and shaking the pin: the tooth successfully struggles and the Coin-Unit finally REALLY steps-up (well, wild guessing).

Look at post-2, first JPG - "encircled red" - connection through the Coin-Unit is NEEDED in a 1-player-game, in a 2-player-game, in a 3-player-game --- IS NOT NEEDED IN A 4-PLAYER-GAME.
The "tension in the spring is built-up (none - first player-pos., a bit - 2nd player-pos., strong - 3rd player-pos., very strong - 4th player-pos).
Look at the 2nd JPG - that short, curved RED line on the two wipers (on the left of the unit) - the JPG shows: ONE-Player-Game. In Your mind make two steps counterclockwise - see how in a 3-player-game there are connected: "wire-R-G-Number-3" connected with "wire-R-W-conn".
Please investigate there - When the pin is turned-on and a game is started for a 3-player-game: You are allowed to grab the two wipers (with the curved-red-line connected to each other) - grab and wiggle a bit - turn a bit clockwise - turn a bit counterclockwise.

Doing so - question: Does the pin acts different ?

Do have a look at THERE - maybe for five to ten minutes - a bit of wiggling, a bit looking how the Coin-Unit steps up when You start a game for 2,3 (,4) players. NO need to spend hours - You are checking a "rather wild guessing". Greetings Rolf

0

#17 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Hi Rolf - the springs are all in rough condition on this pin. Almost all of them have been "stretched" out to make them tighter, I assume because many of them are original, or very old springs. I ordered some replacements and replaced a few of them, but not all of them yet. It's quite possible that the spring tension is incorrect on one or more of the steppers, so I will inspect each carefully and try to adjust them as needed. It's hard because knowing the exact tension that a multi-spring stepper needs is difficult. Some of the "replacement kits" I have received do not seem to match the stepper springs that are in place currently, which is even more concerning to me.

I will do the testing you mentioned in post #16 and reply back when I'm done. I'm guessing it's getting late where you are, so if I do not post back soon we can pick this up again tomorrow if you're around on the forums. Thank you again for all the tips/advice, we're getting closer and closer on this pin.

0

#18 7 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi MaxAsh
the JPG here shows the Replay-Counter on my "Shangri La" - it is a so-called "Single-Reset-Stepper" (stepping down / backwards ONE tooth / step per 'call for stepping') - The Coin-Unit and the Player-Unit and the Ball-Count-Unit are called "Total-Reset-Stepper" (one call for step down / backwards: wroaammm - COMPLETELY stepped back / down).

Both types of steppers have the SAME spring - see the green curved lines (?) - the spring is mounted on the axis - one side is hooked-on / hooked-in on the housing - then some tension is made by turning the other end of the spring around a couple of turns - THEN the other end of the spring is hooked-on / hooked-in on the (moved) wheel.

TENSION is sufficient when the Unit does (securely) step from "position-two" wroaammm to "position-one" --- the official terms to use "stepping from pos-1 down to pos-ZERO" because per definition the "downmost position is the so-called Pos-ZERO".
MORE and MORE tension is built-up as we step up to pos-1,2,3 - if the tension is sufficient to step down to pos-Zero FROM pos-1: PLENTY enough tension to step down from pos-2,-3 ...

BEFORE You unhook and loosen the tension by "unwinding a turn": DO THE WIGGLING / LOOKING AT" testing --- remember: I am running out of "knowing" - unpleasing: I start "wild guessing", greetings Rolf

2208 (resized).jpg

0

1

#19 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

I know it's been a while, but I finally got around to working on the Aztec again. It had reverted to some of the issues above, so I finally just played it as a 1-player game and stopped trying to get the multiplayer to work for a while. About a week ago, I decided to spend some time figuring it out, so I opened it up and got to working on a few things.

I focused my attention on the Ball Count Unit Disc. It's a relatively simple looking stepper, with just two wiper fingers, located in the cabinet body. I knew that something must be wrong with it because a lot of the springs had been "shortened" by a previous owner in the past. By shortened in this case, I mean they simply stretched the spring out and looped a section of it further along the spring to make it "tighter" and put more tension on it. I've noticed that a lot of owners without the skill (or desire) to clean a dirty stepper will try "fixing" it by increasing spring tension, rather than cleaning it and restoring it's mobility.

With that in mind, I took apart the stepper unit and cleaned everything. I noticed that one of the small armatures on the unit wasn't moving as freely as it should. This was preventing the unit from properly "catching" the cog on every advance. It seemed to work well during 1-player games, but struggled in multiplayer games due to the way it needed to function in those situations. Because the armature wasn't moving freely, I believe a former owner increased the spring tension, rather than clean the armature properly.

I took it off, cleaned it, lubed the metal-on-metal portion with a little super lube, and it moved perfectly after that. I reassembled the entire stepper, and put the spring back to their original tensions (undoing all the stretched out stuff someone else had done). I also unwound the spring Rolf mentions in the post above this, because it was clearly over-wound by one turn and was far too tight.

After doing all of this, I gave the game a try, and sure enough it works perfectly now. Every multiplayer mode functions as it should, advancing balls perfectly with no issues. If I had to pick the one major problem, I'd say that little sticky armature was the cause, and a former owner simply made it worse by messing with the springs instead of just fixing the stepper with a little cleaning.

I hope the above makes sense. If someone else has a similar problem, feel free to drop me a message if you need more detail or pictures of the stepper in question. Thanks to all for their help!

0

#20 7 years ago

MCD

dasvis

Pinside member

Salem, OR

12y 101K 4,796 11 16

I thought in post #7 you said all of the steppers were working perfectly?

0

#21 7 years ago

OP

CML

MaxAsh

Pinball Tycoon

8y 74,100 1,283 10

Quoted from dasvis:
I thought in post #7 you said all of the steppers were working perfectly?

Yep, and this one appeared to be. The little armature wasn't something I thought to take apart and clean in this case, as it all seemed to be moving okay after I cleaned everything else. I didn't realize that it wasn't always catching properly because when I manually advanced it, it worked fine. The various spring tension changes and the armature being a bit sticky combined into one big issue that was not as apparent as I thought it would be.

Just goes to show that because you think you checked and cleaned everything, doesn't mean you did. I'm glad I took a break from it and went back with a fresh look, found it quickly that way.

By MaxAsh

7 years ago

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