1975 Williams Little Chief: Coin-Up Problems

0

#1 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Hello guys,

I had a previous topic on this; but, it seems like its dead, I have drained it and want to renew the discussion on a new thread.

I finally have my Little Chief running correctly again and am now trying to troubleshoot some problems I'm having with getting my coin situation working correctly.

Here is a basic overview of my current problems.

1. When the coin trips are activated, they trigger the 25 cent relay; but, the relay stays locked after that and the credits don't end up getting added to the credit wheel. Turning the machine off and back on again reverts the 25 cent relay to its default position

2. I would like one of the coin slots to trigger the 10 cent relay; but, they both trigger the 25 cent, even when the jumpers are set accordingly. Am I missing something?

3. The credit wheel isn't lined up well in the window, and the numbers don't always line up well with window, either, sometimes they're halfway inbetween and things. Is this an issue with the wheels mechanical function, or has the sticker gotten loose and started sliding out of position?

4. Despite the relays in the body not getting the credit wheel to go up, hitting the extra special bonus when lit in the corner of the playfield adds credits to the wheel 100% reliably. So, I think the issue is somewhere inbetween the wheel and relays.

What do the gurus say in this matter? This is really the last big hurdle in this machine before its ready for display and play!

Cheers
Alex

0

#2 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

OP
Quoted from Galacnor:
1. When the coin trips are activated, they trigger the 25 cent relay; but, the relay stays locked after that and the credits don't end up getting added to the credit wheel.

Does the motor run when this happens?

0

#3 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from HowardR:
Does the motor run when this happens?

Howdy HowardR,

No, the motor doesn't run when this happens.

Cheers
Alex

0

1

#4 3 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,251

OP
Quoted from Galacnor:
No, the motor doesn't run when this happens.

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).png

0

#5 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from HowardR:
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
[quoted image]

Howdy again, HowardR,

Thanks for this schematic, it really helped me out.

Heres how I traced:

15 Amp Fuse>Score Motor>Score Motor Service Jack>25 Cent Relay>25 Cent Coin Switch>Anti Cheat Switch (Coin Door)>Transformer

The circuit checks out, it seems. There was continuity though the whole thing, it seems.

Where to next?

Sorry it took me a few days to finally troubleshoot.

Thanks again
Alex

0

#6 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

OP
Quoted from Galacnor:
2. I would like one of the coin slots to trigger the 10 cent relay; but, they both trigger the 25 cent, even when the jumpers are set accordingly. Am I missing something?

I think I found the "problem" that is preventing one slot from triggering the 10 cent relay.

There seem to have been a few different configurations from the factory? I found these under some black electrical tape. We can see there are some extra, unused wires. I'm guessing switching one of them around with the existing one will get the 10 cent slot to signal the appropriate relay?

Am I right or dead wrong?

Alex

20201105_022125 (resized).jpg

20201105_022137 (resized).jpg

0

#7 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

Probably right. Williams machines from that era that were purchased configured with 2 coin chutes, generally came with unused wires to enable a third coin slot, had the operator chosen such an option.

Consult the schematic and try to find the 10-cent coin switch and see if the wire colors to and from the switch match up with the unused wires that you have.

0

#8 3 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Alex
I am not sure about Your post-5 --- is it description of "have found a fault" ? or (Your 'where to next?') is it a report on a still open problem ? Greetings Rolf

0

#9 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:Probably right. Williams machines from that era that were purchased configured with 2 coin chutes, generally came with unused wires to enable a third coin slot, had the operator chosen such an option.
Consult the schematic and try to find the 10-cent coin switch and see if the wire colors to and from the switch match up with the unused wires that you have.

Hello Runbikeskilee

I did as you suggested and here are some screenshots from the schematic previously posted by another member in this form. I think I found the wire I need, I just cant seem to get the right combination.

Some configurations I've tried do nothing at all, and the 25 cent relay doesnt even close, others start the game/add a player to the game when the coin switch is flipped.

There are a total of 5 different wires I found

Any ideas?

I have an aftermarket coin switch in one of the slots, it's got 2 poles, and 3 contacts, opposed to the 3 poles and 3 contacts on the original. Other people said it was a good replacement but maybe it's not?

Pics attached
Alex

20201106_214726 (resized).jpg

20201106_214753 (resized).jpg

20201106_214812 (resized).jpg

20201106_220234 (resized).jpg

20201106_220246 (resized).jpg

0

#10 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Alex
I am not sure about Your post-5 --- is it description of "have found a fault" ? or (Your 'where to next?') is it a report on a still open problem ? Greetings Rolf

Howdy Rolf,

I think I have found the answer to one of my problems related to coining up! Here they are again.

1. When the coin trips are activated, they trigger the 25 cent relay; but, the relay stays locked after that and the credits don't end up getting added to the credit wheel. Turning the machine off and back on again reverts the 25 cent relay to its default position

2. I would like one of the coin slots to trigger the 10 cent relay; but, they both trigger the 25 cent, even when the jumpers are set accordingly. Am I missing something?

3. The credit wheel isn't lined up well in the window, and the numbers don't always line up well with window, either, sometimes they're halfway inbetween and things. Is this an issue with the wheels mechanical function, or has the sticker gotten loose and started sliding out of position?

4. Despite the relays in the body not getting the credit wheel to go up, hitting the extra special bonus when lit in the corner of the playfield adds credits to the wheel 100% reliably. So, I think the issue is somewhere inbetween the wheel and relays.

I think this wiring situation explains why they both trigger the 25 cent relay. One needs to be wired to trip the 10 cent.

Other than that I'm still totally clueless

Alex

Screenshot_20201106-223240_Chrome (resized).jpg

Screenshot_20201106-223254_Chrome (resized).jpg

0

#11 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

Alex, I'm assuming your machine came configured with two coin slots in the front panel, both for accepting quarters. Is that correct?

In the area where I was living at, up to 1973, or so, most machines were configured for 10 cents for one play, or 3 games for a quarter. Starting in 1974, the local operators were switching to 2 plays for a quarter, and most of the newer machines in the local arcades went to 2 coin slots that accepted quarters only. I know that Williams continued to build machines with the wiring and switches available for a 10-cent coin slot, although few operators were going that way. I own 2 Williams machines from the mid-late 70s and both have unused wires (for a third coin slot) right behind the coin door that were taped off.

From a quick look at the Little Chief schematic, it appears like a 10-cent coin switch (if there was one) would have had BLU-BR and Y-R wires soldered to the switch tabs. The circuit then went through the 10-cent adjustment jack on the way to the coil terminals of the 10-cent relay. I would think that if you touched the bare ends of the Y-R and BLU-BR wires together, then the pulse would travl through the adjustment jack and pulse the 10-cent relay. Is that not happening?

Lee

0

#12 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Alex, I'm assuming your machine came configured with two coin slots in the front panel, both for accepting quarters. Is that correct?
In the area where I was living at, up to 1973, or so, most machines were configured for 10 cents for one play, or 3 games for a quarter. Starting in 1974, the local operators were switching to 2 plays for a quarter, and most of the newer machines in the local arcades went to 2 coin slots that accepted quarters only. I know that Williams continued to build machines with the wiring and switches available for a 10-cent coin slot, although few operators were going that way. I own 2 Williams machines from the mid-late 70s and both have unused wires (for a third coin slot) right behind the coin door that were taped off.
From a quick look at the Little Chief schematic, it appears like a 10-cent coin switch (if there was one) would have had BLU-BR and Y-R wires soldered to the switch tabs. The circuit then went through the 10-cent adjustment jack on the way to the coil terminals of the 10-cent relay. I would think that if you touched the bare ends of the Y-R and BLU-BR wires together, then the pulse would travl through the adjustment jack and pulse the 10-cent relay. Is that not happening?
Lee

Hello again, Lee,

Thank you so much for your valuable insight into my problem and for your backstory.

I did a-lot of thinking before I settled on the 3 plays a quarter / 1 a dime. I thought it was a nice configuration, although, its apparent now that the machine probably has been in quarter only configuration for the entirety of its life!

Long story short, I did find those 2 wires you mentioned. They are pictured above in Post 9, Photograph 2.

Touching these two wires together when the game is at a game over position starts a game automatically, without sending credit to the credit wheel first, if a game is already started it adds an additional player.

Any idea whats gone wrong here?

Cheers
Alex

0

#13 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

Alex,

Referring to the schematic at area E6 to E7 (call it E6.5), it appears there is a circuit path from the 10-cent relay to the credit unit step-up solenoid.

https://www.ipdb.org/files/1458/Williams_1975_Little_Chief_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf

If you then trace back to the area around D2 to E2, the pulse from the 10-cent coin switch then goes through the 10-cent adjustment jack. If the plug is set for "1", then the corresponding circuit path should start a game automatically, but if the plug is set for the "2" or "3", then the pulse should travel to the 10-cent relay, which should then add credits through the credit unit step up solenoid shown at E6.5.

Perhaps double check the adjustment jack on the floor of the main cabinet. If you want the machine to put up credits in the window, the adjustment plug would have to be set on "2" or "3". The circuits were designed to automatically start a game if the plug is set for "1". It's possible you could figure out a way to modify the circuits if you wanted to see the game add a single credit when the 10-cent coin switch was closed, but it wasn't designed that way from the manufacturer.

0

#14 3 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Alex
What do You have ? - two Coin-Slots or three Coin-Slots ? Do You have the Alternator-Unit ? If You have two Coin-Slots - are they "25 Cent and 10 Cent" or "25 Cent and 5 Cent" or "10 Cent and 5 Cent" ?
What do You want ? Just make an nice set up "5 plays for a big Coin - 2 plays for a small Coin (or such)" in Your pin ? Or do You want to bring Your pin (wiring) to "exactly as shown in the ipdb-Schematics" ?

Some true Add-A-Ball-Pins did not have an REPLAY-Counter (what for when the state did not allow Replays) - simply one Coin-Slot for "one Coin thrown in starts a (the) game".
Many pins can be adjusted to "one (small) Coin thrown-in gives one Play - starting a Play". I see in the schematics "Little Chief" the plugging "one (big) coin gives SIX Plays - five step-ups on the Replay-Counter and one as 'starting a Play' ".
My Gottlieb Liberty Belle has the funny adjustment "one (small) coin - one step-up on the Replay-Counter and one as 'starting a Play' ".
I never have encountered "ONE Coin - ONE STEP-UP on the Replay-Counter". Greetings Rolf

0

#15 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Alex,
Referring to the schematic at area E6 to E7 (call it E6.5), it appears there is a circuit path from the 10-cent relay to the credit unit step-up solenoid.
https://www.ipdb.org/files/1458/Williams_1975_Little_Chief_Schematic_Diagram_continuous.pdf
If you then trace back to the area around D2 to E2, the pulse from the 10-cent coin switch then goes through the 10-cent adjustment jack. If the plug is set for "1", then the corresponding circuit path should start a game automatically, but if the plug is set for the "2" or "3", then the pulse should travel to the 10-cent relay, which should then add credits through the credit unit step up solenoid shown at E6.5.
Perhaps double check the adjustment jack on the floor of the main cabinet. If you want the machine to put up credits in the window, the adjustment plug would have to be set on "2" or "3". The circuits were designed to automatically start a game if the plug is set for "1". It's possible you could figure out a way to modify the circuits if you wanted to see the game add a single credit when the 10-cent coin switch was closed, but it wasn't designed that way from the manufacturer.

Howey again Lee,

So, as it turns out, the only problem with the dime setup is that I'm a little on the dull end!

Sorry!

At 1 credit per dime it starts a game, at 2+ it adds to the wheel.

We are all set with dimes now, then!

Quarters are still not making it up to the wheel! Very odd!

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Alex
What do You have ? - two Coin-Slots or three Coin-Slots ? Do You have the Alternator-Unit ? If You have two Coin-Slots - are they "25 Cent and 10 Cent" or "25 Cent and 5 Cent" or "10 Cent and 5 Cent" ?
What do You want ? Just make an nice set up "5 plays for a big Coin - 2 plays for a small Coin (or such)" in Your pin ? Or do You want to bring Your pin (wiring) to "exactly as shown in the ipdb-Schematics" ?
Some true Add-A-Ball-Pins did not have an REPLAY-Counter (what for when the state did not allow Replays) - simply one Coin-Slot for "one Coin thrown in starts a (the) game".
Many pins can be adjusted to "one (small) Coin thrown-in gives one Play - starting a Play". I see in the schematics "Little Chief" the plugging "one (big) coin gives SIX Plays - five step-ups on the Replay-Counter and one as 'starting a Play' ".
My Gottlieb Liberty Belle has the funny adjustment "one (small) coin - one step-up on the Replay-Counter and one as 'starting a Play' ".
I never have encountered "ONE Coin - ONE STEP-UP on the Replay-Counter". Greetings Rolf

Howdy Rolf,

Thanks for taking the time to help me.

I have only got my coin door set up for 2 mechs.

I do not know what an alternator is, I'm very sorry, this is my first restoration and my learning unit.

I would like one trip to accept quarters, and the other to accept dimes.

The dime setup is now resolved but I still cant get the 25 cent relay working right.

It's still tripping the 25 cent relay but not getting to the wheel. The wheel works correctly when you set small coins to multi game though

Thanks guys
Alex

0

1

#16 3 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

7y 43,150 722 10

No worries, Alex. Some of these setups are not extremely intuitive if you haven't worked with them before. You are learning and will be a Williams repair expert before you know it!

1. The first step in resolving the non-functional 25 cent relay issue, would normally be to assure yourself that the credit unit is functioning properly. If it works correctly when you set the 10-cent adjustment to 2 or 3 and trip the 10-cent switch wires together, then it may be ok, but I would still go into the back box and actuate the step-up and step-down solenoid plungers with your finger to make sure the credit wheel is stepping solidly up and down and stopping cleanly on the next number(s). If not, then cleaning and adjustment of the credit unit mechanism may be in order.

2. If you'd like to have the coin mechanism give 3 plays for 1 quarter, then the 25-cent adjustment plug should be set to 3 and the 1-coin, 1-play/2-coins, 3-plays adjustment plug should be set to OFF.

3. Next, examine the 25-cent relay itself. The owners manual indicates there should be five normally open (NO) switches. Actuate the white plastic yoke with your finger and make sure all 5 switches close firmly. Also make sure the tab ends of the switches are not bent over and touching each other and the wires are still soldered on securely. The middle switch with the gray-white and black wires soldered to the tabs should be the switch that actually pulses the credit unit step-up solenoid. Make sure that switch especially has clean contacts that are making firm contact when the relay is actuated.

4. Still not working properly? Next, check the jones plugs in the backbox. The wire that pulses the step-up solenoid should be located on one of the 20-pin plugs at position 6 down from the top. See page 13 of the owners manual for clarification.

Hopefully, one of those steps resolves the problem.

0

#17 3 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Alex
I do have problems with "Adobe Acrobat Reader" - my version is smashed - cannot delete completely - cannot load an new version - I must use other PDF-Readers so I (me only) cannot look up here:
http://www.planetarypinball.com/ to http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK
then in such stuff http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/WMS_Parts_1964/index.html unfortunately I cannot look up - but You can browse around ? ...

But I have some pictures - the first JPG shows the Alternator-Unit in my Space Mission - unused. The second JPG shows an No-Match-Unit - an stepper - endlessly forward, forward, forward. In the third JPG we see my Space-Mission-No-Match-Unit - see "green 3, 4, 5": a Switch (blade-green-4 and blade-green-5) is actuated by a hard to see gear (green-3).
And in my last JPG we see (copy of planetarypinball parts-book) bottom-left: On the axis of the stepper maybe is a gear with only ONE tooth*** or maybe FIVE teeth*** to actuate the mentioned switch - maybe there is no tooth***, Zero teeth*** to actuate the encircled-green switch.

The function of the ALTERNATOR-Unit for starting a game is: Switch is stepped (starting with ON ?) OFF-ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON etc. so we must throw-in two Coins to make the Start-Relay to pull-in (when switch comes to "ON" position). An Alternator is needed when we want "TWO Coins must be thrown-in to start a game" - a seldom used function. I actually never have seen an working Alternator-Unit. Greetings Rolf

0Space-Mission-Alternator-Unit-1 (resized).JPG0Space-Mission-No-Match-Unit (resized).jpg0Space-Mission-Match-Unit-real (resized).jpg0Space-Mission-Stepper-Unit (resized).jpg

Post last edited 3 years ago: “I am not sure - Starting position OFF or ON ?”

0

#18 3 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Alex
I was scratching my head - in the manual of what pin did I see the drawing of an Alternator Unit ? Lucky me I was looking at other topics tonight - hihi - Dipsy Doodle YES we see the Alternator Unit in the manual - see here https://www.ipdb.org/files/683/Williams_1970_Dipsy_Doodle_Instruction_Manual.pdf on page-4 (ori-2). Greetings Rolf

0

#19 3 years ago

OP

AMG

Galacnor

Pinside member

Columbus, OH

9y 25,650 69 6

Hey everyone,

Sorry to keep you all waiting for a response on this topic.

Unfortunately, I've ran out of time for the year with my beloved pinball projects and will have to wait until June to resume the offensive.

There is a-lot of great information here and I am confident that I'll get everything back up to snuff fairly quickly once I get the time to tinker.

I will let you all know how it goes once I make some progress.

Cheers
Alex

By Galacnor

3 years ago

Topic Stats

You

Find in topic

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

Galacnor

HowardR

Galacnor

HowardR

Galacnor

Galacnor

Runbikeskilee

rolf_martin_062

Galacnor

Galacnor

Runbikeskilee

Galacnor

Runbikeskilee

rolf_martin_062

Galacnor

Runbikeskilee

rolf_martin_062

rolf_martin_062

Galacnor

Reply

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!