New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 180412)

1972 Fireball puts 2 balls in shooter lane at once


By eju201

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 18 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by djblouw
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 5 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

C57EDE79-D1F8-4433-92B5-949E45F2454D (resized).jpeg
E2DB545B-AD94-47E3-A956-9A7A3101A9A5 (resized).jpeg
631EB5CA-E798-4A32-8A60-9B4A220BBB8A (resized).jpeg
Pinball (resized).png
0Fireball-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#1 3 years ago

**moving this post to this, more appropriate section. sorry for the duplicate!**

Hi all, I'm a proud enthusiast but not a tech at all. I do not solder...yet. Have a gorgeous working Fireball 1972 and accidentally did something to confuse the game logic: now it pops 2 balls into the shooter lane one right after the other when you lock a ball in either the Odin or the Wotan holes. It will also pop 2 balls into the shooter lane at the beginning of a turn in a multi-player game if there is a ball locked in one of those holes when your turn begins. I think when I cleaned it or otherwise removed the balls from the playfield temporarily I left the machine in a state of expecting a ball somewhere, or a switch un-tripped....and now I have this problem.

Possibly related: I had an earlier issue where a ball would get stuck on its way out to the shooter lane, but it was not predictable or repeatable (the problem I have now is repeatable). It would happen intermittently, every 30 balls or so. I was advised to adjust the leaf switches under the ball ejector. Did I over-do it, and could this be the source of the above? In the old, mis-filed post, chas10e was kind enough to suggest the middle leaf switch staying closed as the culprit. If it is, what then about my stuck ball problem?

Thanks!

#2 3 years ago

Hi eju201
in the old times I used to play the Fireball - fun, fast, tricky. I do not remember the rules in detail.
The ipdb-schematics is not very good and I struggle with words like #1 Through Switch and more.

First - I hope for "Luck - really Luck". See the JPG, "encircled red, three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on Outhole-Relay, middle-blade has wire-color-black-white soldered-on, outer-blades: wire-color-orange-red, wire-color-white-blue".
Fault "at the beginning of a turn ..." questions: Does the Outhole-Relay pull-in ? ONE ball is kicked-out and then the Outhole-Relay quits pulling ? OR: ONE ball is kicked-out and then the Outhole-Relay STAYS pulling ? WHEN the Outhole-Relay is pulling: IS THE CONNECTION on the mentioned M&B-Switch black-white to orange-red TRUELY open ? THIS M&B-Switch is my "hoping for Luck - faulty-connection black-white to orange-red" --- are we lucky ?

If "no luck" - You must ask Yourself: "Do I want to help Rolf to understand the schematics ?"
If "Yes" - questions to help me understanding the schematics - see in the JPG the "encircled red" stuff:
When a ball is in the "Wotan-Hole" - does the Wotan-Hole-Relay constantly pull ?
Same with Odin.
I believe the "Outhole-Kicker-Solenoid" is the Kicker (below, between the flipper-bats) every modern EM-Pin has - WHERE is the "Ball-Release-Solenoid" mounted ? Also at the Outhole ? OR: Where ?
When all three balls are not in play: Do the balls lay in a trough - permanently closing #1Trough-Switch and #2-Trough-Switch and #3-Trough-Switch ?
When one ball is kicked-out: Do the remaining two balls ROLL a bit ? OR: Stay in place ?
When one ball is kicked-out: WHAT switches are closed by the two remaining balls ? #1 and #2 ? OR #2 and #3 ? OR #1 and #3 ? (see the JPG for colors of soldered-on wires to identify these three #1,#2,#3 switches).

There are more questions - for now - If You answer the questions above: I can get into "understanding the schematics", greetings Rolf

0Fireball-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#3 3 years ago

Kind of sounds like this problem on a 4MBC (also a bally zipper flipper game).

Answer basically was they messed up what the machine thought was the state of captured balls.

#4 3 years ago

On these bally multi-ball games, there's a trick to prevent the problem of more than one ball in the shooter lane.

what happens, assuming everything else (see schematic) looks good, is the balls don't roll down the trough lane fast enough. And the game actual over-reacts, and you end up with more than one ball in the shooter lane. it has to do with the timing of the score motor, and the closure of the trough switches. It's not difficult to get a "perfect storm" of things, so that you get more than one ball in the shooter lane.

So there's two ways to fix this problem. One is to polish the trough metal so the balls roll in the trough faster. But probably the easier method is to play with the adjustment of the trough switches.

I'm a big advocate of having EM switches in general gaped fairly close. This provides a good wiping motion on the switches, which helps keep them clean (and the game running consistently well over a long period of time.) But with the bally multi-ball trough switches, you can't do this. The switches must have a fairly wide gap. If they don't, the timing of the balls rolling down the trough can make it so you end up with more than one ball in the shooter lane.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

On these bally multi-ball games, there's a trick to prevent the problem of more than one ball in the shooter lane.
what happens, assuming everything else (see schematic) looks good, is the balls don't roll down the trough lane fast enough. And the game actual over-reacts, and you end up with more than one ball in the shooter lane. it has to do with the timing of the score motor, and the closure of the trough switches. It's not difficult to get a "perfect storm" of things, so that you get more than one ball in the shooter lane.
So there's two ways to fix this problem. One is to polish the trough metal so the balls roll in the trough faster. But probably the easier method is to play with the adjustment of the trough switches.
I'm a big advocate of having EM switches in general gaped fairly close. This provides a good wiping motion on the switches, which helps keep them clean (and the game running consistently well over a long period of time.) But with the bally multi-ball trough switches, you can't do this. The switches must have a fairly wide gap. If they don't, the timing of the balls rolling down the trough can make it so you end up with more than one ball in the shooter lane.

I had a similar problem with my Fireball with the trough lane feed speed & score motor timing.

Their wasn't two ball being sent to the shooter lane in my case, what happened was everything was normal except when their was a three ball multiball happening, the third multiball in play became affected once the first two drained.

As soon as that second multiball drained the game became confused with that third ball in play & features were not registering correctly or locking the ball just on that third multiball. I pulled the apron off & observed the balls were only just making it over the hump, very slow, to the trough from the outhole & in the meantime the score motor was activating before it hit the switch in the trough, I thought this may affect the sequence.

In my case the outhole kicker assembly was totally gummed up, so I pulled it apart cleaned it , fitted a new sleeve & it shot the ball through very fast as it should. The game then played 100%.

I think it's a good idea to pull apart the outhole assembly & clean it as I did, at least to rule out this possibility.

#6 3 years ago

Exactly what orangestorm87 said - watch the link to the second video. Look at the locking relays on Fireball, in particular the interlock relay for the . If that mechanism is locked in it turns into a 2 ball game and will kick out an "extra" ball when 3 are in play.

#7 3 years ago

Just like on a modern game, I usually find this issue on Fireball is related to the trough switches. Remove the apron and carefully inspect the trough switches for proper operation. Clean up the trough path as well to make sure balls are rolling smoothly.

-1
#8 3 years ago
Quoted from eju201:

**moving this post to this, more appropriate section. sorry for the duplicate!**
Hi all, I'm a proud enthusiast but not a tech at all. I do not solder...yet. Have a gorgeous working Fireball 1972 and accidentally did something to confuse the game logic: now it pops 2 balls into the shooter lane one right after the other when you lock a ball in either the Odin or the Wotan holes. It will also pop 2 balls into the shooter lane at the beginning of a turn in a multi-player game if there is a ball locked in one of those holes when your turn begins. I think when I cleaned it or otherwise removed the balls from the playfield temporarily I left the machine in a state of expecting a ball somewhere, or a switch un-tripped....and now I have this problem.
Possibly related: I had an earlier issue where a ball would get stuck on its way out to the shooter lane, but it was not predictable or repeatable (the problem I have now is repeatable). It would happen intermittently, every 30 balls or so. I was advised to adjust the leaf switches under the ball ejector. Did I over-do it, and could this be the source of the above? In the old, mis-filed post, chas10e was kind enough to suggest the middle leaf switch staying closed as the culprit. If it is, what then about my stuck ball problem?
Thanks!

How did you go with this problem as I'm just about to start fault finding on my fireball with the same problem?

#9 3 years ago

Hi Toads
"eju201" wrote post-1 - then no more posting, 6 pinsiders offered help. Now "You Toads have also this problem" - want to take-over the topic --- and inform us about "You have tried suggestion-X, -Y ... and the results are ..." ? Greetings Rolf

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from Toads:

How did you go with this problem as I'm just about to start fault finding on my fireball with the same problem?

If you try the solutions suggested here, I'm sure you're problem will be fixed. And please post if you do fix it as Rolf suggested.

#11 3 years ago

It will be a week or so before i get around to looking at it however i will post what i find.

1 month later
#12 3 years ago

Ever get this fixed?

8 months later
#13 2 years ago

Hi everyone! I had no idea anyone had replied to my original thread, I am so sorry for my accidental silence. I am truly grateful that you all stepped in to help.

Here's the update: the "2 balls in the shooter lane" problem just went away. Maybe enough playing sorted it out. I also have a 4M BC and saw that video which orangestorm posted...the 4M BC game had this issue once and I pressed the switch and it sorted out...I may have done the same with Fireball while monkeying around, but one way or another it's gone.

The "ball gets stuck ON THE WAY to the shooter lane" problem has only gotten worse. Is this the "outhole"? When I last posted about this, it happened only occasionally...now that ball gets stuck as much as 1 out of 4 times. To keep playing I open up the coin door and manually depress the solenoid that kicks the ball into the shooting lane. Wondering what my next step might be?

And Rolf, you are very generous to offer help with that diagram, but I don't think I understand even a little bit of that!

Thanks again everyone
e

3 months later
#14 2 years ago

Okay, I'm going to resurrect this thread, as I have the same issue with my Fireball as the OP, but didn't see a solution posted.

To re-cap: At the start of a game, only one ball is put into the shooter lane. Everything works as it should during game play. If you lock a ball in the Odin or Wotan scoop, two balls are released into the shooter lane--one at a time--the ball release solenoid fires two separate time.

For trouble shooting, here's what I've got so far:
-This happens with Odin or Wotan Hole. They both exhibit the same behavior.
-With no balls in the trough (and a ball locked in Odin or Wotan), I can manually close #1 trough switch, and the ball release solenoid will fire continuously.
-The ball trough switches are gapped rather far, but still have a nice wiping motion when activated.
-The trough is clean, and the balls roll down freely, with no hesitation.
-There is not a hold relay for multi-ball as shown in 4MBC.
-I have visually checked the Odin & Wotan relay, and all switched appear to be in proper working order (although I did not use a meter to confirm)

So, what should the next steps be?

Thanks

#15 2 years ago

I would turn the game off and unplug it, then put a meter on the trough switches and activate them with a ball to see if one of them isn't working.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I would turn the game off and unplug it, then put a meter on the trough switches and activate them with a ball to see if one of them isn't working.

Sure, I'll give that a try tonight.

However, since it doesn't happen at the start of a game (when all 3 balls are in the trough), I can't see how a non working trough switch would only show during a ball lock. But then again, I still struggle with schematics so I could be missing something simple.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from djblouw:

If you lock a ball in the Odin or Wotan scoop, two balls are released into the shooter lane--one at a time--the ball release solenoid fires two separate time.

Check these 7 switches. One of them is probably stuck closed.

Pinball (resized).png

#18 2 years ago

We have a winner!!!

I started checking continuity on the trough switches. Everything was okay, until the trough got bumped or a switch activated.
631EB5CA-E798-4A32-8A60-9B4A220BBB8A (resized).jpeg

I removed all the switches from the trough and everything checked out properly. Upon further examination, I found that the fish paper was shifted, causing the wire switch to make contact with the leaf of the switch, shorting it to the other switches.
E2DB545B-AD94-47E3-A956-9A7A3101A9A5 (resized).jpeg

I tried loosening switch stack and moving the fish paper, but it didn’t seem to be wide enough. So my solution was to add some heat shrink to the wire switch.
C57EDE79-D1F8-4433-92B5-949E45F2454D (resized).jpeg

And problem solved. Odin and Wotan are now behaving properly.

Thanks all for the insight everybody!!

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
$ 9.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
$ 100.00
Playfield - Protection
Beehive Pinball Co.
$ 334.95
$ 7.95
Various Novelties
PIC
From: $ 50.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Art Prints
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 25.00
Apparel - Unisex
Project Pinball Charity
$ 26.50
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 299.00
Displays
Boston Pinball Company
$ 7,999.00
Pinball Machine
Great American Pinball
From: $ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
$ 159.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 159.99
$ 25.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
$ 199.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 24.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
pinballmod
$ 114.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 124.00
Lighting - Interactive
Hookedonpinball.com
From: $ 161.50
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 49.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
$ 5,899.00
Pinball Machine
Gulf Coast Pinball, LLC
$ 700.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Great American Pinball
$ 29.95
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
From: $ 220.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
CzTV Mods

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside