(Topic ID: 182543)

1972 Bally Space Time - Finished!

By manples

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Learmud
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There are 96 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 7 years ago

Just like 3 days ago, I actually had an odd problem with an early 60s williams machine that I had fully redone where as I played, if I earned a credit/free game, the credit wheel would lock coil on and I had to shut off machine. I double checked and adjusted switches like 3 times, manual moved up and down, etc....finally, I got out a little flex stone file, burnished the contacts a little (by gently going back and forth while holding contacts together lightly), and tried again....

Played like a dozen+ games and havent had a problem again!

Just a short "something that happened to me" story in case it helps at all

#52 7 years ago

Ok I've fixed it !

This continuity problem from the score reset coil while having a good resistance (29ohms) on the reel coil made me suspicious about the soldering points.

First I removed the paper wrap and found that the coil wire was a little loose...

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so I removed the coil, took away few inches of wire and tried to solder it back right away. Bad idea. The coating on the wire prevents the soldering to stick. I bet it's the insulation that avoids a short inside the coil. Newbie in progress here
So I sanded the coil wire and soldered it back with freshly cut and cleaned cloth wires. The soldering doesn't look great on the picture but it's rock solid. Then I did put some masking blue tape around the coil, not sure it's gonna handle the heat but I'll let you know if I see some fire in the backbox...

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Finally I've checked the EOS and the 3 other switches for the 100th time and put the reel back.

Took a deep breath, tried the multimeter aaaannd... "beeeep" ! Got a continuity tone now !!

Turned ON the machine, pushed Start aaaannd... reel goes to 0 !

[pressure increases] fingers crossed I hit a 10 point switch aaaaannd........ it works! The score reel scores 10 points and no coil gets stucks !! works with the un-lit bumpers as well.

Cherry on top of the cake, the flickering on the bumpers has disappeared.

It feels so gooood. Thanks all for the tips and the troubleshooting.

Now I can go back to the restoration

#53 7 years ago

ok false joy.

I turned the machine OFF and ON again, pushed Start and the reset sequence doesn't work ( damn'it.

When I push start the score motor spins for 2 seconds then stops and the P1 reels don't go down to 0.

Fixed one problem to get another one, is it the EM path of the Samuraï ?

#54 7 years ago

Do the other players try to zero if you change them?

#55 7 years ago

Nope. The reset sequence doesn't work for any player.

#56 7 years ago

Messing with coil winding etc short something/blow a fuse or something?? Weird that it wasn't a problem and is now...would like to think it has something to do with area you were working in, but limited ideas in my head right now.

Did you just unwrap a winding or 2? Taking a lot off changes the coil. If the coil is bad, it may have cooked off some of the varinsh coating on wire further in, shorted out, and blew a fuse after a use or two....

Recheck ohms compaired to another coil and check fuses.

#57 7 years ago

Yep I've checked every coil in the backbox. Ohm values and continuity are ok. On the P1-10 point coil I've just unwrapped 2 or 3 windings so the resistance is still the same as the other coils.

So I went back to the cabinet and after checking that the fuses were ok I may have found the culprit :

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

It was probably weak and died with this overflow of joy and electricity from my previous fix

Anyway I'll order a new to PBR tomorrow and will see if I can get that reset sequence back.

#58 7 years ago

Manples,

Be careful that the low reading is not a failed coil if you did not desolder one of the connections to it - you have to do that to get a true reading otherwise it may be making a circuit via another way (coils, even though your recent experience does not support this, rarely fail).

And the "Lock" relay is often missing its wrapper, or at least has a charred wrapper, as its always on once power is applied.

I would desolder one connection and recheck it before you order - I think its highly unlikely the hold coil is causing your issue. I would go back to your original test, and with power off, set all the reels to "1". Then try the reset. I would guess that one or more score reel switches are not quite closed on 1-9 given that's where you have been working. Good luck!

#59 7 years ago

Ok thanks 4Max I'll leave the lock relay for now and you're right it seems to work even if it looks burnt.

I've tried to manually set all reels to 1. Power ON, start, still no reset sequence.

I've noticed that if I manually activate the reset coil (the one in the cabinet) then I have the reset sequence and can play, but then I have the all 4 players activated just like if I had push the Start button 4 times.

So, power OFF, manually set the Player Unit stepper to P1 (it was obviously on P4).

Re-start annnndd... reset sequence... with one stuck reel (P4-1000points),

So I've sanded the 3 switches and the EOS, adjusted the gaps (btw I'm getting better there, restarted annnnnnnd.... I have a clean reset sequence, player 1-2-3-4 are ok with all reels to 0 and all of the score switches work (10-100-500-1000), I have everything !!!

Almost. Just need to figure out why the 4000 points on the awesome Tunnel registers only 1000 points. 1000-2000-3000 and 5000 points work well.

I'm getting closer to a fully functional machine, yeah

#60 7 years ago

Cool, its getting better each time. I recommend you focus on just one issue, run that down, move on to next.

So, I would start with that P4 issue. At start up that should reset to player 1, by a pulse of the reset solenoid (rather than the one that steps up to 2, 3, 4). Do you have the schematic? If so, look to see what switches need to be made for that to fire. Its good to also use a jumper cable to eliminate each switch in turn - thats all again in the pinrepair bible.

Good luck!

#61 7 years ago

Sorry 4Max my description wasn't clear, in fact the reset sequence is all good with all 4 players. Everything else works so far except for that 4000 score in the tunnel that registers only 1000 points where the other scores (1000-2000-3000-5000) register the correct number of points.

#62 7 years ago

And yes I have the schematics but I'm so lazy that I will start to learn something easier like... Chinese

#63 7 years ago

Well, 3 years ago I looked at my first schematics and thought...yea, right, as if - plus I have never been an electrical engineer, etc, but...after about 3 months of advice from great people on here and a bit of trial and error (and sticking to one issue at a time) I am now fairly confident (only "fairly" as there's always more to learn)

Anyway, I still have a soft copy of the schematic, and seems to me it may just be as simply as ensuing a couple of score motor switches are both clean and adjusted correctly.

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I assume the numbers on tunnel disc align with number of 1,000's, so for 4 (4k) to score correctly looks like 4C and 9A would be worth a look.

For score motor switch numbering, see here:

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#motor

#64 7 years ago

4Max you are awesome!!

9A was dirty and mis adjusted. My 4000 tunnel now registers 4000 points so I'm very close to perfection.

I was afraid that removing the switch stacks of the score motor would mess up even more, but it went fine.

I think I'm now gonna gently clean every contact. Just in case

Btw, after a light sanding, workbench press flattened QTips + 91% alcohol is a pretty good solution to clean the contacts without pushing the blades too much.

#65 7 years ago

Ok the PF is now stripped. I've used the slided cardboard technique so everything kind of stayed in place.

Now ME + alcohol, then Novus 2, then mean green and I will start to worry about the clear.

I'd really like to follow vids tutorial and make a perfect job but this PF has too much wear and the color has faded a lot (especially the yellow) so it's never going to be perfect. I think I'll try to do my best to make it nice and playable. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up with spray cans of whatever you guys will recommend me to use

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#66 7 years ago

I've taped the screws with masking blue tape, too lazy to put them aside a label everything.

Also I took like 200 hundred pictures

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#67 7 years ago

Manples, I too had bad paint loss around the pop bumpers. Used this trick and was very pleased:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-worn-playfield-pop-bumper-area-cover#post-3441311

Also, I find that this set of (very cheap) paints from Michaels is very useful for simple playfield touch up as many are a good match with no mixing:

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If you look at my before and after pictures from the post above you will see I had similar wear to yours, but those paints (plus a set of ultra fine Sharpies) did a good enough job for me.

Now, back to that door of yours I have never done well with my Harbor Freight buffer, so was interested to see the tools you used, could you provide a little more detail about what you used in what order, as none of my doors look that good!

thanks

2 weeks later
#68 6 years ago

Hey 4Max sorry I've been busy working on the playfield touchups.

I've used your Americana paint kit and it came out very good! Just a small issue with the light "blue". First I've found the perfect match, it was nice and very close to the original. Looked great with the naphta too, as per vid's recommendation. But after the first clear coat, it became more contrasted. I've tried to retouch it but was totally unable to find a better match. So I left it as is.

And then the clear coat nightmare began...

I have a good compressor but I was too lazy to invest in a water filtering, a spray gun, a spray booth etc. so I went for the Spraymax 2k cans solution.

After the first light coat I did what the others said and sprayed some in a glass jar, then used an eyedropper to fill the cupped inserts. I was happy and I left the garage where the playfield was curing at nice 75 degrees / 60% humidity.

Came back 2 hours after to find thousands of bubbles locked into the filled inserts... Damn. I had to take the dremel and grindstone the 4 inserts. A total mess. The perfect black rings and the paint around were damaged. Didn't take pictures, too upset at this point.

I ended up buying the real clear coat - just for my cupped inserts! yes $50 but I'll be able to fill at least 500 cupped inserts with it )
It's a good'ole very toxic 2 parts from a car paint shop. This time with a syringe, the inserts were filled by a crystal clear liquid and no bubbles appeared... pfeeww. Perfect result.

But it would have been to easy if I didn't fill the inserts... too much. As per vid's scale I'm a rookie and I'm supposed to use a hand sand block. So sending down these overfilled inserts took - literally - forever (500 grit). And of course, doing so, I've sanded some areas too low and I had to touchup paint again.

Anyway after that I've applied 2 "wet" coats, sanding in between. Now 2 cans are gone. Had to order another one. $60 so far. And I'm not sure it'll be enough to have a dead flat playfield...

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But now let's go back to the door In fact it's all in the picture. Just that, and lot of elbow grease.

I've used the wired wheels only on the back and on the hinge. These wheels go very deep so they're not recommended on the door skin and other visible parts unless you want to spend 3 days of sanding

On the door skin basically:

1. on a flat hard surface I used a hammer to de-bump some areas and get the whole square as flat as I possible.
2. sanding with the flaps wheel (I think it's a 80 grit), not pushing too hard, always moving and changing the sanding angle.
3. hand-wetsanding from 220-500-800-1000 with some dish soap and warm water in a bucket. Also make you have a comfortable chair and that you're listening to the entire Led Zeppelin discography in the meantime
4. Once dry I use the polishing wheels at max speed with the black stick first (emeri) and then the white stick. I've bought that at HF a while ago. I'm pretty sure there is an easier way with a real electric polisher and some metal/chrome car product but I've used what I had.
5. eventually a good Meangreen clean to get rid of the polishing wax and tadaa: a mirror for your crotch

I'll do the lockdown bar soon, I'll not make it shine too much because if I do I will have to do the side rails as well and it's way too much work !

Finally while the playfield will be curing, I will clean everything. I''ll do ALL the switches with Nico's magic brush (that's totally awesome), will put all metal parts/screws/springs in the tumbler, will rebuild the flippers, bumpers, change every coil sleeves. And while I have the dremel out I will go back the to backbox and disassemble every score reels relays and magic brush them to ensure perfect contacts.

And then we'll see

#69 6 years ago

Well you are certainly going "all-in". I have not had the brass cojones to clear coat a playfield.

Thanks for the run down on the door, I'll take that challenge on my next machine.

"Nico's magic brush" what's that?

As for the issues you had, I think we all have those and have to put that down to "great learnings" ready for the next one

#70 6 years ago

It's the Nicholas Schell (aka @nicovolta) "life-changing" pro-tip about the Dremel #443 carbon-steel brush

Here's the thing: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1515859252011820/permalink/1864209737176768/

He's about to post a video with details and I bet it will soon endup in the tech section here.

I was worried first because my brush didn't look like his. Out of the box the wires are straight. But after a moment they bend themselves around and form some kind of a "ball" and you can use the Dremel sideways to "gold-clean" every contact.

It works so well that after my playfield is done, I'll go through every contact on every relay on the relay board and in the backbox. It'll take some time because you need to loose down the switch stacks but after that, it will narrow down potential problems to bad adjustment, bad soldering, shorts and sick coils.

#71 6 years ago

Howdy neighbor (and Bally fan)! The Magic Brush made its first appearance in my ongoing pinball tour at Orin Day's house... link is here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nics-american-pinball-tour-aka-im-coming-to-fix-your-games/page/8#post-3732185

Yes, indeed... it is the future of Team EM. Top to bottom, wall to wall, it will transform all... and is a pleasure to use.

No more sawing away at contacts and rivets with sandpaper or files.

Tonight's stepper visited by The Brush:

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All the best in your restoration. Post pics of those gleaming contacts!

#72 6 years ago

That's awesome. This stepper is probably 40 years old and it looks just new.

Meanwhile at Dremel's headquarters:

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#73 6 years ago

Nico,

I need to ask a stupid question on the Magic Brush, as I see you used it on stepper contacts, but you also use it on relay switches? It just looks like its quite big to squeeze inbetween them?

(Saying that, I've already put a Dremmel 8220 and the brushes in my Amazon basket awaiting your response - any excuse for a new tool )

#74 6 years ago

All contacts and rivets get the brush, top to bottom. You can reach most of the ones in the switch stacks around a Gottlieb score motor while in place and score reel switches too... but some pieces will need to be partially disassembled to get to them. Relays definitely.

Will post details on the full "relay process" in an upcoming episode on the tour. Checking the ladder, implementing bias, etc. Stay tuned.

1 month later
#75 6 years ago

And so the clear coat process turned into a nightmare...

The 4th coat was supposed to be the last but I had fisheye everywhere with one freaking hair + dust + a bug... all stuck in that last layer and I didn't see anything before it was dry. Unbelievable.

As per vid1900 tutorial I filled the low spots, flat-sanded the whole playfield and sprayed a 5th coat ($100 in total...)

After 2 weeks of curing everything looked good so I decided to start the wet sanding. I used a 6" orbital dual-action polisher from Harbor Freight with 6" wet/dry sand paper, from 600/800/1000/1500/2000, on low speed.

The final result looked good so I polished the playfield with the Meguiars Medium cut, just to discover a billion of deep swirls... really awful under the light.

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So I started over with 800 very carefully, then the grits up and then polished again. Still the swirls... argh.

I then went on YouTube to search for a good wet sanding tutorial and I saw this guy with a Target Alpha playfield. He just block sanded manually with a pretty fast motion and a LOT of water.

So tried that this morning, manually wet sanded from 800/1000/1500/2000 in a back and forth motion, from the bottom to the top of the playfield.

Swirls were gone and the sanding marks were really tiny so I started the polishing process.

Et voilà :

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What a nice playfield!!!!

Looks perfect right?

Well, it's not

I'm pretty sure that water found a way to the lowest - and most visible - insert. So it's now "cracking" while the rest of the playfield is absolutely perfect and flat.

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I think I'll just put some Mylar on it or maybe duct tape so I won't see it anymore. Or drill it down and bondo it and leave it like that. Or maybe put a bumper right there... I'm totally pissed off now. No way I start the process over

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from manples:

I'm pretty sure that water found a way to the lowest - and most visible - insert. So it's now "cracking" while the rest of the playfield is absolutely perfect and flat.

Water did not do that.

That gap needs to be filled by dripping 2PAC into it.

Scrape up the gap with an Exacto so the 2PAC has some tooth, sand the surrounding area maybe 5mm around the gap.

#77 6 years ago

Thanks Vid. I was sure you were gonna say that and I was secretly hoping for a simpler method

From your experience, do you think I can get a not too visible result? Sanding flat on such a small area is not easy I presume. I'm concerned it's not gonna be even with the rest of the playfield.

Anyway, I suppose I must fill it very carefully (maybe in 2 or 3 times?) until it's flush so the sanding would be very limited? Can I do it with a finger and tiny pieces of sand paper or should I use some kind of tool?

Thanks again !

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from manples:

From your experience, do you think I can get a not too visible result?

It should be invisible unless the clear is more than a month old.

Quoted from manples:

Anyway, I suppose I must fill it very carefully (maybe in 2 or 3 times?)

Just one fill, overfilled slightly.

Quoted from manples:

Can I do it with a finger and tiny pieces of sand paper or should I use some kind of tool?

You need something dead flat, like a small sanding block.

Not your finger.

You will buff out any resulting scratches, just like you did with the whole playfield

#79 6 years ago

Awesome Vid, thank you!

Will post the result soon.

#80 6 years ago

Hey master vid1900 (or any other PF resto god I might need your expert advice again...

Dug in the crack with an exacto blade to find out it was deep and with weird angles so I ended up using a Dremel with a round tip to make it clean.

The crack was so deep that I've reached the black paint around the insert so I had to touch it up.

I've filled it with 2pac clear but the result wasn't good. It's like if the clear mixed up with the paint to reveal some clear areas underneath. Very ugly to look at especially in this very visible place.

So I've dremeled it again, painted it again and that where I am now:

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(Yes I have some bubbles caught right above the insert but I can live with that).

I'm just wondering if I should do one big overfill now or try to do several "light" fills. What do you think?

#81 6 years ago

So I've filled this trench with some clear but once cured I had some "white" spots just like if air found its way underneath. And that's actually what happened.

So back to the Dremel and ready to start over:

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I was thinking to very lightly fill with clear so it would seal any air entry and then black paint and then clear overfill.

Or - foolish idea - maybe but I could fill it with a black sealer that will stay clean under the last overall clear shot ?? Yes, a black clear ))

It would make sense here because once sanded flat I'll have a nice black ring around the insert, maybe a little bit "floaty" but still better that the mess that I have now...

Any silicon free product you guys have in mind ?

9 months later
#82 6 years ago

Few months later

I'm done with the playfield but the fix will not make the purists happy. Pictures will follow. I didn't replace the inserts and that's probably what I should have done. Lessons learned for the next one. Instead, I've filled the inserts, sanded flat, covered them with white decals and finally added black ring decals. Please don't roast me ok?

Next is the cabinet.

Too many dents, scratches, lifted plywood, color fading on the side that was obviously exposed too sun everyday, etc.

So I sanded it down with some 60 grit and used 2 cans of bondo, followed by a whole tube of glazy putty to achieve a good flatness.

Primed with Killz original (oil based) using a Harbor Freignt HLVP gun, in a home-made spray booth.

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2 coats, sanding with 150 and 220

Then direction the rotisserie for the base coat and tooth brush splatter:

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No drama for the painting, spray cans, standard colors. It matched the original tones pretty well, but it's hard to know how they looked like straight from the factory in 1972. Even the flyers may have faded so I want to believe that it's a perfect match

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Final result includes some nice overspray and imperfections that I find pretty cool

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Finished the clear today (same Rustoleum cans, clear satin).

Got to dismantle the spray booth now and prepare everything for the next step: playfield polish and repopulation!

#83 6 years ago

Playfield wet sanded and polished.

Yes, it's far from perfect. Some touch up are really obvious, especially around the bumpers. I spent few hours to match that blue, it was almost perfect when wiped with Naphta but once covered with clear, it turn out not so good. Worst part is definitely the masked inserts, but I couldn't find the strength to start over, replace them, and go through the whole clearing process. After 5 cans of SprayMax I gave up and thought it won't be too bad with the space theme and the surrounding colors.

Anyway, this is my first resto, hopefully next one will look better

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Now let's the fun begin !

#84 6 years ago

Looking good! Would love to play a Space Time someday.

1 week later
#85 5 years ago

99% finished!!!

Here are some before/after pictures:

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Everything works except for some light bulbs that dim/flicker then work again and dim/flicker again. It happens to:

Backglass:
- all "Ball in play"
- players 2-3-4

Playfield:
All playfield bulbs were 100% working before I moved the machine inside the house...
but then some lights started to have the same work/dim/flicker/work/etc. behaviour:

- lower gate
- all tunnel lights...

When I start the game they work for few seconds then dim/flicker, then randomly work again and dim again.

Yes they all are leds lights (cointaker retro for those visible and non-ghosting premium everywhere else) and the playfield lights were working prior to the disassembly, move and reassembly inside.

I'll check again all the switches and regap if necessary. I've checked all the soldering, tugged the wires, everything looks normal so far.

I didn't check back the board though, maybe something here?

Also, my transfo is making a loud buzz. Just read yesterday that a solid hit with a rubber malet should demagnetize it. We'll see.

Both flipper coils buzz too (when activated). I'll try to realign the plungers and coil stops + firmly screw everything back.

On a side note, my backglass is far from perfect and my touchups are ugly especially on the guy's face.
So to lessen the problem, I've removed the 3 lamps behind his face and plugged like 6-7 #455 GE flashers all around and it turned out awesome.
I strongly suggest that to all of you who have Space time/Time zone pinball machines, because the flashing lights around him make all buttons/gauges blinking like a real time machine, it's really awesome.

#86 5 years ago

Wow! That game is lucky to have found the right owner. Looks incredible.

#87 5 years ago

Thanks Bord )

#88 5 years ago

Alright, I've fixed the playfield lights.

Now I just have to figure out that random flicker on the "ball in play" lights and sometimes the ones under the Players number.

I've checked all switches and all gaps. Maybe the stepper units?

Any pro advice will be much appreciated

#89 5 years ago

Looks really good! Well done

1 week later
#90 5 years ago

Re-clean and tighten your Jones plugs, that should solve the lights flickering.

1 year later
#91 4 years ago

Very nice,

I just picked up one of these, I'm going to use some of your ideas and changes.

What did you use for a gasket for The Time Tunnel? Can't seem to find something that fits?

Thanks!

#92 4 years ago
Quoted from Learmud:

Very nice,
I just picked up one of these, I'm going to use some of your ideas and changes.
What did you use for a gasket for The Time Tunnel? Can't seem to find something that fits?
Thanks!

I've used some thin packaging foam, cut with an xacto blade and then sprayed it in black, nothing fancy
I did several tries before having the round window completely flush, you definitely have to play with the screws.

#93 4 years ago
Quoted from Learmud:

Very nice,
I just picked up one of these, I'm going to use some of your ideas and changes.
What did you use for a gasket for The Time Tunnel? Can't seem to find something that fits?
Thanks!

Just for another idea. I have refurbed two TZ’s and painted the wood at the top under the plastic black. Then used tiny stainless steel washers as spacers between the plastic and wood.

#94 4 years ago
Quoted from manples:

I've used some thin packaging foam, cut with an xacto blade and then sprayed it in black, nothing fancy
I did several tries before having the round window completely flush, you definitely have to play with the screws.

I used the kitchen cabinet linings from Lowe's, it's soft and gave it some needed adjusting to be flush. I discovered a large tomato can is a perfect inner round so cutting inner first then used the cover for a good fit.. It's white but fist goal is to get it up and running ... thanks for sharing all this!

I dropped one of the screws and spent an hour on knees hunting for it. Note: get a better light and a strong magnet!
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#95 4 years ago

Learmud , is that the Space Time that was at "the club" ? ... looking forward to playing it

Shawn

#96 4 years ago
Quoted from chas10e:

learmud , is that the Space Time that was at "the club" ? ... looking forward to playing it
Shawn

Shawn,

If your referring to some gaming place in germany perhaps. This was in the netherlands at some point, vender perhaps? and the coin slot was jammed with German Deutsche marks. Lol it's been around for sure!

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