(Topic ID: 153024)

1973 Gottlieb Pro-Football: Startup Glitchiness


By SkyKing2301

4 years ago



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#101 4 years ago
Quoted from SkyKing2301:

Well, hold up now, they're not SUPPOSED to work until something gets scored. Per the manual, after O gets locked in:
"Press the right flipper button and the motor starts running. When motor 2C closes the circuit to the ball return coil, it actuates, and proples the ball onto the playfield. When the ball hits a scoring contact, 'O' relay drops out and both flipper buttons can now be activated. If the ball does not hit any of the scoring contacts it will return to the outhole and the player will press the flipper button again without a loss of the previous ball."
So, really, it seems the problem is why can't I launch the ball? And the above description (and what I see on the schematic) implies it's the switch with the green/yellow and slate/red wires on Motor 2C?

Could you post a photo of the startup sequence page form the manual - that would be very helpful!

#102 4 years ago

Gottlieb Pro Football
OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
1. Inserting a coin actuates "S" relay (Start Relay).
2. This relay will lock in thru its own switch and a motor 2B switch.
3. The following sequence thru the closed switches on "S" relay.
a. The motor starts running.
b. The total play meter and AB relay coil are actuated by switches on motor 3C and motor 1A.
c. The reset "Ball Count" unit coil is energized returning the unit to zero.
d. The advance unit ("I" relay) is pulsed by motor 1A to its zero position.
When "AB" relay coil is actuated it is locked in by the armature of "AB" reset coil. A switch on "AB" relay closes and actuates "Z" relay. Thru closed switches on "Z" the point score and high score units reset to zero thru switches on motor 1A and motor 4A. When all units are reset to zero and motor 4D makes[*], "AB" reset relay is actuated. This releases the armature on "AB" relay and opens the switch that actuated "Z" relay. The reset cycle is now complete. [* - Note, seems they omitted a word here ... I assume it should be "makes contact"?]
4. Place the ball in the outhole. When the ball closes the ball return switch "Q" relay is actuated, a switch closes and pulls in "P" relay thru normally closed switches on "O" relay and motor 1C. When "P" relay pulls in the motor starts running. The normally open switches on "P" relay close, completing the circuit to "O" relay and the add "ball count" unit coil thru motor 4C switch. "O" relay stays locked in thru its own switch and normally closed switches on "L", "M", and "N" relays. The game is now set up for play.
5. Press the right flipper button and the motor starts running. When motor 2C closes the circuit to the ball return coil, it actuates, and propels the ball onto the playfield. When the ball hits a scoring contact "O" relay drops out and both flipper buttons can now be activated. If the ball does not hit any of the scoring contacts it will return to the outhole and the player will press the flipper button again without a loss of the previous ball.
----------End of Operating Instructions-----------

#103 4 years ago

Thanks for the startup sequence

I'm wondering if the O is relay not locking in because the operating pulse is not long enough. When the P Relay operates it locks in over it own contact and a 2B switch and the motor starts. When the 4C switch closes (BR+BLK and BL+BLK) O relay operates through the P contact. The 2B switch then opens and P releases. On the motor sequence chart 4C and 2B overlap. If 4C is delayed then the pulse operating O may be too short.

Could you post a closeup photo of the Motor 4C switch stack that also shows the cam and operating leaver?

I want to check the position of the S/L follower. It should be in the S position but if it was in L, the pulse to O relay would be shortened (I think!)

What happens if you jumper the motor 4C switch (BR+BLK and BL+BLK)? O relay should lock in as soon as P operates.

#104 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Could you post a closeup photo of the Motor 4C switch stack that also shows the cam and operating leaver?
I want to check the position of the S/L follower. It should be in the S position but if it was in L, the pulse to O relay would be shortened (I think!)

See pics below, in sequence:

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(*EDIT* - Not sure why, but the pics don't appear to show up now. If you can't see them either, see them at these links
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxyn_TZyh7dnVnpIX2NjSlV4RE0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxyn_TZyh7dnSkMzTHVOeUc3VlU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxyn_TZyh7dnTExFSy1pQ2Y1Wmc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxyn_TZyh7dnTklCYlJVTGNCX0U

Quoted from woz:

What happens if you jumper the motor 4C switch (BR+BLK and BL+BLK)? O relay should lock in as soon as P operates.

Yes, it does, then releases after the motor turns.

#105 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

One circuit we should check again is the O relay circuit. Check the following...
AB relay switch - switch with red/green wire and blue/black wire
Score motor switch 4C - blue/black wire and brown/black wire
P relay switch - brown/black wire and slate wire
I'm thinking there is an issue with either 4C or the P relay, because those switches send power to the O relay. Clean those switches thoroughly - scrub them clean so the contact points are silver again.

All clean & shiny already, but cleaned again. Adjusted as close as I can get them without touching. No change.

#106 4 years ago

Still researching this problem... Looking at the photos of the score motor can you confirm that the switch with the black/yellow wire and the two purple wires, the lugs and/or the solder on those lugs are "not" touching each other?

#107 4 years ago

Looking at the photos of the score motor can you confirm that the switch with the black/yellow wire and the two purple wires, the lugs and/or the solder on those lugs are "not" touching each other?

That's the tricky thing with photos, only showing one angle at a time... You mean these? Nope, not touching.

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#108 4 years ago

Still concentrating on the issue of why the ball count stepper continuously counts through all five balls after the start button is pressed...

For the ball count advance solenoid circuit, power comes from the transformer and branches off to the individual circuits. Power arrives at the AB relay and is sent to score motor switch 4C. The score motor runs and opens/closes switch 4C, which sends "pulses" of power to P relay switch. In turn, the P relay switch sends power to the ball count advance solenoid.

There's also a secondary circuit that sends power to the ball count advance solenoid. This circuit sends power to a P relay switch and then to score motor switch 1A, and then to another P relay switch and then to the ball count advance solenoid.

First Circuit
AB relay switch - this is a main "gateway" switch that sends power to various circuits
Score motor switch 4C - sends "pulses" of power to P relay switch
P relay switch - the last switch that sends power to the ball count advance solenoid

Secondary Circuit
P relay switch - sends power to the ball count stepper contacts
Score motor switch 1A - receives power through the ball count stepper contacts
P relay switch - the last switch that sends power to the ball count advance solenoid

So, for the ball count advance solenoid to work properly, it needs a gate that opens/closes to regulate those "pulses" of power. And that's all the ball count advance solenoid needs - just a quick pulse of power to get the ball stepper to "click" to the next ball position. And it seems switch 4C is sending these power pulses properly.

From this concept, I'm thinking the P relay switch is the switch that regulates power to the ball count advance solenoid. Also, score motor switch 1A can pulse power to the ball count advance solenoid. Check the following:

P relay switch - switch with orange/black wire and orange/blue wire
P relay switch - switch with white/brown wire and white/orange wire
Score motor 1A switch - switch with white/orange wire and orange/black wire

As usually, check for shorts, lugs touching, etc... Check these switches first, and then we'll look at the P relay coil circuit...

Also, when you start a game, can you see if the P relay coil is always energized?

#109 4 years ago

I envy your schematic analysis skills. Someday I'll understand them as well as you two -- and your clear explanations / analysis has helped me follow along on the schematic and learn a lot!

First: clarification on your question -- "when you start a game, can you see if the P relay coil is always energized?" Do you mean 1) when I hit the start button (and it gets through the first part of the startup sequence), 2) when the outhole switch is closed, or 3) when a game is actually in play?

Just thinking out loud (especially since I'm not by the machine at the moment), with regard to your last post -- but isn't the problem NOT necessarily sending power to the ball stepper (because it's definitely getting it, as we've seen), but rather something essentially telling the machine "ok, now it's on ball 1, stop cycling and let's play!" Something on the ball stepper itself perhaps? In other words, does the stepper continue to advance because the machine doesn't "know" that it's already advanced?

#110 4 years ago

When you start a game and it's going through the reset process, can you see if the P relay is always energized? Or during the reset process does the P relay briefly energize and then release? This is with all wires connected to score motor switch 4C.

Might be on the wrong path here, but when you start a game, the ball stepper is working properly. It clicks through all the ball positions. It's just not stopping on ball 1, so the first ball can be played. So, I'm thinking there must be a switch that will cut off power to the ball count advance solenoid when the ball stepper is on ball 1 and when the score motor is running.

Yes, it could be an issue in the ball stepper itself... If you can post a section of the schematic of the ball stepper unit, we can look at that also...

#111 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Thanks for the startup sequence
I'm wondering if the O is relay not locking in because the operating pulse is not long enough. When the P Relay operates it locks in over it own contact and a 2B switch and the motor starts. When the 4C switch closes (BR+BLK and BL+BLK) O relay operates through the P contact. The 2B switch then opens and P releases. On the motor sequence chart 4C and 2B overlap. If 4C is delayed then the pulse operating O may be too short.
Could you post a closeup photo of the Motor 4C switch stack that also shows the cam and operating leaver?
I want to check the position of the S/L follower. It should be in the S position but if it was in L, the pulse to O relay would be shortened (I think!)
What happens if you jumper the motor 4C switch (BR+BLK and BL+BLK)? O relay should lock in as soon as P operates.

From the photo the follower appears to be in the S position (which is correct)

Quoted from SkyKing2301:

Yes, it does, then releases after the motor turns.

The O relay should stay locked until a point is scored by the L,M,N relays it should not release after the motor turns with that 4C switch jumpered.

Here's the circuit as I understand it should operate:

Ball return switch closed operates Q.

1. Q stays operated until the ball is kicked out.

2. Q operates P through the normally closed O and Motor 1C switches

3. O operates via relay P and Motor 4C switch. O locks in via its own contact and L,M,N contacts.

4. At the same time relay O is operated, the ADD BALL COUNT UNIT is advanced via P relay and Motor 4C switch.

5. P releases at the end of the motor cycle when the Motor 2B switch opens.

6. Pressing the right flipper starts the motor and the Ball Shooter is activated via the O relay a Motor 2C switch.

7. Scoring any points (L.M,N relays) releases the O relay. If no points are scored and the ball returns to the outhole then pressing the flipper button will shoot ball again without adding another ball count.

Now, if O doesn't lock in then P will re-operate and the sequence continues from point 3 operating the ball count unit until game over. (Which is what appears to be happening to game now).

Here's my latest theory lol:

In a previous post you proved that O does lock in when manually operated and releases when points are scored.

It was proved earlier when you disconnected the Motor 4C (OR+BLK) wire that relay O did lock in. Disconnecting the wire prevented the ball count unit from operating. The ball count shouldn't have any effect on O until it get's to the 6th position when all power is cut from the circuit.

Since the ball count unit operates AT THE SAME TIME as the O relay (both operated by a Motor 4C switch) there is not enough current for the O relay to operate properly. Lets have some pics of that O relay.

Things to check:
What is the coil # for relay O?
Is the relay return spring too tight?
Is there too much tension in the contacts resisting the coil operating?
Is the pole-face of the coil clean?

#112 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Here's my latest theory lol:
In a previous post you proved that O does lock in when manually operated and releases when points are scored.
It was proved earlier when you disconnected the Motor 4C (OR+BLK) wire that relay O did lock in. Disconnecting the wire prevented the ball count unit from operating. The ball count shouldn't have any effect on O until it get's to the 6th position when all power is cut from the circuit.
Since the ball count unit operates AT THE SAME TIME as the O relay (both operated by a Motor 4C switch) there is not enough current for the O relay to operate properly. Lets have some pics of that O relay.
Things to check:
What is the coil # for relay O?
Is the relay return spring too tight?
Is there too much tension in the contacts resisting the coil operating?
Is the pole-face of the coil clean?

I like your theory. I'll see if I can get to this sometime tonight. FWIW, when the O relay locks in, it buzzes like crazy too -- not sure if that's an indicator of an issue. (In fact, if we ever got to the point where it was all functioning normally, my next question would be "How do I get this O relay to stop this d@mn buzzing?" lol)

#113 4 years ago
Quoted from SkyKing2301:

I like your theory. I'll see if I can get to this sometime tonight. FWIW, when the O relay locks in, it buzzes like crazy too -- not sure if that's an indicator of an issue. (In fact, if we ever got to the point where it was all functioning normally, my next question would be "How do I get this O relay to stop this d@mn buzzing?" lol)

Actually you might be onto something there - the buzz could be caused by any of the issues I mentioned to check in my previous post.

#114 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Actually you might be onto something there - the buzz could be caused by any of the issues I mentioned to check in my previous post.

Don't tease me now.... I bought a handful of relays from PBR a while back just in case any of these needed replacing. I hope one of them might be the same number/type as this one, just in case we decide to go down that road.

Stay tuned...

#115 4 years ago

A loud buzzing coil usually means the coil is working too hard to keep the relay energized... Clay Harrell has a good article about buzzing coils in his pin repair guides:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#buzz

#116 4 years ago
Quoted from SkyKing2301:

Don't tease me now.... I bought a handful of relays from PBR a while back just in case any of these needed replacing. I hope one of them might be the same number/type as this one, just in case we decide to go down that road.
Stay tuned...

No teasing intended As mentioned in the article fred referred to, excessive spring tension or switch blades adjusted to give too much spring resistance can cause the buzzing. Too much tension also means the relay may not pull in properly.

From Clay's guide

Hold relays, because they are energized for long periods of time, can be noisy. This buzzing is caused usually by one thing: the spring resistance of the relay is too high. Either the relay spring is too short/tight, or the relay's switch blades are adjusted to provided too much spring resistance. If a relay has to really work to pull in its activator plate, the AC 60 cycle hum will result while the relay is "holding". The AC 60 cycles sets up a vibration which causes the noise. AC means "alternating current", as the voltage goes from 30 volts, to 0 volts, to 30 volts again and again, 60 times a second. As the relay goes to 0 volts, the armature on the relay can release slightly, and then the voltage goes back to 30 volts pulling it back. This often causes the buzz or hum.

#117 4 years ago

The O relay is an A-9740. As you can see in this photo, the top is fairly cruddy.

I checked my new relays I bought from PBR, and I have a new one. I think I'll just replace it.

Ack...trouble is, apparently someone once tried to remove the screw holding it in ... and broke the head off. Not sure I'm going to get to this tonight after all...

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#118 4 years ago

Did you buy complete relays or coils? If you just bought coils, I would check that old coil first just to see if it will response to another power source. See if it will work with a 9-volt battery... Replacing the coil might help with the buzzing issue, but not sure how it will affect the start problem you're trying to solve...

#119 4 years ago

Did you check the spring? Maybe try swapping it from another relay...

#120 4 years ago

You may want to just check the solder connection highlighted in the pictures the connection between the Motor 4C BL+BLK wire and the wire that goes to the solder tab of the switchblade that pairs BR+BLK wire (that feeds the O relay).

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#121 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Did you buy complete relays or coils? If you just bought coils, I would check that old coil first just to see if it will response to another power source. See if it will work with a 9-volt battery... Replacing the coil might help with the buzzing issue, but not sure how it will affect the start problem you're trying to solve...

Quoted from woz:

Did you check the spring? Maybe try swapping it from another relay...

Considering the challenge I'm going to have removing the coil from this assembly (due to the broken-off screw head), I may as well try these (and the switch position adjustments) first. (Because my new one is just the A-9740 coil itself, not the whole assembly.) Might not be able to it until the weekend though.

Quoted from woz:

You may want to just check the solder connection highlighted in the pictures the connection between the Motor 4C BL+BLK wire and the wire that goes to the solder tab of the switchblade that pairs BR+BLK wire (that feeds the O relay).

Yeah I know that looks a little messy, because I'd disconnected that wire when we were testing power to the ball stepper. That does include a little jumper to the next switch over, which is part of why it looks so ugly. I'll double-check it and verify it's all good there.

Stay tuned.....

#122 4 years ago

- deleted. duplicate post. -

#123 4 years ago

Tonight, the Pinball Gods looked upon me...

... they saw I'd been struggling for some time, and saw I was finally nearing the top of the hill...

...so they pointed, laughed, and smote me.

Here's how it went down.

We left off planning to take a look at the O relay. I removed the spring. There was still a little resistance from the switches (but less overall), so I didn't even bother putting another spring on there. I started up the machine and manually closed the O relay.
--> O relay held closed with significantly less (but still a little) buzzing.

Next, I closed the outhole switch, to see if the game would behave differently. It didn't.
--> Game still stepped through all five balls without stopping.

On a whim, I removed the spring from P too, but that didn't make any difference either.

I decided to take a look at switches on the back of the ball stepper. (Reference my earlier musings about perhaps the ball stepper not "telling" the machine it's moved to the next ball.) I removed the screw from the top of the stepper mounting plate and swung it down. It has three switches back there:
1) Switch with red/green on one lug and red/black on the other; switch is closed until after 5th ball when cam lever opens it. (Note: Red/green appears on AB relay; red/black appears on hold relay R.)
2) Switch with orange/red & orange/white on one lug, and the other lug has a jumper to the red/green wire (on switch 1); switch is open on zero position, closed on balls 1-5 & 6th position.
3) Switch with thin blue on one lug and thin green on the other; switch is open on zero position, closed on balls 1-5 & 6th position.

--> I checked resistance and Switches 1 & 2 were normal.
--> Strangely, Switch 3 still showed 0 resistance when open.

I investigated the Switch 3 condition further by tracing the wires ... it appears the green wire runs up to a terminal shared by the orange/black wire coming off the outhole switch. The green wire also appears to go to one of the Q relay's coil lugs. The blue wires appear to go to the vari-targets' coils.

Seeing the red-green wire coming off switch 1, and figuring it was probably related to the red-green at the AB relay, I decided to see what would happen without this switch closed. I separated the switch leaves with a q-tip shaft, and started the game -- but nothing happened when I closed the outhole switch. Hmm. Ok.

I took the q-tip out, tried again -- but now still nothing happens with the outhole switch closed. WTH?

Mildly panicked, I put everything back the way it was before I even started messing with anything tonight. Still nothing with the outhole switch closed! WTF!!!

After startup, I know the Q relay should pull in when you close the outhole switch. I can manually try to cycle Q, but nothing happens. Also, now if I manually cycle O, nothing happens either. Motor still turns when I cycle P. I hit the O & Q relays with a 9V battery, they still pull in.

Hope you've had a good laugh, Pinball Gods. You won't relish in my misery any more tonight, I'm going to bed. Will try to approach it fresh at the next opportunity, hopefully with some advice from my pals fred & woz -- who have more than earned a few beers after all this is over.

#124 4 years ago

If you're doing maintenance on the ball count unit, I would simply just clean the contacts and make sure the switch are adjusted properly. Then try to manually advance the ball count unit to see if it's working properly...

Trying to compare wire colors on different parts of the machine is tough to do. Sometimes the wires are related and sometimes they're not. And sometimes the same wire color is used on different circuits on the machine. Of course, the factory will use different wire colors that aren't noted on the schematic occasionally...

Yep, it's happened to everyone - you make a minor adjustment to some switch or relay and then the machine acts differently. Pretty common.

Remember, if you're doing resistance tests on switches, make sure one of the wires is disconnected from the switch so you'll get an accurate reading on the switch itself...

I think in this situation you should look at one component/circuit at a time. First, we're looking at the ball count advance solenoid circuit. After that we can look at the O relay circuit, P relay circuit, Q relay circuit, etc...

So, we just need to review where we're at now... When you power on the machine, is the machine in game over mode or tilt mode? When you press the start button, do all the score reels reset and is a credit subtracted from the credit unit? Then does the ball count unit continuously count through the balls in play?... Yes, the Pinball Gods can be nasty...

#125 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Remember, if you're doing resistance tests on switches, make sure one of the wires is disconnected from the switch so you'll get an accurate reading on the switch itself...

I do keep forgetting to do this. You HAVE said sometimes configurations elsewhere in the machine can throw the readings off.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

So, we just need to review where we're at now... When you power on the machine, is the machine in game over mode or tilt mode? When you press the start button, do all the score reels reset and is a credit subtracted from the credit unit? Then does the ball count unit continuously count through the balls in play?... Yes, the Pinball Gods can be nasty...

- Powers on in Tilt mode.
- Push start button (no ball in outhole): score reels reset, credit subtracted, ball stepper resets to zero.
- Close outhole switch ("ball" in outhole): nothing happens.

Oddly enough, after doing this a few times just to verify, now when I hit the start button, the AB reset relay wouldn't pull in, so the motor keeps spinning.

#126 4 years ago

Looks like something happened when you were adjusting the contacts on the ball count unit... You might want to go back and double check those contacts. So, at this point, the ball count stepper has stopped continually counting through balls 1-5, and now it just resets? And the score motor keeps running after it goes through a partial reset...

I'll check the schematic, and post some ideas later in the day... Next question to answer: Why does the score motor keep running?

#127 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Looks like something happened when you were adjusting the contacts on the ball count unit... You might want to go back and double check those contacts. So, at this point, the ball count stepper has stopped continually counting through balls 1-5, and now it just resets? And the score motor keeps running after it goes through a partial reset...
I'll check the schematic, and post some ideas later in the day... Next question to answer: Why does the score motor keep running?

Well, the stepper shouldn't start stepping (it's a separate coil from the resetting one) until the Q relay closes (when the outhole switch gets closed). But since my Q relay isn't closing...

Score motor continues to run because the AB reset relay isn't pulling in, apparently.

#128 4 years ago

Go back and check the 6th ball count switch (RED-GR & RED-BLK wires) - that supplies power to the O,P, Q relays. I suspect it isn't closing properly after you put the Q-tip in there.

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#129 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Go back and check the 6th ball count switch (RED-GR & RED-BLK wires) - that supplies power to the O,P, Q relays. I suspect it isn't closing properly after you put the Q-tip in there.

Looking at the situation with fresh eyes, this makes a lot of sense -- since (re-reading my late-night fiasco story) this was the first time the Q relay didn't respond to outhole switch closure. It also makes a lot of sense to those who have a better grasp on the schematic, apparently. LOL

Thanks, I'll have a look at that too, next chance I get. Mother's Day coming up this weekend, may not have much time. Will see what I can squeeze in.

#130 4 years ago

At this point, the machine is powered on, ball is in the outhole kicker shooter, start button is pressed, all score reels reset, ball count stepper resets, credit is deducted from the credit reel, and the score motor keeps running...

Looking at the schematic, you mentioned the AB relay was not energizing. So, one of the switches in the AB relay coil circuit is at the ball count unit, which is a wiper switch on the ball count stepper. Look at the following wiper switch on the ball count stepper:

Ball count wiper switch - switch with orange/white/red wire and white wire

Manually operate the ball count unit to see what is happening with those wiper switches. Clean the wiper switches as needed...

In turn, there is a switch on the AB relay that sends power to the score motor. Check the following switch:

AB relay switch - switch with red/white wire and slate/red wire

I'd like to get the machine back to when it did a partial reset with the score motor stopping after the partial reset...

#131 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Go back and check the 6th ball count switch (RED-GR & RED-BLK wires) - that supplies power to the O,P, Q relays. I suspect it isn't closing properly after you put the Q-tip in there.

HOLY SHAMOLEY. Apparently this switch may have been our problem all along. I went and readjusted it, making sure it was contacting firmly now. Not only does it now recognize the outhole switch closure IT NOW ADVANCES TO BALL 1 AND STOPS, AND O RELAY STAYS LOCKED ON!!! Perhaps the Pinball Gods were really trying to help me after all?

It does not, however, then allow me to launch the ball. I suspect once we get the spinning motor business back under control, this may work itself out. So, let's start running that down...

#132 4 years ago
Quoted from SkyKing2301:

3) Switch with thin blue on one lug and thin green on the other; switch is open on zero position, closed on balls 1-5 & 6th position.
--> I checked resistance and Switches 1 & 2 were normal.
--> Strangely, Switch 3 still showed 0 resistance when open.

I just found the switch on the schematic...it will measure as a zero ohms because of the normally closed R contact in parallel.

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#133 4 years ago
Quoted from SkyKing2301:

HOLY SHAMOLEY. Apparently this switch may have been our problem all along. I went and readjusted it, making sure it was contacting firmly now. Not only does it now recognize the outhole switch closure IT NOW ADVANCES TO BALL 1 AND STOPS, AND O RELAY STAYS LOCKED ON!!! Perhaps the Pinball Gods were really trying to help me after all?
It does not, however, then allow me to launch the ball. I suspect once we get the spinning motor business back under control, this may work itself out. So, let's start running that down...

Good news! Maybe the switch was opening due to vibration as the Ball Count plunger was operating...which would have stopped O from locking in.

#134 4 years ago

Ok, after further fiddling, AB now appears to work and the motor stops turning. Now, most startups (when closing outhole switch) the ball stepper seems to cycle past ball 1 to ball 2 before stopping. Sounds like more adjustment on the ball stepper switches is needed.

Secondary / next issue: launching function is not working again.

Will have to fiddle more later, other commitments right now! WooooooOOooO getting so close again!

#135 4 years ago

Glad we are getting there!

Now my old favorite question ... is that O relay locking in?

#136 4 years ago

You'll need to check the circuit that includes the right flipper switch to see why the ball won't launch...

First check the ball shooter solenoid circuit. Check the following:

W relay switch - switch with red/white wire and green/yellow wire
Score motor switch 2C - switch with green/yellow wire and slate/red wire
O relay switch - switch with slate/red wire and brown/red wire

Then check the circuit with the right flipper switch. Check the following:

Zero position ball count unit switch - switch with red/green wire and red/white wire
Right flipper switch - switch with red/white wire and green/red wire
Q relay switch - switch with green/red wire and yellow/red wire
O relay switch - switch with yellow/red wire and slate/red wire

Inspect, adjust (*if needed) and clean those switches and see what happens...

#137 4 years ago

I don't recommend adjusting switches yet - you may cause more problems (no offense intended ). Try and isolate the problem first.

With a ball in the shooter lane and game on ball 1:

Is relay O locked in?

When you press the right flipper button does the motor start?

#138 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

I don't recommend adjusting switches yet - you may cause more problems (no offense intended ). Try and isolate the problem first.
With a ball in the shooter lane and game on ball 1:
Is relay O locked in?
When you press the right flipper button does the motor start?

Ok here's where we're at:
- Start button successfully gets through first part of startup sequence (including AB relay; that issue appears to have gone away after recent adjustments).
- Adding ball to outhole results in ball stepper stepping to 1, then to 2, and then stopping. (It OCCASIONALLY will stop on 1, but is mostly advancing to 2. (I suspect switches on stepper need further adjustment.)
- O relay IS locked in. (Still buzzes, FYI, since I put the spring back on and didn't adjust the switches there.)
- Pressing right flipper button: motor starts, but just spins -- kicker does not kick. ***EDIT -- see next post; adjusted the switch on W, now kicking works. ***

#139 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

First check the ball shooter solenoid circuit. Check the following:
W relay switch - switch with red/white wire and green/yellow wire
Score motor switch 2C - switch with green/yellow wire and slate/red wire
O relay switch - switch with slate/red wire and brown/red wire

It was the W relay switch. Made an adjustment here, and now it kicks!

So, now just have to get it to stop advancing past ball 1! Soooooooo close!

#140 4 years ago

WE FREAKING DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I kept looking at the switches on the back of the stepper, and they all looked like they were functioning properly, so I didn't want to mess with them more. I thought about what else I could adjust, and noticed the spring on the that unit looked a little sloppy. I made some adjustments to the spring and now it has stopped on Ball 1 ever since. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!!!!

I think we're there, guys. I still need to address the buzzing on the O relay, so I'm going to try to get that resolved (and give this current fix some time) before I officially declare victory. But ... holy crap.

#141 4 years ago

Congratulations! I need a beer after this one... Now give the machine a good workout by playing a ton of games on it. It will probably need a slight tune up, but you can have fun fine tuning it... Looks like this machine had multiple issues - the 6th position ball count switch, the W relay switch and the tension spring on the ball count unit... Now you can start a Gottlieb Pro Football club! This motivates me to get my Pro Football out of storage... Enjoy!

#142 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Congratulations! I need a beer after this one...

lol me too!

Glad to hear you got it working in the end - well done!

#143 4 years ago

Presenting Pro-Football: EEET'S ALIIIIIVE!!!

Hey fred, check that out -- now the right flippers go during ball launch too. LOL!

Quoted from SkyKing2301:

with some advice from my pals fred & woz -- who have more than earned a few beers after all this is over.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

Congratulations! I need a beer after this one...

Quoted from woz:

lol me too! Glad to hear you got it working in the end - well done!

Couldn't have done it without you guys -- and it's amazing you stuck with me this long (2 MONTHS and 142 posts!). Considering we're so far apart (FL vs TX & BC), I can't buy you that beer in person -- so PM me your email addresses and the name of a restaurant/bar near you where I can buy you a gift certificate online.

As previously mentioned, I'm going to leave this thread open for a few more days just to make sure no other startup issues arise -- but we definitely got the major stuff nailed down, and "startup glitchiness" is what this thread was all about. At that point, I'll go back through the thread and write up a summary of the issues / resolutions, add them to the first post (for the TL;DR people), and then mark this as Solved.

Still a lot of work to be done -- still have to address the buzzing O relay, and in play last night the stepper occasionally skipped a ball (but I know what to adjust now). I should probably rebuild the flippers too, as they're a little on the weak side. But then the rest is the cosmetic stuff, as I haven't touched the playfield or put the new rubbers on yet.

THANK YOU AGAIN GUYS! Don't forget to PM your email & restaurant/bar.

4 weeks later
#144 4 years ago

Just thought I'd post a little followup.

Now that we got it working, I went through and did other troubleshooting it needed.
- I replaced the buzzing O relay with a new one, since I already had the part. Buzzing? Completely gone. Silent as a mouse now.
- I made more adjustments to the ball stepper switches, seems to have nearly eliminated the occasional skip of ball 1 & ball 5.
- Replaced all the rubbers.
- Cleaned & waxed the playfield.
- Cleaned the plastics. Hey, look, there are colorful pictures under all this grime!
- Replaced/adjusted all the bulbs, so all the lights work.
- Cleaned & adjusted the flipper hardware. This took a few rounds to get right, but I think they're good enough to not need a full flipper rebuild.

Cosmetic-wise, I should probably clear-fill the lenses, as they are somewhat sagged, but in playing the game, I've only had them hang in a lens once or twice. So I'll do it, it'll just be low priority for now.

A video showing some of the gameplay, wow! Look at that clean playfield! Sorry for the weird angle; I just set the phone up on the backbox. Note, this is BEFORE I got the flippers working better, so they're still a little weak here.

I'm going go mark this thread as resolved. As I mentioned, you guys rock!

Hey Fred, one more question, see if you remember -- when are the pop bumpers supposed to light? It seems they light up after you score a touchdown, and stay lit until you hit one of them. Then they turn off, and remain off until you score another touchdown. Is this right?

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