(Topic ID: 153024)

1973 Gottlieb Pro-Football: Startup Glitchiness


By SkyKing2301

4 years ago



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#1 4 years ago

*** PROBLEM RESOLUTION COMPLETE, SUMMARY EDIT (because this thread got lonnnnng):
*** Turns out there was a whole assortment of problems, which is why it took so long to get there. Still, I had superb help from fredsmythson and woz, and a short summary of the problems were:
*** AB / AB-reset switches adjustment required
*** Assorted switch adjustments required on P, Q, O relays
*** Ball stepper Ball 1+ switch adjustment required -- properly tell machine it's moved from 0 ball to 1+ ball position
*** Ball stepper spring adjustment required -- help along the stepper
*** Ball stepper Ball 6 switch adjustment required -- when closed, sends power to O, P, Q relays
*** W relay switch adjustment require (red/white wire and green/yellow wire) -- in circuit which sends power to kicker
***END OF SUMMARY , original post below.

Reference this previous thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1973-gottlieb-pro-football-score-reel-broken-eos-leg) for history thus far.

I have a 1973 Gottlieb Pro-Football I snagged as a "storage-find" and have been working to bring it back to life. I tore down and cleaned all the score reels, the credit stepper, and the ball stepper. It's acting glitchy during my attempts to start it, however.

I seem to be having issues with the ABR actuation. Per that previous thread, newmantjn mentioned that ABR actuation is triggered by the following: ALL the runout switches need to be closed, AND the ball count unit needs to be at Zero AND the motor 4D switch needs to close properly.

- I've verified the ball stepper resets to zero.
- I've verified the motor 4D switch makes good contact.
- I've verified all my reels reset to zero and switches make good contact.

So here's what actually happens, which is what's confusing me:

** Scenario A: If any of the reels have any score (other than zero) on them, and I hit the start button, the credits decrease by one, the ball stepper resets to zero, and the applicable reel(s) will reset to zero ... but the motor keeps running, and ABR does not actuate.

** Scenario B: If all of the reels are ALREADY at zero (untouched by human hands since the last reset!), and I hit the start button, the credits decrease by one, the ball stepper resets to zero, and the ABR DOES actuate after the motor 4D switch makes contact (and the motor stops like it should).

I'm not convinced everything is hunky dory even in Scenario B, though ... because the next step described in the manual's operating instructions doesn't seem to work. ("Place the ball in the outhole. When the ball closes the ball return switch, Q relay is actuated ... etc." -- but if I manually close that outhole switch, nothing happens.) One thing at a time though; need to get to this point consistently first.

Thanks in advance for any help.

#2 4 years ago

Crap, I think it might be the ABR coil itself. It stopped doing Scenario B (above) consistently, and so I began to suspect. I checked the resistance across AB (~15) and then across ABR (~9) ... but they're both A-3891 coils, which Pinmedic's coil chart (ref http://www.pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html) says should be ~15.

#3 4 years ago

Looking back at my notes from months ago when I first got this machine, (and had a little time to glance it over but not much else) it looks like I'd checked all the coils -- but without the schematics so I didn't know what should be what. Apparently it was just a cursory check to see if anything jumped out (e.g., zero resistance). Now that I have the schematic, it appears I have about seven dying coils in here:
A - A-9740 - Alternating Relay - s/b 22 Ohms, is 9.
E - A-9735 - 10 yd & 100 score Relay - s/b 15 Ohms, is 9.
J - A-489 - 00-90 unit Relay - s/b 15 Ohms, is 6.
ABR - A-9735 - Reset completed Relay - s/b 15 Ohms, is 9.
Also, A-9740 - Vari-target reset coils - s/b 22 Ohms, is 12. (Two of these, doh.)
Also, A-7677 - Coin lockout coil - s/b 25 Ohms, is 1. (I don't care about this one though, I know this one is unnecessary for home machines)
Also, A-9154 - Scoring unit coil - All are ~6 Ohms, except one ~4. They all work though (as shown during reset cycle), so I'm not sure if I should replace this one.

#4 4 years ago

Alright, new coils ordered. More to follow once I receive and install them.

#5 4 years ago

Just wondering, did you check the resistance of these coils with one lead disconnected from the coil? It's weird that all these coils would be "bad" on an EM machine. Looking at your resistance readings, they should all still work, with the exception of your coin lock out coil. Each coil and solenoid has an ohms "rating," but what is the ohms rating where the coil will not do its specific job anymore? This goes back to the "old timer" philosophy about pin repair - "Either a coil works or it doesn't work."

For scenario A, did you conclude through testing switches, using the schematic, that the reason for the running score motor was a bad coil? If not, you might want to check the score motor circuit first before replacing all of these coils...

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Just wondering, did you check the resistance of these coils with one lead disconnected from the coil? It's weird that all these coils would be "bad" on an EM machine.

(I guess I really ought to wait for replies before I go off buying parts, lol ... darn ants in the pants.) No, my tests were performed with leads connected. Can/does this make a difference, why and how?

Quoted from fredsmythson:

Looking at your resistance reading, they should all still work, with the exception of your coin lock out coil. Each coil and solenoid has an ohms "rating," but what is the ohms rating where the coil will not do its specific job anymore? This goes back to the "old timer" philosophy about pin repair - "Either a coil works or it doesn't work."

I don't know the answer to that question -- but (speculation here) perhaps it's not quite that simple in this case, because the AB and ABR "interact" with little plates that hold/release each other, and they only have a split second to do it, as triggered by the momentary contact at the Motor 4D closure. If one coil is "starting" to die, could its response time be slightly slower? If so, perhaps this is why the cycle would only intermittently complete / stop.

Then again, maybe it's all confirmation bias -- being pretty confident everything else was fine, I was looking for a problem with ABR, and "found" one in its lower resistance.

I would imagine in most cases where each coil stands alone, "it works or it doesn't work" is probably true, because its overall function isn't dependent on the the relative speed of its reaction. (In which case, hopefully I won't have to replace all those other coils, like you suggested.)

Again, speculation / assumption / educated guess. Remember, I'm still somewhat of a beginner at this.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

For scenario A, did you conclude through testing switches, using the schematic, that the reason for the running score motor was a bad coil? If not, you might want to check the score motor circuit first before replacing all of these coils...

It appeared to be the only thing left that seemed to make sense. Here is the snippet from the schematic. For this part of the cycle to be complete, all the reels have to be at zero (confirmed), the ball stepper has to be at zero (confirmed), and the Motor 4D has to close (confirmed, closing the switch momentarily as it the motor turns). When all of these conditions coexist, the AB/ABR action should occur to complete this portion of the startup cycle.

schematic_(resized).png

Now that I've already ordered all the parts, I may at well start with the ABR one and see if that makes any difference. It'll be a few days until they get here, though, so I am -- and always will be -- all ears.

#7 4 years ago

Hi Skyking.
Something you might try, follow on the schematic and find the HOT side of any coil in question.
then, take a jumper from the transformer RETURN, and touch the NON hot side of the coil, it should fire.
does that pin have a player unit?

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

does that pin have a player unit?

No; it's a single player game.

#9 4 years ago

I think it would be easier in this situation to concentrate on one problem first. I would go with scenario A: score motor keeps running. First question to ask is why does the score motor keep running? We know there is a series of switches (a circuit) that are closed that sends power to the the score motor. At present, one of those switches is not opening when it should. So, locate the score motor on the schematic and start working back to the power side to see what switches are in the score motor circuit. A switch or relay is not opening at the proper time, so check all those switches and relays first...

At this point, I can't rule out a bad coil, but tracing the schematic first will give you a good idea of which "direction" you should go to solve the issue...

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

I think it would be easier in this situation to concentrate on one problem first. I would go with scenario A: score motor keeps running. First question to ask is why does the score motor keep running? We know there is a series of switches (a circuit) that are closed that sends power to the the score motor. At present, one of those switches is not opening when it should. So, locate the score motor on the schematic and start working back to the power side to see what switches are in the score motor circuit. A switch or relay is not opening at the proper time, so check all those switches and relays first...
At this point, I can't rule out a bad coil, but tracing the schematic first will give you a good idea of which "direction" you should go to solve the issue...

Ok, I'm re-looking at this again. First things first: I had the two coils mixed up in my mind -- it's the AB coil that has the low(er) resistance, and that one is operating just fine. The ABR coil, which has good resistance, doesn't appear to be actuating -- which must mean that something's not telling it to.

-- I just checked the reel switches again, no resistance across the zero switches when the reels are at zero. All the reels reset to zero during startup.

-- I visually verified the 4D switch is closing when it the motor rotates that peg through. The switch it closes definitely makes hard contact, and you can occasionally see the spark as they do so.

-- So maybe I should be suspecting the ball stepper? The startup sequence definitely triggers it to reset to zero position. But, once it's there, which switch(es) tell the machine it is there? Here are some pics of my ball stepper at zero position, please tell me if this all looks kosher:

ballstepper1_(resized).jpg
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ballstepper3_(resized).jpg
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ballstepper6_(resized).jpg
Here's a look with it pulled down, to see the switches on the back.

The manual says once all the reels and the ball stepper are at zero, the ABR coil should actuate -- which would open the switch to stop the motor.

#11 4 years ago

With the ball count unit in the position shown on the photo you should have continuity across the circled terminals. If not, then suspect dirty/worn rivets on the disc or the jumper wire connecting the wiper fingers.

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#12 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

With the ball count unit in the position shown on the photo you should have continuity across the circled terminals. If not, then suspect dirty/worn rivets on the disc or the jumper wire connecting the wiper fingers.

Capture_(resized).JPGCapture_(resized).JPG

Thanks, just checked it, zero resistance.

Argh, what am I missing?

#13 4 years ago

Try to check the continuity from the ball count unit (orange-white-red wire) to the the AB reset coil (white wire). If the continuity is good, then use a jumper wire from the transformer to see if the coil will work...

#14 4 years ago

Are you measuring ohms or using the DMM's continuity tester?

What was the resistance in ohms measured across the contacts.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Are you measuring ohms or using the DMM's continuity tester?
What was the resistance in ohms measured across the contacts.

I was measuring Ohms, and was getting big fat 0s as I should. Just for good measure (ha, see what I did there?), I took a quick minute this morning and dropped the DMM over to Continuity mode and checked again all six score reels Zero switch, and the ball stepper terminals indicated by woz (above) and got a good beep at each one.

Quoted from fredsmythson:

Try to check the continuity from the ball count unit (orange-white-red wire) to the the AB reset coil (white wire). If the continuity is good, then use a jumper wire from the transformer to see if the coil will work...

Since my pinball area is also my cats' domain, and I don't trust them with an open machine, I'd closed/reassembled the lower cabinet last night and thus I didn't have time to attempt it this morning. Will see if I can find some time over the weekend -- though some upcoming priorities may pull me off this machine for a while. Stay tuned...

Thanks for all the help thus far.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Try to check the continuity from the ball count unit (orange-white-red wire) to the the AB reset coil (white wire). If the continuity is good, then use a jumper wire from the transformer to see if the coil will work...

1) Ok, checked continuity per your instructions -- results: good beep.
2) Tried jumping. I'm not sure which to jump from on the transformer -- probably the black one that then goes to the primary fuse? I jumped from this terminal on the transformer to either terminal on the coil, and nothing happens.

#17 4 years ago

Do a simple coil test with a battery... Power off the machine and grab a 9 volt battery. You can either put the two connectors of the battery directly on the lugs of the coil, or hook up two wires from the battery to the coil lugs. If it doesn't work, push in the relay and connect the battery to the coil to see if the metal plate will hold in. Then we will know if that coil is good or not...

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Do a simple coil test with a battery... Power off the machine and grab a 9 volt battery. You can either put the two connectors of the battery directly on the lugs of the coil, or hook up two wires from the battery to the coil lugs. If it doesn't work, push in the relay and connect the battery to the coil to see if the metal plate will hold in. Then we will know if that coil is good or not...

Fantastic recommendation -- another great testing tip to add to my bag o' tricks. I've completed this test and the results are interesting -- check out this video:

I cleaned the plate on the AB coil -- there was a little gunk on it -- just to be sure that wasn't restraining the ABR plate. After cleaning it, the results are the same. Is this ABR coil just dying? It just seems like it's not pulling hard enough.

#20 4 years ago

Thanks for the video... From this test the coils are good... The 9-volt battery might not have enough power to pull that plate in when it's sliding on the opposite plate. I think those coils use 25 volts from the transformer. Slight chance there might be a tension issue with the relay spring, because I saw the plate springs weren't exactly the same. You can switch the springs and do the same test again... Also, make sure the contacts on the relay are cleaned and adjusted. The contact near the blue wire looks very close together when in the open position.

We're getting a bit off track on this problem. We're still trying to answer the question of why the score motor keeps running. Did you determine if the AB relay is activated that it will stop the score motor from running? You'll need to find the score motor symbol on the schematic and start working your way back through all the switches to check them. I'd say post an image of the score motor circuit, but I don't know how many excerpts the GSP will allow (Gottlieb Schematic Police). Or you can just tell us what switches are in the score motor circuit. I'll try to find a similar schematic to see what type of switches are in the score motor circuit...

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

We're getting a bit off track on this problem. We're still trying to answer the question of why the score motor keeps running. Did you determine if the AB relay is activated that it will stop the score motor from running? You'll need to find the score motor symbol on the schematic and start working your way back through all the switches to check them. I'd say post an image of the score motor circuit, but I don't know how many excerpts the GSP will allow (Gottlieb Schematic Police). Or you can just tell us what switches are in the score motor circuit. I'll try to find a similar schematic to see what type of switches are in the score motor circuit...

Yes, the ABR actuation does stop the motor. See photo below -- I manually close the switch circled in green, the motor runs. Also, the switch circled in green actuates the Z coil in the backbox, which allows the score reels to be reset.

abr-notes_(resized).jpg

I haven't yet figured out what the 'top' one does when it closes, nor the 'bottom' one when it opens, because nothing seems to happen when they're open/closed manually. Probably dependent on some other open/closed condition elsewhere ...

#22 4 years ago

Alright, so I don't know what changed. I've been going around checking other stuff related to the startup sequence (e.g., Start relay), checking continuity where it should & shouldn't be on the open/closed switches, and now the ABR seems to be working reliably -- every time I run the cycle from the Start button or by manually activating the Start relay, it completes the cycle and the ABR relay actuates when it should. Maybe all the fiddling with the AB/ABR, or the start relay, or who knows what .... I'm hesitant to called the ABR issue solved, but it seems to be functioning fine right now.

Even more evidence that I'm on the right track: It allows the next step in the process to try to work. Naturally, I've got a problem here too.

Per the manual, once the reset cycle is complete -- which it is -- the next step in the process is:

Manual: "Place the ball in the outhole. When the ball closes the ball return switch, Q relay is actuated, a switch closes and pulls in P relay thru normally closed on O relay and motor 1C."
What I have: This does appear to happen -- I manually close the ball return switch, Q actuates, P actuates.

Manual: "When P relay pulls in the motor starts running."
What I have: While P is pulled in, motor runs.

Manual: "The normally open switches on P relay close, completing the circuit to O relay and the add ballcount unit coil thru motor 4C switch."
What I have: This doesn't seem to be happening well. O relay stutters and releases, and nothing happens at the ball relay.

Manual: "O relay stays locked in thru its own switch and normally closed switches on L, M, and N relays".
What I have: Again, this doesn't happen, because O relay does not stay locked in. If I manually push the O relay open further, it locks open but makes a horrible buzzing sound. The motor stops, and relay P releases.

#23 4 years ago

It's good to hear the AB relay is working now, but unfortunately we don't know what you did to get it to work. Maybe cleaning those coil plates did something or cleaning the contact points helped...

The written start sequence can help us with troubleshooting, but what is happening with the game now??? The machine is turned on, there are credits on the credit unit, the start button is pressed, the score reels reset, and then what happens? When you're pressing the start button, is the game over light on in the backglass or is the tilt light on?

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

The written start sequence can help us with troubleshooting, but what is happening with the game now??? The machine is turned on, there are credits on the credit unit, the start button is pressed, the score reels reset, and then what happens? When you're pressing the start button, is the game over light on in the backglass or is the tilt light on?

Lots of questions. Ok -- first, I should note that a switch in the credit stepper has been bent to allow free play, as has been shown in other pinball guides. So, even with no credits on the the credit unit, it still allows the start button to start a game.

If I shut the game off and turn it back on by the switch under the cabinet, it always turns back on with the Tilt light on. I have not seen the Game Over light come on, well, ever, since I've never gotten that far.

When I press the start button:
- The R coil (hold relay) actuates and stays that way.
- The S coil (start relay) closes for a moment to initiate the startup sequence, then releases.
- The AB relay pulls in, the motor starts to turn.
- If there are credits on the credit unit, they decrease by 1. (If there are none, it starts anyway due to the 'free play' adjustment made to the switch in the credit stepper.)
- If the ball stepper unit is on anything but zero, it drops to zero position.
- If the score reels have anything but zero, they reset to zero.
- If the "I" relay (yard stepper) is not at zero, it resets to zero.
- Once all of these are complete, the ABR relay pulls in and the motor stops.
According to the manual, this means the first part of the startup sequence is complete.
(Which would then bring us back to my previous post.)

#25 4 years ago

Can you describe what is happening with the machine when it's all closed up and ready to play? Are we at this point:

Power up machine
Tilt light is on
Press start button
Playfield lights up and score reels reset to zero
Then....???

Is the ball in the outhole? Does the ball kick to the shooter? Are the scoring features on the playfield working and scoring?

#26 4 years ago

Ok, another video to help show where I'm at.

Things to note before you watch it:
1) I repeatedly referred to the P coil/relay as R. I realized it late in the video. Q, P, and O are in a line. It's not Q, R, and O as I mentioned.
2) I pointed out the ball stepper, because I advanced it just to show it worked. I didn't go around (in the video) to prove that it worked and returned to zero position -- but it did.
3) As you'll see, after running the startup cycle with the playfield down, it gets to a point where it *appears* it's ready to play. It's not, though -- it didn't attempted the next part of the cycle, which would have pulled in Q, P, then O, and should also bump the ball stepper I think.

Here's the video.

I've been playing around with it some more with the ball in the outhole, and it only SOMETIMES gets as far as the "buzzing O" as I'll call it. All kinds of strangeness can happen after that -- sometimes I manually throw the ball stepper actuator, the score motor turns briefly, I get buzzing O again, and THEN IT ACTUALLY LETS ME LAUNCH A BALL AND PLAY. After the ball drains, the ball stepper still doesn't advance, but it would let me launch again. Each time the ball drained, the ball stepper still wouldn't advance, so something's definitely not happening up there the way it should, or something's not allowing it to. Also, what do you think might be causing the buzzing?

#27 4 years ago

There should be a switch in the middle of the trough area. When the ball kicks from the outhole it will travel on the trough, and it will go over the ball count trough switch, and then it ends up in the shooter lane. See what happens when you manually close the ball count trough switch. Does it advance the ball count unit? Make sure the ball count trough switch in clean and adjusted properly and the outhole switch is clean and adjusted properly... I think you upload the same AB relay video. Can you post a video of the game closed up with the ball in the outhole, and the start button being pressed? Thanks...

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

I think you upload the same AB relay video. Can you post a video of the game closed up with the ball in the outhole, and the start button being pressed? Thanks...

Crap, you're right -- here's the proper link:

(I'll go back and edit the previous post to put the right vid there for others reading along.)

Quoted from fredsmythson:

There should be a switch in the middle of the trough area. When the ball kicks from the outhole it will travel on the trough, and it will go over the ball count trough switch, and then it ends up in the shooter lane. See what happens when you manually close the ball count trough switch. Does it advance the ball count unit? Make sure the ball count trough switch in clean and adjusted properly and the outhole switch is clean and adjusted properly... .

No, there is only one switch here -- it tells the machine there's a ball in the outhole. You can see it sticking into the lane next to the shooter. I did clean the contacts and verify it's adjust properly. See photo:

outhole_(resized).jpg

#29 4 years ago

FYI, per this other thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1973-gottlieb-pro-football-ball-in-play-skips), it sounds like it's the P relay that should trigger the ball stepper. I'll be taking a closer look at that next time I have a moment.

#30 4 years ago

Ooops, forgot that Pro Football has a ball kicker shooter and not a rod shooter... Doh!

Thanks again for the video... The machine is acting like there is no ball in the ball kicker shooter... Also, whether you start the game with the playfield up, or with the playfield down with ball in the ball kicker shooter, the score motor is still turning the same amount of revolutions.

First, make sure the ball kicker shooter switch is clean and adjusted properly. Next, clean and adjust the contacts on the Q, P and O relays.

One way to troubleshoot this is to trace the circuit that contains the ball kicker shooter switch. Check the continuity of the switch and check to see if there is any voltage going to the switch with a multi-meter.

Another way to look at the issue is to ask why the ball kicker shooter isn't firing when you hit the right flipper button. Look at the schematic and find the ball kicker shooter solenoid (coil), and trace its circuit back to the the transformer. What switches are in that circuit?

#31 4 years ago

Ball shooter doesn't come into play until the next step of the process, according to the manual. So, focusing on Q, P, and O, here's what I came up with:

I checked continuity on the relay switches for Q, P, and O, and came up with three things out of the ordinary -- one switch on P, which is normally open, still has continuity (even when open), and I don't really understand why. On Q, one that is normally open still has continuity, and one that is normally closed, once opened, still has continuity. See photos below.

P relay

Q relay note 1

Q relay note 2

Please note: Unfortunately I'm going to be slammed the next two weeks and really won't have time to touch this machine. I look forward to any assistance / suggestions you all can provide, and when the insanity subsides, I'll try out your recommendations and see where we get.

#32 4 years ago

On rare occasions, the plastic screw sleeves on the switch stacks can break and the screws can act as a bridge and create continuity on an open switch. Most likely you're getting continuity on an open switch from the wires that go to different parts of the machine. To isolate the switch you can disconnect one of the wires from the switch and then do a continuity test on the switch. Also, I would make sure the switch stack screws are tight...

We'll do some additional research on the start up issue, and then we'll continue when you get back...

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

On rare occasions, the plastic screw sleeves on the switch stacks can break and the screws can act as a bridge and create continuity on an open switch. Most likely you're getting continuity on an open switch from the wires that go to different parts of the machine. To isolate the switch you can disconnect one of the wires from the switch and then do a continuity test on the switch.

The latter is what I suspected, but your idea to disconnect them is a good way to be sure. Thanks again. We'll get there....

#34 4 years ago

Those wires in the pictures look to close together(are you sure none are touching) and Id use some 1000 grit sand paper on the contacts. You didnt have a close-up of the O relay. Your videos are good but why doesn`t the video fill the screen?

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from TK2012:

Those wires in the pictures look to close together(are you sure none are touching)

I've checked and re-checked to make sure they're not touching. The photo's a little deceiving for a few of them, just because of the angle of the shot.

Quoted from TK2012:

and Id use some 1000 grit sand paper on the contacts.

I've hit most of them with the flexstone but going back over them again can't hurt.

Quoted from TK2012:

You didnt have a close-up of the O relay.

Yeah I didn't take a shot of the O relay because all of its switches had proper continuity when closed. I can post one at a later time if it'll help.

Quoted from TK2012:

Your videos are good but why doesn`t the video fill the screen?

Thanks, figured it might be more helpful than just pics. I presume you're referring to the longer, startup demo video -- and I also presume you mean it doesn't fill the screen width ... that's because I shot it with my phone oriented vertically, to better capture everything in the picture at once without having to turn your head sideways.

#36 4 years ago

Be careful using the continuity checker on your DMM as you may get false readings. The DMM continuity checker will beep when the measured resistance is below a defined threshold (say < 40 ohms). On EM's it is possible that you will measure this resistance back through the transformer giving you a false continuity reading.

In the circuit below (taken from Pro Football) the DMM continuity checker would beep if you were to probe across the OPEN "S" relay contacts because the measure resistance would be < 40 ohms (through the highlighted path giving you a false reading) even though the contacts are open. If you were to measure resistance you would measure the combined resistance of the RESET BALL COUNT UNIT coil and the 25V transformer secondary (low ohms).

Capture_(resized).JPG

#37 4 years ago

From your video it looks as if Q and O are energized. Pressing the right flipper button should cause the motor to run through the highlighted path in picture below but that doesn't appear to happen.

Things to check:

Is the ball count unit being advanced by the P relay?

If you manually step the ball count unit off the zero position does the flipper button then activate the ball kicker and eject ball (put ball in outhole first!)?

Capture_(resized).JPG

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Is the ball count unit being advanced by the P relay?

No it is not. I have not witnessed the ball count unit advance up on its own, ever. The coil measures good resistance, though. (Note, wires attached to terminals.)

Quoted from woz:

If you manually step the ball count unit off the zero position does the flipper button then activate the ball kicker and eject ball (put ball in outhole first!)?

In tinkering with it over the weekend, I did get this to work a few times. I got to the point in my video where the O coil was locked in (and buzzing horribly), and I manually advanced the ball stepper ... something cycled, and I got the buzzing O again, but then pushing the flipper actually launched the ball and the game would play. When the ball drained, the stepper would still not advance (it'd stay on the current ball number) but would allow me to launch and play again.

Note, it didn't allow this consistently. Sometimes I'd get to the buzzing O, manually cycle the stepper, then nothing would happen.

Now it seems I can't even get to the buzzing O consistently. I can hit start and get all the resets completed every time. But now only SOMETIMES will it run the Q/P/O sequence when I close the ball-in-the-outhole switch. Other times, nothing happens.

Such a tease...

#39 4 years ago

If the ball count is not stepping then the Zero Position Ball Count contacts will stay open and there will be no power to the flipper contacts. The Ball count should advance when P is operated through a P relay contact and Motor 4C switch.

What happens if you manually operate the P relay?

Capture_(resized).JPG

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

The Ball count should advance when P is operated through a P relay contact and Motor 4C switch.
What happens if you manually operate the P relay?

When the game is sitting at the end of the first part of startup (after ABR actuates), manually activating the P relay causes the score motor to turn 1/3 turn, and nothing else appears to happen. Ball stepper does not advance.

(FYI, also, when the game is sitting there with 'Tilt' activated, the same thing happens when I manually activate the P relay.)

Interestingly, when I get the startup as far as the "Buzzing O" (with outhole switch closes), if I then manually activate the P relay, the motor turns 1/3 turn, the outhole kicker kicks, and still nothing happens with the stepper.

#41 4 years ago

Check the switches in the highlighted path in previous circuit - for some reason the Add "Ball Count" Unit coil is not being activated. For a quick check coil and mechanical operation run a jumper from the RED-GR wire on the 6th POS "BALL COUNT" UNIT switch to the OR-BL wire on the ADD "BALL COUNT" UNIT coil. This will bypass all the intermediate switches and wiring allowing you to prove the coil is ok and functioning properly.

#42 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

For a quick check coil and mechanical operation run a jumper from the RED-GR wire on the 6th POS "BALL COUNT" UNIT switch to the OR-BL wire on the ADD "BALL COUNT" UNIT coil. This will bypass all the intermediate switches and wiring allowing you to prove the coil is ok and functioning properly.

Since this was a quick check, I did this, as shown in the photo ... though I'd argue the 6th position wire is red/black, not red/green (the 5th looks red/green).

Anyway, after hooking up this jumper, I hit the start button, and the coil retracted the rod. Of course, it stayed there till I cut the power, at which point it completed the cycle and advanced one step. So, stepper coil appears to be good.

20160301_200831_(resized).jpg

#43 4 years ago

Those blade contacts on the ball count unit look extremely dirty... Try to thoroughly clean and adjust all the switch stacks on the ball count unit and make sure they have continuity...

#44 4 years ago

The RD-GR wire is on the other contact blade of that switch and is common to the 6th position and zero position switch See arrow below.

Anyway it's good that you have proved the coil functions OK. So next check the AB, Motor 4C and P relay contacts in the highlighted path (see previous post)

Capture_(resized).JPG

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Those blade contacts on the ball count unit look extremely dirty... Try to thoroughly clean and adjust all the switch stacks on the ball count unit and make sure they have continuity...

Quoted from woz:

So next check the AB, Motor 4C and P relay contacts in the highlighted path (see previous post)

MAJOR PROGRESS thanks to you guys!!! I went back and thoroughly cleaned the applicable switches. I also made sure I had continuity from the P switch to the motor 4C switch, and from the P switch to the ball stepper. While I had the P relay removed off the bracket (for better cleaning access), I examined the applicable switch closely and FIRMLY manually cycled it -- and that kicked the ball stepper up one!!! So, I made an adjustment to the switch to ensure it's making better contact, and now it cycles the ball stepper!!!

Now, though, the motor's not cutting off during the Q/P/O cycle. I'll tinker some more, but we're almost there!!! (Also, before I got this far, my switch cleanup now reliably allowed me get to the ball launch & play phase after I manually cycled the ball stepper.)

#46 4 years ago

Ref previous post; here's where I'm at:

#47 4 years ago

You'll need to check what switch is out of adjustment and is sending power to the score motor.

Check the following relay switches with the slate/red wire:

Relays - W, C, D, G, P, S, U, V, AB

Score Motor 1C

Not likely the problem, but you can double check these switches with the yellow/red wire:

O relay, Q relay

And check the right flipper switch contacts..

#48 4 years ago

From the video it looks like O relay is not locking in. Check the contacts in the highlighted path below.

Also check the MOTOR 4C switch as well - if that pulse is too short or contacts are dirty then O Relay won't operate properly in the first place.

Capture_(resized).JPG

2 weeks later
#49 4 years ago
Quoted from woz:

From the video it looks like O relay is not locking in. Check the contacts in the highlighted path below.
Also check the MOTOR 4C switch as well - if that pulse is too short or contacts are dirty then O Relay won't operate properly in the first place.

Ok FINALLY getting back to this machine.

I did some troubleshooting with the two lines there that trigger the O relay.

Test 1) I hit Start to get the AB relay in the proper configuration. If I then manually close the switch on Motor 4C with the brown/black wire, and also manually close the switch on P with the brown/black wire, it triggers O, which stays locked on when I release the switches (since O has a switch which, when closed, leaves O locked on).

Test 2) I hit Start to get the AB relay in the proper configuration. If I manually close the switch on O with the white wire, it locks O on.

Both of the above tests imply that the contacts on the L, M, or N switches are good -- but I'll verify that too with Test 3.

Test 3) The highlighted line in your last past -- I interpret this (based on what I'm learning at http://tuukan.fliput.net/emkytkis_en.html) as "O stays on until a normally closed switch on L, M, or N is opened". So, I activate O (by either of the methods described in Test 1 & 2), I go around to the backbox, and manually cycle L, and O releases. I repeat with the process twice more but cycle M and N these times, and O releases each time also. This corroborates what the Operating Instructions describe in Steps 4 & 5: "O relay stays locked in thru its own switch and normally closed switches on L M, and N relays. ... When the ball hits a scoring contact, O relay drops out." In other words, when you hit something (which is worth points), the applicable scoring relay L, M, or N would cycle, and would thereby release O.

So ... this appears to mean indicate that the functions should work, but something's not triggering / releasing them properly. I went back and re-cleaned the contacts on the motor switches, just in case, but didn't have much luck there -- the motor still runs and runs (until the ball stepper has stepped through each ball and ends the game). You mentioned the pulse being too short -- how do I adjust this, just by moving the switch contacts closer together, so they're in contact longer?

#50 4 years ago

Wanted to confirm what is happening with the machine now...

Game is on and it is in game over mode, or tilt mode. Press the credit/start button and the score reels reset to zero, but the score motor continues to run. While the score motor is running, the ball count unit clicks through 1 to 5 balls and then the game ends with the game over light on in the backglass.

Does anything happen differently when the game is started without the game ball in the kicker shooter?

When the score motor is running, does the game over light remain lit in the backglass?

While the score motor is running, are you able to shoot the ball with the kicker shooter using the right flipper button?

Confirming that you checked the following relay/score motor switches with the slate/red wire:
Relays - W, C, D, G, P, S, U, V, AB
Score Motor 1C

If you made sure all the switches in the score motor circuit look good, then we'll need to look at the coils that control those individual switches...

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