(Topic ID: 240699)

1974 Big Indian Ball Return Issue

By Rebelkustoms

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Gottlieb Outhole Kicker (resized).png
20190414_170343 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).PNG
#1 5 years ago

Hi all, my restored Big Indian has been having a problem lately with the ball return coil firing but not shoving the ball all the way over the ramp to the shooter. The ball rolls back down to the outhole then then refires over and over again. Sometimes it fires 4 to 5 times before it makes it over. I made sure the ramp was in the right place and the mechanism seems to not be binding or anything. I looked at the ball return relay, I am getting an arc in one of the switches. I cleaned and adjusted all of them but I cannot get the arc to go away for anything. Any suggestions, check the videos out for a visual.

#2 5 years ago

The coil is fired thru a motor switch. It will be on the 4c switches. clean them and make sure you have enough gap. I also clean switches on O as the circuit is thru one of them.

#3 5 years ago

Gottliebs are infamous for the ball hitting the underside of the apron. The ball does not sit on the kicker arm because the outhole gets elongated. There's a fix that involves using an old switch blade to hold the ball in place better.

Could also be the mech itself or the switches mentioned above.

Look in there and see if it is hitting the under side of the apron .

#4 5 years ago

Check this circuit, leading into Ball Return (O).

Capture (resized).PNGCapture (resized).PNG
#5 5 years ago

Also make sure the sprung arm on the kicker is oiled at the pivot and moving freely and has the correct spring, and has no binding crud between it and the other kicker arm, otherwise the kick will be too hard. And see if you have noticeable wear at the tip(s) on the kicker, which can get hammered and flattened out if the kicker has a megaton of miles on it. If you remove the card holder it’s easier to see if the ball is being launched too high or the kick is weak, etc.

#6 5 years ago

Not one of Gottlieb's better designs. Williams and Bally outhole kicker systems are far superior

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Williams and Bally outhole kicker systems are far superior

Ballys, in my experience, tend to have their kicker problems at the SM, which are a bit easier to find and clean.

#8 5 years ago

This was a simple mechanical fix for 2 of my Gottliebs. The ball must rest at just the right position in the hole relative to the kicker prong tips so they can launch it at the correct angle. Same principle as hitting a baseball: hit foul balls all day, or a hit home run every time. Try this: remove the apron and ball; lift the playfield so you can bend the tip of the kickout hole switch blade up at a right angle, about 1/4" from its end. You may have to experiment with the angle and length of the bent tip. Lower the PF, power up and try it. Also observe the ball's movement with the apron removed; sometimes its blocked by the edge of the guide rail and bounces back. If so, bend and/or adjust the rail as needed for the least restricted flight path. Then try it with the apron reinstalled. Persevere. You'll get it.

#9 5 years ago

The GTB design isn’t as ‘smart’ and is much more prone to having issues but once you get them (and what fires them) back up to spec they kick to the shooter reliably. The one in my Fast Draw never fails and gets the ball there quick and smooth every time. But yeah I’ve had many that needed fixin’ up where the ball was hitting the card holder.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Ballys, in my experience, tend to have their kicker problems at the SM, which are a bit easier to find and clean.

I've owned four different Bally games, and none of them ever had an issue, other than just the normal dirt that basically all games have under the apron. Even when dirty, they kicked reliably and strong.

The Gottlieb design just has too many moving parts to it. Gottlieb did a lot of things right, and better, but score reels and outhole kickers were two that were not better.

#11 5 years ago

I pulled the mechanism today to clean it up. It is a bit beat up doesn't look too terrible thought. There is a flat spot or two on it. The more I watched it the more it looks like a random mechanical thing happening. I cant quite see it but it seems like some mechanical thing like was mentioned by a few of you guys like maybe it throws it against the top or side. BUT..... now I am having a separate fluke issue. My score reel is fluttering during scoring and play and it is scoring points everytime I hit a flipper . Never had an issue like this on this machine, maybe I bumped a ground or something idk. Any ideas?

20190414_170343 (resized).jpg20190414_170343 (resized).jpg
#12 5 years ago

Yup the bottom ends of the kicker are pretty bashed, I’ve been able to peen them to get closer to the original shape, ball may not be seated/centered in the kicker as it should be... kicking upward instead of forward, or to one side since the peening there is worse on one side than the other.
Whichever reel is doing false scoring, might just be a scoring playfield switch gapped to close.

#14 5 years ago

Whats the part number for the ball return forks or kicker. Thanks Raff

#15 5 years ago

On the other thread showing the heavy wear where the kicker pivots, maybe a short piece of steel tubing could be brazed or epoxied onto the bottom of the post to both negate the wear notches on the post and compensate for the enlarged hole, and take out the slop... enlarging the hole if needed to match the diameter of the tubing.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Raff:

Whats the part number for the ball return forks or kicker. Thanks Raff

Does this diagram from the 1978 parts catalog assist?

Gottlieb Outhole Kicker (resized).pngGottlieb Outhole Kicker (resized).png
#17 5 years ago
Quoted from AvidListener:

Does this diagram from the 1978 parts catalog assist?

yep thats it. I am looking to buy one if anyone has one for sale.
Raff

4 months later
#18 4 years ago

Going through some old posts so here is the SOLVED PART OF THIS POST. A few weeks ago i got around to finishing this up and I have it 99% solved I am happy to say. There were 2 things going on. 1 the kicker fork was chewed up as you can see in the picture. I used a small ball peen and the anvil on my vice to carefully beat that back to shape. I tried to make sure both sides of the fork matched again and would hold the ball centered when kicking it over. used a file to deburr it and and polished it out a little. I think that was destroying my balls. 2 i fooled with the adjustment of that switch. I rebent it at a 90 and started adjusting from there. Took a little fooling but it is so much better now. It double fires maybe 1 out of 20 or 25 times now and I can live with that. Now on to my drop target issue. Hope this helps someone out.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1974-big-indian-ball-return-issue and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.