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(Topic ID: 207463)

1972 Outer Space start-up issue Solved!

By alveolus

6 years ago


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  • 17 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by HowardR
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Outer Space (resized).jpeg
IMG_0835 (resized).JPG
R relay (resized).jpg
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#1 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

Team EM help requested!

I am working through an issue with my Gottlieb Outer Space. The game was working well until recently when it wouldn't start a game. It would reset the score reels and the reset bank, but wouldn't light Ball one or kick the ball from the outhole.

I noticed that the " game over relay" and the "first ball in play relay" on the reset bank both remained energized, i.e. wouldn't reset, which doesn't make sense to me from the schematics as it seems that once they are tripped, their hold-on switch should open.

If I forced the relays to stay reset by manually holding the reset bank in reset position, the ball count would go to one and the ball would be kicked into play.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Note on the schematics QB is the "game over relay" and ZB is the "first ball in play relay".

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

Post last edited 6 years ago.

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#2 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

More schematics

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

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#3 6 years ago
 
???

currieddog

Pinside member

US Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

What are the H and SB relays? Can you add that part of the schematic?

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#4 6 years ago
 
M

MarkG

Fun With Pinball

9y 71,300 4,363

OP
Quoted from alveolus:

I noticed that the " game over relay" and the "first ball in play relay" on the reset bank both remained energized

The Game Over/QB relay wouldn't reset if the normally closed side of the make/break switch on the R relay stays closed.
R relay (resized).jpgR relay (resized).jpg
/Mark

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#5 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

Quoted from currieddog:

What are the H and SB relays? Can you add that part of the schematic?

Ah, yes. That would useful.

IMG_0835 (resized).JPGIMG_0835 (resized).JPG

2 weeks later
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#6 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

I'm still stuck on this issue. I have carefully cleaned and adjusted the switches on the reset bank but the behavior didn't change.

Thanks for your help.

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#7 6 years ago
 
???

currieddog

Pinside member

US Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Did you clean and check SB relay?

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#8 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

Quoted from currieddog:

Did you clean and check SB relay?

I did, along with all of the rest of the switches in the reset bank with the exception of the Armature Activated Start Relay Switch. this one is hard to visualize. Could it be related to my problem?

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#9 6 years ago
 
RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

CH Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi alveolus
I wonder what You did with MarkG 's post-4 and the JPG in this post (?). He has "encircled red" an "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the QB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". MarkG did not "encircle red" another "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the ZB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". (((This Switch on R-Relay is drawn just below the words "BLK-YEL")))

Wear rubber gloves and/or exercise care not to touch metal parts like solder-lugs - then try: Toggle-Off the pin - manually reset the Control-Bank - the QB-Relay and ZB-Relay must reset and stay resetted (as You have toggled-off the main power switch in advance) -- then (manually) press the armature of H-Relay - does it stay pulling ? - then (manually) press the armature of R-Relay - does it stay pulling ? IF (if, if) "NOT Both are pulling": Ask a friend to manually press the armature of H-Relay and manually press the armature of R-Relay (ask Your friend to press both armatures at the same time - press both for a while) ---IF (if, if) both ar pulling: You do not need the help of a friend.
So the pin is toggled-on, the QB-Relay has plunged, ZB-Relay has plunged - in some way the R-Relay is pulling and in some way the H-Relay is pulling --- and You now manually reset the Control-Bank and let go on the reset-arm --- what are QB- and ZB-Relay do ? They stay resetted ? Or do they (faulty) plunge again ? Greetings Rolf

EDIT: Due to a fault I made: Please do not read this post-9 --- please read post-11.

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#10 6 years ago
 
RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

CH Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi alveolus
wait a minute - I must write an correction, greetings Rolf

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#11 6 years ago
 
RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

CH Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi alveolus
see the text "NOW TOGGLE ON THE PIN - THE QB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE, THE ZB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE --- THEN ..." in the following writing "new post replacing my post-9"

I wonder what You did with MarkG 's post-4 and the JPG in this post (?). He has "encircled red" an "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the QB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". MarkG did not "encircle red" another "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the ZB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". (((This Switch on R-Relay is drawn just below the words "BLK-YEL")))

Wear rubber gloves and/or exercise care not to touch metal parts like solder-lugs - then try: Toggle-Off the pin - manually reset the Control-Bank - the QB-Relay and ZB-Relay must reset and stay resetted (as You have toggled-off the main power switch in advance) - NOW TOGGLE ON THE PIN - THE QB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE, THE ZB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE --- THEN (manually) press the armature of H-Relay - does it stay pulling ? - then (manually) press the armature of R-Relay - does it stay pulling ? IF (if, if) "NOT Both are pulling": Ask a friend to manually press the armature of H-Relay and manually press the armature of R-Relay (ask Your friend to press both armatures at the same time - press both for a while) ---IF (if, if) both ar pulling: You do not need the help of a friend.
So the pin is toggled-on, the QB-Relay has plunged, ZB-Relay has plunged - in some way the R-Relay is pulling and in some way the H-Relay is pulling --- and You now manually reset the Control-Bank and let go on the reset-arm --- what are QB- and ZB-Relay do ? They stay resetted ? Or do they (faulty) plunge again ? Greetings Rolf

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#12 6 years ago
 
M

MarkG

Fun With Pinball

9y 71,300 4,363

Does the R/Hold relay fire when you start a game? It should fire when the S/Start relay fires and closes the S switch, and then hold itself through the R switch circled here:

Outer Space (resized).jpegOuter Space (resized).jpeg

If it doesn't stay on, check all the circled switches.

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#13 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi alveolus
see the text "NOW TOGGLE ON THE PIN - THE QB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE, THE ZB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE --- THEN ..." in the following writing "new post replacing my post-9"
I wonder what You did with MarkG 's post-4 and the JPG in this post (?). He has "encircled red" an "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the QB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". MarkG did not "encircle red" another "Switch on R-Relay in the wiring towards the ZB-Relay - Switch must be open when the R-Relay is pulling so we need the R-Relay pulling". (((This Switch on R-Relay is drawn just below the words "BLK-YEL")))
Wear rubber gloves and/or exercise care not to touch metal parts like solder-lugs - then try: Toggle-Off the pin - manually reset the Control-Bank - the QB-Relay and ZB-Relay must reset and stay resetted (as You have toggled-off the main power switch in advance) - NOW TOGGLE ON THE PIN - THE QB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE, THE ZB-RELAY WILL PLUNGE --- THEN (manually) press the armature of H-Relay - does it stay pulling ? - then (manually) press the armature of R-Relay - does it stay pulling ? IF (if, if) "NOT Both are pulling": Ask a friend to manually press the armature of H-Relay and manually press the armature of R-Relay (ask Your friend to press both armatures at the same time - press both for a while) ---IF (if, if) both ar pulling: You do not need the help of a friend.
So the pin is toggled-on, the QB-Relay has plunged, ZB-Relay has plunged - in some way the R-Relay is pulling and in some way the H-Relay is pulling --- and You now manually reset the Control-Bank and let go on the reset-arm --- what are QB- and ZB-Relay do ? They stay resetted ? Or do they (faulty) plunge again ? Greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf!

Both the H relay and the R relay stayed energized when I manually activated them. Then, when I pushed the reset arm QB and ZB remained reset!

What next?

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#14 6 years ago
 
RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

CH Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi alveolus
toggle-off the pin and toggle-on again --- the QB-Relay and the ZB-Relay will plunge --- then manually activate the R-Relay and the H-Relay - they stay pulling (or Your friend does activate them manually, permanent) --- then start a game. Greetings Rolf

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#15 6 years ago
OP
 
PEA

alveolus

Pinside member

US Oklahoma City, OK

12y 87,300 2,884 13 30

Quoted from MarkG:

Does the R/Hold relay fire when you start a game? It should fire when the S/Start relay fires and closes the S switch, and then hold itself through the R switch circled here:

If it doesn't stay on, check all the circled switches.

SUCCESS!

The R relay never fired on startup.

The tilt/bounce switches seemed to be appropriately closed.

Your post directed me to check the switch on the S relay. I cleaned this switch and adjusted it slightly and the game is starting correctly.

Thanks to all who helped!

1 week later
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#16 6 years ago
 
???

mrbanjo

Inactive member

US Ottumwa, IA

8y 27,900 556 8

I'm having similar issue with 72 Gottlieb Wild Life.
Power on machine:
QB relay (game Over pulls in)
ZB relay pulls in
Tried Rolf's idea above
powered off, rest bank relays, powered on game over pulled in, manually pulled H relay (holding) manually pulled S relay
(holding) score motor continues to run forever. until you pull bank relay reset, stops score motor game over pulled in!

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#17 6 years ago
 
HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

US Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

This thread is marked as solved so you should probably start a new thread.

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