(Topic ID: 257940)

1976 Royal Flush Bonus issue (AS Relay)


By TeaHaus

3 months ago



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  • 36 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by TeaHaus
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 months ago

Hello and Merry Christmas to all the pin-addicts! Powered up my lovely RF this morning and voila, the AS Relay issue I've been reading about has reared it's head on my machine. The targets all score correctly but when the ball drains, the sequence of bonus counting goes by way too fast and no points register save for the first bonus. Am I correct in assuming it's the AS relay under the play field? I've also read on Clay's site that the A relay can sometimes be the issue. Any advice/help is greatly appreciated. A short video maybe helps illustrate the issue.

#2 3 months ago

It could be the make/break sw. on A. E is the Bonus Score relay.

Capture (resized).PNG
#3 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

It could be the make/break sw. on A. E is the Bonus Score relay.[quoted image]

Thanks for the tip curriedog! I'll have a look at that before I disassemble/clean the AS relay.

#4 3 months ago
Quoted from TeaHaus:

I'll have a look at that before I disassemble/clean the AS relay.

AS is usually for match and I don't see one in this machine.

#5 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

AS is usually for match and I don't see one in this machine.

I don't have a schematic, but from another thread it looks like they use an AS type stepper to control the bonus arrow lights and awards.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/royal-flush-bonus-arrows-not-lighting

#6 3 months ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

I don't have a schematic, but from another thread it looks like they use an AS type stepper to control the bonus arrow lights and awards.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/royal-flush-bonus-arrows-not-lighting

Yeah, I read through that thread and it's almost describing my issue but not quite. It seems all the targets score the correct points but when the ball drains, the first bonus counts (as it should) but the next four cycle through very fast (they used to stop when it counted the bonus) and they each give 1000 points. If you observe in the video, you can see it and hear it. I'm going to attempt to take apart the AS relay and clean it tomorrow or over Christmas and I'll see where I am. Thanks for any advice.

#7 3 months ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

they use an AS type stepper to control the bonus arrow lights

Right you are. If it is AS-like, it's small and a PITA. Basically check for cleanliness on the little board and tight sw.

Check the M/B on KX as well (Double Bonus)

Capture (resized).PNGCapture1 (resized).PNG
#8 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Right you are. If it is AS-like, it's small and a PITA. Basically check for cleanliness on the little board and tight sw.
Check the M/B on KX as well (Double Bonus)[quoted image][quoted image]

In the process of cleaning it right now........thanks for the advice!!

#9 3 months ago

Another question for the experts..........I'd like to see what is happening under the playfield when the bonus count is malfunctioning but when I lift the playfield, down some targets to light the bonus, and then simulate the ball draining, the lights just stay lit and 1000 points scores. Ball one is still lit. When I do the same thing (as in the video above), the ball physically drains, and the bonus count malfunctions, but ball 2 is lit. Do I have to trigger something to tell the machine the ball is drained or over?

#10 3 months ago

after ball drain you must hit switch that ball would normally trigger going back to shooter lane

#11 3 months ago

Well, unfortunately my cleaning of the "I" relay (AS type) did nothing to change the bonus scoring malfunction. I think it's time to call in a pro since I'm sure if I fiddle around enough, other things will stop working..........

#12 3 months ago

The E relay and the score motor cause the bonus count down. The O relay makes sure that the bonus is reset and ejects the ball. Seems like the O relay is firing before the bonus is done. There’s a make-break switch on the AX relay that’s involved in choosing between E and O. I’d check that. Is also figure out how to get it the happen with the playfield up because you need to see the I, E, O, and score motor sequence when this goes wrong.

How are you simulating the ball drain? You need to hold down the outhole switch until the eject fires. That lets the score motor run and complete the sequence before ejecting the ball to the shooter lane.

Good luck,
Dave

#13 3 months ago
Quoted from dgAmpGuy:

There’s a make-break switch on the AX relay that’s involved in choosing between E and O.

Isn't that the A relay that I pointed out in post 2?

#14 3 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Isn't that the A relay that I pointed out in post 2?

Yes, you’re right, sorry for the confusion with AX.

#15 3 months ago
Quoted from dgAmpGuy:

The E relay and the score motor cause the bonus count down. The O relay makes sure that the bonus is reset and ejects the ball. Seems like the O relay is firing before the bonus is done. There’s a make-break switch on the AX relay that’s involved in choosing between E and O. I’d check that. Is also figure out how to get it the happen with the playfield up because you need to see the I, E, O, and score motor sequence when this goes wrong.
How are you simulating the ball drain? You need to hold down the outhole switch until the eject fires. That lets the score motor run and complete the sequence before ejecting the ball to the shooter lane.
Good luck,
Dave

Thanks for the advice Dave. I have check the switch on the A relay and have cleaned it. Seems to be working fine when I manually engage it. I'm simulating the ball drain by using a chop-stick to hold down the out-hole switch. Just tried it again by manually knocking down the royal flush cards (5000 point bonus on the ladder) and once the ball drained, the bonus cycle did it's way-too-fast sequence and gave me 1000 points. Not quite sure what that indicates or tells me other than it's not counting the correct bonus.

#16 3 months ago

My bonus relay flakes out on me as well. I’ll clean it and adjust and get more plays then it flakes again at some point. Would it be possible, or has anyone heard of, creating a solid state relay that could do the same thing as this small stepper unit does? Probably more work and expense than it would be worth, but it’d be nice to get this unreliable device gone.

#17 3 months ago
Quoted from dyopp21:

My bonus relay flakes out on me as well. I’ll clean it and adjust and get more plays then it flakes again at some point. Would it be possible, or has anyone heard of, creating a solid state relay that could do the same thing as this small stepper unit does? Probably more work and expense than it would be worth, but it’d be nice to get this unreliable device gone.

That would be good but not as much fun!! I tooling around today to try and see exactly what's happening. My "I" AS relay seems to be working fine. It's all clean, the two switches have been cleaned, and I did apply some teflon gel lube to both bakelite boards. The wiper is moving around at what I presume is the correct speed. What's not happening is the 'delay' in the bonus count. For instance, when I manually down all the target and hold down the switch in the outhole, I get the 1000 points but the wiper races across the traces and doesn't count anymore points.

#18 3 months ago

What's the Ball Return Control (A) doing when this happens?

#19 3 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

What's the Ball Return Control (A) doing when this happens?

Hi Howard: I assume you're referring to the A relay? It is engaging (the one M/B) switch in there. I just noticed that the relay right beside it (J) seems to be stuck for a second..........maybe clean that one?

#20 3 months ago
Quoted from TeaHaus:

(J) seems to be stuck for a second..........maybe clean that one?

Yep.

#21 3 months ago

Ok, all cleaned, seems to be working better but..........bonus count still not correct.

#22 3 months ago

Here's my read of how the bonus is awarded at end of each ball. Comments?

  1. During play, any bonus earned trips 4B, 5B, 6B and/or 7B
  2. Any of these 4 Sequence bank relays energizes A relay
  3. Ball drains closing Ball Return switch at schematic 20.5G
  4. If A relay is energized, the Ball Return switch activates E relay
  5. E relay starts the motor running
  6. I relay gets one pulse per 1/3 revolution motor cycle through a switch on motor 4C and E relay
  7. L relay gets various bonus pulses through the logic at schematic 6.5F depending on earned bonus
  8. After 4 motor cycles, I relay finds its way back to position 4, which trips the 8B relay
  9. 8B relay breaks circuit to A relay
  10. A relay changes from activating E relay to activating O relay
  11. O relay activates Ball Return solenoid
  12. Ball Return solenoid kicks ball across Trough switch
  13. Trough switch activates P relay
  14. P relay activates Sequence (and Drop Target) bank reset solenoids etc.
  15. Ball is now ready for player to launch it with the plunger

Legend:
A Ball Return Control relay
E Bonus Score relay
I Bonus Unit mini stepper
L 1000 Point relay
O Ball Return relay
P Add Player Unit relay
4B 2 Jacks relay (on sequence bank)
5B 2 Kings relay (on sequence bank)
6B 3 Queens relay (on sequence bank)
7B Royal Flush relay (on sequence bank)
8B 4th Position Bonus Unit relay (on sequence bank)

#23 3 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Here's my read of how the bonus is awarded at end of each ball. Comments?

During play, any bonus earned trips 4B, 5B, 6B and/or 7B
Any of these 4 Sequence bank relays energizes A relay
Ball drains closing Ball Return switch at schematic 20.5G
If A relay is energized, the Ball Return switch activates E relay
E relay starts the motor running
I relay gets one pulse per 1/3 revolution motor cycle through a switch on motor 4C and E relay
L relay gets various bonus pulses through the logic at schematic 6.5F depending on earned bonus
After 4 motor cycles, I relay finds its way back to position 4, which trips the 8B relay
8B relay breaks circuit to A relay
A relay changes from activating E relay to activating O relay
O relay activates Ball Return solenoid
Ball Return solenoid kicks ball across Trough switch
Trough switch activates P relay
P relay activates Sequence (and Drop Target) bank reset solenoids etc.
Ball is now ready for player to launch it with the plunger

Legend:
A Ball Return Control relay
E Bonus Score relay
I Bonus Unit mini stepper
L 1000 Point relay
O Ball Return relay
P Add Player Unit relay
4B 2 Jacks relay (on sequence bank)
5B 2 Kings relay (on sequence bank)
6B 3 Queens relay (on sequence bank)
7B Royal Flush relay (on sequence bank)
8B 4th Position Bonus Unit relay (on sequence bank)

Hello Howard.......from your detailed sequence of bonus scoring (thanks for putting it in simple terms), my erratic bonus lights/scoring (non-scoring) seems to be related to 4C and E relay and/or L relay. I'm not getting the bonus pulses, thus not scoring the bonus points. Does this sound reasonable?

#24 3 months ago
Quoted from TeaHaus:

Hello Howard.......from your detailed sequence of bonus scoring (thanks for putting it in simple terms), my erratic bonus lights/scoring (non-scoring) seems to be related to 4C and E relay and/or L relay. I'm not getting the bonus pulses, thus not scoring the bonus points. Does this sound reasonable?

Are steps 6 and 8 working correctly?
6. I relay gets one pulse per 1/3 revolution motor cycle through a switch on motor 4C and E relay
...
8. After 4 motor cycles, I relay finds its way back to position 4, ...

#25 3 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Here's my read of how the bonus is awarded at end of each ball. Comments?

This sounds right to me. After watching the video I think this is the part that's not working:

Quoted from HowardR:

I relay gets one pulse per 1/3 revolution motor cycle through a switch on motor 4C and E relay

As HowardR points out the I relay needs to pause for a complete score motor cycle (1/3 turn) to allow all the possible points (up to 5000) to score at each stop. Instead in this case the I relay steps multiple times per score motor cycle and at the cadence where the points should be scoring. That tells me that the I relay isn't firing once per cycle on the score motor 4C switch as it should but is instead firing on a 1A or 4A position switch which closes 5 times per cycle. That would be possible with just one switch being in the wrong position:
Royal Flush I relay (resized).jpg
If the I relay zero position switch were closed at any other position it would allow pulses from the Score Motor 1A switch to advance the I relay prematurely. We know that the O relay should be active and that the O switch above should be closed.

You could test that theory by clipping your meter (with the power off) to the blue-white-red and green-black wires and measuring the resistance between them. When the I relay is in the zero position the resistance should be an ohm or less. In any other position the resistance should be much higher.

/Mark

#26 3 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Are steps 6 and 8 working correctly?
6. I relay gets one pulse per 1/3 revolution motor cycle through a switch on motor 4C and E relay
...
8. After 4 motor cycles, I relay finds its way back to position 4, ...

Not sure.......from 'hearing' it, I don't think the I relay is getting the pulse. I'll check all the contacts in the sequence bank tomorrow during the day, when I have more light. BTW, I'm going to pick-up a new machine tomorrow (well, new for me). A 1965 Bank-A-Ball. From what I've read, no bonus steppers in this one!!!

#27 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

This sounds right to me. After watching the video I think this is the part that's not working:

As HowardR points out the I relay needs to pause for a complete score motor cycle (1/3 turn) to allow all the possible points (up to 5000) to score at each stop. Instead in this case the I relay steps multiple times per score motor cycle and at the cadence where the points should be scoring. That tells me that the I relay isn't firing once per cycle on the score motor 4C switch as it should but is instead firing on a 1A or 4A position switch which closes 5 times per cycle. That would be possible with just one switch being in the wrong position:
[quoted image]
If the I relay zero position switch were closed at any other position it would allow pulses from the Score Motor 1A switch to advance the I relay prematurely. We know that the O relay should be active and that the O switch above should be closed.
You could test that theory by clipping your meter (with the power off) to the blue-white-red and green-black wires and measuring the resistance between them. When the I relay is in the zero position the resistance should be an ohm or less. In any other position the resistance should be much higher.
/Mark

Thanks Mark. Your explanation makes a lot of sense.......will put a meter to that relay tomorrow.

#28 3 months ago

Hmm. HowardR pointed out offline that the O relay shouldn't be active while the bonus is counting so the theory in reply #25 would require that either the O relay switch in the schematic is stuck closed, or the O relay is firing prematurely in addition to the I Zero Position switch being wonky.

#29 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Hmm. HowardR pointed out offline that the O relay shouldn't be active while the bonus is counting so the theory in reply #25 would require that either the O relay switch in the schematic is stuck closed, or the O relay is firing prematurely in addition to the I Zero Position switch being wonky.

Mark, the I relay has two switches in the centre..............is one of these the zero position switch?

#30 3 months ago
Quoted from TeaHaus:

Mark, the I relay has two switches in the centre..............is one of these the zero position switch?

Probably. Check the wire colors.

#31 3 months ago

Ok.....latest round of deductions.........two switches in the centre of the I relay......both have one of their terminals connected to a green/white wire. Each of the bakelite boards has 11 points where the wiper stops, marked C, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. When I manually engage the wiper mechanism, here's what occurs with the switches at each position:

C: both closed
0: both open
1: one closed, one open
2: one closed, one open
3: both closed
4: both closed
5: both open
6: one closed, one open
7: one closed, one open
8: both closed
9: both closed

Not sure if that tells anyone anything.......

#32 3 months ago
Quoted from TeaHaus:

Not sure if that tells anyone anything

As markg said in his most recent above post, the I relay zero position switch would need another malfunction to be the problem.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1976-royal-flush-bonus-issue-as-relay#post-5378766

The way to fix this is to slowly and carefully work through the bonus sequence I listed above to find the first step in my list that doesn't work as it should.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1976-royal-flush-bonus-issue-as-relay#post-5378558

If you can report back the first step number that doesn't work the way I said it should then I can help you.

#33 3 months ago

Ok, my bad. I misinterpreted the schematic and picked the wrong switch. Let me try again:
Royal Flush I relay 2 (resized).jpg
The I relay Zero Position switch is only open when the I relay is in the Zero Position. In other words, it's open whenever the game isn't counting up a bonus. When the bonus count starts, the game adds points for the first score motor cycle (with the arrow in the first position) then the I relay takes a step to position 1 and the Zero Position switch closes and remains closed until the bonus count is over. Once the Zero Position switch is closed the I relay could be getting extra pulses from the score motor 1A switch if the O/Ball Return relay switch were stuck closed, or closed too soon. That could explain why your bonus count starts off correctly and goes wonky after the arrow moves to the 2nd position.

So my apologies to the Zero Position switch. It's the O relay switch in the same circuit that should be inspected carefully.

#34 3 months ago

Hi TeaHaus +
may I read from Your post-1 "The bonus-feature did function - but then all of a sudden the fault showed up - I, TeaHaus show it in the video" ?

I do have problems fully understanding the feature (looking at the schematics having in mind the relays and the switches changing - changing ...) but HowardR 's sequence of operation in his post-22 is plausible - most likely true --- I would focus on the one and only threebladed M&B-Switch on A-Relay --- TeaHaus, toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - look at the switch - A-Relay non pulling is "middle-blade has connection ONLY to outside-blade-having-soldered-on-wire-WH-OR" - then manually press the armature on A-Relay (You simulate A-Relay pulling) is "middle-blade has connection ONLY to the other outside-blade-having-soldered-on-wire-GR-mingled-with-WH --- the working hypothesis is: "A-Relay-pulling - middle-blade has connection to BOTH outside-blades which is faulty". Do not only look at the contact-points on the long blades - also look on the short studs where wires are soldered-on - a short piece of crap wire fallen there, a drop of solder, one of the studs heavy bent --- making faulty contact ? (((Faulty the O-Relay also activates when only the E-Relay shall activate)))

I found some JPGs - maybe of general interest (?). Greetings Rolf

0Royal-Flush-Manual_07 (resized).jpg0Gottlieb-1978-Catalog-P-page-58 (resized).jpg0Gottlieb-1978-Catalog-P-page-59 (resized).jpg
#35 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Ok, my bad. I misinterpreted the schematic and picked the wrong switch. Let me try again:
[quoted image]
The I relay Zero Position switch is only open when the I relay is in the Zero Position. In other words, it's open whenever the game isn't counting up a bonus. When the bonus count starts, the game adds points for the first score motor cycle (with the arrow in the first position) then the I relay takes a step to position 1 and the Zero Position switch closes and remains closed until the bonus count is over. Once the Zero Position switch is closed the I relay could be getting extra pulses from the score motor 1A switch if the O/Ball Return relay switch were stuck closed, or closed too soon. That could explain why your bonus count starts off correctly and goes wonky after the arrow moves to the 2nd position.
So my apologies to the Zero Position switch. It's the O relay switch in the same circuit that should be inspected carefully.

Hi Mark.......no apologies needed!!! You guys and all the help/info you provide is invaluable to those of us new to the hobby and hoping to get our machines humming along! I will tackle that O relay next!!!

#36 3 months ago

And so........picked up a Bank-A-Ball this morning, got it home, decided to try the RF first and voila, bonus is counting properly!! No idea what part of all the tinkering was responsible for the fix. I really worked on that "I" relay so the last thing I did this morning was remove it and document what the switches were doing at each step. Then I put it back under the playfield. Didn't fire it up because I had to leave for the drive to pick-up bank-a-ball. I'm going to mark this thread solved even though not quite sure what fixed the issue. Here's a pic of the new pinball...........fun game, totally different than RF and no bonus stepper!!

MyEMS (1) (resized).jpg
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