1972 Bally Space Time - Finished!

(Topic ID: 182543)

1972 Bally Space Time - Finished!


By manples

1 year ago



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  • 90 posts
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  • Latest reply 4 months ago by FUNWIZ
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

[EDIT 03-10] I first asked here if I should or shouldn't restore this Bally Space Time: https://goo.gl/photos/Y5sZK81VeexuTaF88 considering the fact that I never had an EM.

And you all agreed that I should do it so let's do it

First steps few posts below.

#2 1 year ago

personally I would get new rubbers (including shooter tip) , new ball and get it running to play.

I have gotten them in worse shape and make 'em play, it's all part of the fun for me.

a great thread of a full restore of a similar machine here, https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-four-million-bc-restore

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from chas10e:

personally I would get new rubbers (including shooter tip) , new ball and get it running to play.
I have gotten them in worse shape and make 'em play, it's all part of the fun for me.
a great thread of a full restore of a similar machine here, https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-four-million-bc-restore

Ok I will order that and we'll see !

#4 1 year ago

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#top

lot of great insight on what to do in link above. it can be a tedious endeavor but enjoyable

#5 1 year ago

Several "pluses" here:
Game looks complete and no really obvious hacks or damage.
It's a great, fun game when up and running.
Some playfield wear, but not really all that bad.
If you do make a mistake and make something worse instead of better, it's not the end of the world.

Absolutely get this baby up and playing. Have some fun with it!

#6 1 year ago

Yes, but do it properly, strip and clean the playfield , do all your steppers the whole nine yards, just don't get it running. do it right and then play the hell out of it.
when you get bored of it, sell it get another and start again.

P.S. I learned this from a pinball God . Change out all your Fuse holders. Bally's have notoriously bad fuse holders and can give you issues you don't need. Change them all first thing .

Have fun. Old Bally's are the Best !

Sir Brian of Ortonville

#7 1 year ago

Fuse holder and fuses ordered ! Thanks Bribo13 !

And thanks all for your encouragement, I'll do my best to restore it right with respect and love

As a pinball virgin I'm still scared by some stuff like the salvaged coin door wires but I'll figure this out with the schematics/manual.
I guess the previous owner has tried to set it to free play...

#8 1 year ago

Word of advice: If the coin door isn't wired up properly, the game won't even attempt to start. My Captain Fantastic had ALL of the wires pulled out--it was a mess--but the game wouldn't do a thing until I got schematics and rewired it.

Good luck!

#9 1 year ago

Manples, I just sold my Space Time - its a great machine. Yours looks in good shape.

There are plenty of threads on Pinside to help when it comes to cleaning, repairing, etc, and yes to this:

Mine cleaned up pretty good, plus this set of cheap paints from Michael's has colors that matched pretty close to the machine:

f07090b128523ca2600ba95b4a43c26fa6a25345 (resized).jpg

One more thing I remember with mine was that I had to completely disassemble the motor that drives the time tunnel. At first I thought I could get away with a cursory clean, but that thing has to run super smooth to avoid blown fuses. Once I gave it the cleaning it deserved, it ran beautifully.

Finally, its one of the few EM machines where the schematic is on IPDB:

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2262

I got it printed at Staples for $6.

Great game to restore, and there's plenty of people here to help....

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from 4Max:

Manples, I just sold my Space Time - its a great machine. Yours looks in good shape.
There are plenty of threads on Pinside to help when it comes to cleaning, repairing, etc, and yes to this:

Mine cleaned up pretty good, plus this set of cheap paints from Michael's has colors that matched pretty close to the machine:

One more thing I remember with mine was that I had to completely disassemble the motor that drives the time tunnel. At first I thought I could get away with a cursory clean, but that thing has to run super smooth to avoid blown fuses. Once I gave it the cleaning it deserved, it ran beautifully.
Finally, its one of the few EM machines where the schematic is on IPDB:
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2262
I got it printed at Staples for $6.
Great game to restore, and there's plenty of people here to help....

what size was the schematics ? or rather how big can you get ?

#11 1 year ago

I had one of these I lucked into for 25 bucks when I first got into pinball collecting. About the same shape as yours.
I got it running and man it was a blast. I sold it for 200 dollars later and I always regretted it.
As far as EMs go Id rank it up near the top, IMO. Fix it up and play it!

#12 1 year ago

Fixing it up is half the fun! I bet you have it running in a month or two.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from chas10e:

what size was the schematics ? or rather how big can you get ?

They printed it on 48 x 24 paper, its about 44 x 12 when printed - so folder longways it looks pretty much like an original.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

Word of advice: If the coin door isn't wired up properly, the game won't even attempt to start. My Captain Fantastic had ALL of the wires pulled out--it was a mess--but the game wouldn't do a thing until I got schematics and rewired it.
Good luck!

Ok. I've found the schematics so I'll rewire this coin door properly. Not sure how to set it in free play though. Maybe it's in the manual.

Quoted from 4Max:

[...] this set of cheap paints from Michael's has colors that matched pretty close to the machine [...] One more thing I remember with mine was that I had to completely disassemble the motor that drives the time tunnel. At first I thought I could get away with a cursory clean, but that thing has to run super smooth to avoid blown fuses. Once I gave it the cleaning it deserved, it ran beautifully.

The playfield needs some paint job, this value pack seems great, thanks! For the time tunnel motor I've also read that it can produce a loud annoying noise. Hopefully the disassembly+cleaning will fix the blowing fuses problem and lower the overall noise

Damn', those guides you're all mentioning are great, my brain hurts but I'll keep reading them before taking any action

1 week later
#15 1 year ago

So I started by removing the panel that holds everything inside the cabinet and cleaned the dust with an air compressor.

First thing : I've ordered a fuse holder (and fuses) from PBR and installed them :

Fuses (resized).PNG

#16 1 year ago

Then I visually inspected everything (switches, cables, etc.) and found nothing too bad so far except 3 relays that are pretty brown.

I've bought the schematics where I can read the Ohms value for each type of relay, so I've verified all of them with a digital MM: all good ! even the brown ones.

I have a problem though. Some labels in front of the relays are missing (maybe eaten by a mouse?).

The last 3 on the top are G-31-2000 relay (49 ohms), I don't know what they are related to. Maybe 10, 100, 1000 point from a decipher attempt of the schematics... The 4th is very probably the Extra Ball as is the only one G-32-2500 (78 ohms) left on the schematics.

Any Space Time owner willing to take a picture of his label on the right side please ? that would be awesome

Capture2 (resized).PNG

#17 1 year ago

You may have already seen this from ipdb hard to make out the labels....

IMG_1767 (resized).JPG

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Bribo13:

Yes, but do it properly, strip and clean the playfield , do all your steppers the whole nine yards, just don't get it running. do it right and then play the hell out of it.

Sir Bribo is a bunch of right. I, too, am pretty wet behind the ears, but I managed to bumble my way through a non-working barn-find and get it running. Here's that attempt from a newbie's perspective:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-swinger-restoration-and-eventual-retheme

...maybe that'll help, too. Good luck!

Following,
Ryan

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from manples:

So I started by removing the panel that holds everything inside the cabinet and cleaned the dust with an air compressor.
First thing : I've ordered a fuse holder (and fuses) from PBR and installed them :

Since another newbie recently got shocked I'll bring it up: Remember your 110V line voltage fuse is always electrified when the game is plugged in regardless if the master cabinet switch is on or off, I could see how that is easy to overlook down the line. Unplug the game when messing with certain things, the schematic will let you know where that section of always-on high voltage (not a great mix, huh...) is.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Here's that attempt from a newbie's perspective:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-swinger-restoration-and-eventual-retheme
...maybe that'll help, too.

Thanks Ryan, I favorited your post, very impressive and instructive!

I got some help on Facebook from Nick Destefano who kindly took a picture of his Time Zone, so the missing labels are Left Alley, Right Hole, Left Hole. I can move forward.

image (resized).jpeg

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from manples:

Thanks Ryan, I favorited your post, very impressive and instructive!
I got some help on Facebook from Nick Destefano who kindly took a picture of his Time Zone, so the missing labels are Left Alley, Right Hole, Left Hole. I can move forward.

Glad someone snapped that pic for ya. Keep at it. ...slow and steady, as they say.

1 week later
#22 1 year ago

Hi guys,

Is there a Space Time owner nice enough to take a picture of his Game Adjustment Plugs please ? It should be located inside the cabinet, right side, next to the transformer wiring diagram.

As you can see mine is in quite a bad shape and I'd like to reprint one. Thanks guys )

Capture (resized).PNG

1 week later
#23 1 year ago

4Max passed this post on to me (he was the prior owner of my Space Time) -- and yes, as soon as I get home tonight, I'll take a picture of the label and send it off to you.

Good luck with your restoration project...

#24 1 year ago

Whatever you do don't use a flexstone to clean points, use a metal file or fiberglass pen to varnish them otherwise you will have to go back and clean them twice to remove all the non conductive silicate dust. You can use wd-40 to clean the brown steppers and it kinda lubes them a bit, spray on a rag.

14383351_10211299380504412_423078027_n.jpg

14341397_10211299380624415_1366023836_n.jpg

#25 1 year ago

oh and bypass any slam tilts that are always closed!!!

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from JDonovan:

4Max passed this post on to me (he was the prior owner of my Space Time) -- and yes, as soon as I get home tonight, I'll take a picture of the label and send it off to you.
Good luck with your restoration project...

Thanks a lot JDonovan ! (and thanks 4max

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

oh and bypass any slam tilts that are always closed!!!

Quoted from gmkalos:

oh and bypass any slam tilts that are always closed!!!

Ok I'll check these slam tilts. I was wondering what were those alone switches with a big weight everywhere

For now I'm strictly following the "before turning on the machine" procedure of http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#top

I've spent the last 4hours cleaning the score reels. None of them was moving back freely to the 0 position. Nothing too bad though. Unmounting these Bally reels is easy. I've deeply cleaned every plastic piece with 91% alcohol, I had to shorten (and so strenghten) each big spring so the coil plunger could go all the way back on the 0 position, some plungers had a little rust that i took away with fine sand paper. Just a little bit of grease on the circuit board where the 2 pins run in circle and that was it (I was very tempted to put a tiny amount of teflon grease on the 3 metal axles but as it's nylon that moves around I did not...)

on a side note it's incredible how Novus 2 can clean the score reel, in 5 seconds it's all white and shiny.

Still have to clean Player 1 reels, they are super dirty... I'll post some pictures soon.

#28 1 year ago

Few pictures of the progress. The cabinet was cleaned inside and outside. I've tried to remove all the dust that I could but it's sticky.

Thanks to Nick Destefano I was able to add the missing labels. I just need the one from JDonovan now

I've visually inspected all switches and was able to find 2 that needed adjustment. I mean I hope they were stuck in a closed position while obviously they had to be open with the motion, just like their close-by twins.

Also I've cleaned the stepper units in the cabinet and I had to roll up my sleeves a little bit for the Flash motor: it was so gummy that the rotors couldn't move. When I wanted to disassemble it I've found there are 4 copper cylindrical rivets that hold everything together. I had to drill them very carefully. Once opened I was able to clean everything in alcohol and I put some Teflon grease on the metal-metal moving parts. Maybe I shouldn't have (I think one rotor is made of brass, not sure maybe copper?). Anyway I've replaced the rivets with machine screws that have the exact same diameter so nothing moves. They are flat headed but the head was to big and did not flush the block - which is mandatory because of the metal plate that comes over after. So I had to grind the head of the screws and it came perfect at the end

Coin door inside (resized).PNG
Coin door outside (resized).PNG
inside (resized).PNG
Flash motor unit (resized).PNG

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

Whatever you do don't use a flexstone to clean points

Certainly true on SS machines, Gmkalos, but flexstone should be good for EM low voltage points (all except flipper buttons, EOS flipper coils, where metal file is required).

Anyway more to the point, before others ask, Manples how did you get that coin door looking so amazing?!

#30 1 year ago

Here's what I've used,
(the gallon of water is there to illustrate the sweat) )

Capture (resized).PNG

+ a Standard Coin Door Decal from PBR (BLY-M1895 $4.50) and a new lock.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from manples:

Thanks a lot JDonovan ! (and thanks 4max

Okay - I hope this is clear enough for you. If not, I'll certainly try for another angle....Let me know if there anything else I can get you.

IMG_3888 (resized).JPG

#32 1 year ago

That's perfect JDonovan, thank you so much !

#33 1 year ago

Ok Houston we have a problem

Stepper units are clean, switches are clean and adjusted, everything looks fine: cabinet, backbox, playfield.

Power ON then left flipper = GI illuminates, no flaws. Reset sequence runs perfectly, all reels go down to 0 and score motor stops.

Then I push the outhole, the tunnel starts (sequence from 1000 to 5000), I hit the "stop tunnel switch" and then collect, works fine. Kick-out holes works. 100 points and 1000 points work. Everything lookd fin but...

... as soon as I hit a 10 point target (or a bumper)... the 10 points relay gets stuck an the 10 points score reel goes "buzzzzzzzz"... and I have to turn the machine off.

Any idea of what happens there ? Of course I've been following the bible here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#stuck but my problem doesn't occur when I start a game, it's works until I use the 10 point.

Coil replacement ? (mesured Ohm value is ok though)

Thanks
Thomas

#34 1 year ago

Does this happen in just player one, or all players?

#35 1 year ago

Thanks Lee,
I've just checked and it doesn't happen with Player 2. The 10 point relay works well with Player 2.
But... when I hit a bumper skirt the 100 relay gets stuck. Weird.

So I have different symptoms between Player 1 and Player 2. I will do more tests with 3 and 4 and will post detailed results.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from manples:

Ok I'll check these slam tilts. I was wondering what were those alone switches with a big weight everywhere
For now I'm strictly following the "before turning on the machine" procedure of http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index1.htm#top
I've spent the last 4hours cleaning the score reels. None of them was moving back freely to the 0 position. Nothing too bad though. Unmounting these Bally reels is easy. I've deeply cleaned every plastic piece with 91% alcohol, I had to shorten (and so strenghten) each big spring so the coil plunger could go all the way back on the 0 position, some plungers had a little rust that i took away with fine sand paper. Just a little bit of grease on the circuit board where the 2 pins run in circle and that was it (I was very tempted to put a tiny amount of teflon grease on the 3 metal axles but as it's nylon that moves around I did not...)
on a side note it's incredible how Novus 2 can clean the score reel, in 5 seconds it's all white and shiny.
Still have to clean Player 1 reels, they are super dirty... I'll post some pictures soon.

Awesome job following the pinrepair guides, taking your time, and lubricating with a non flamable and non conductive lube like that teflon gel!! Your progress looks great!

It sounds like a couple of your score reels may be hanging up still? Do you know whats buzzing? Like if you hit 10 points and the 10 point score reel starts buzzing, can you help help the reel along a little gently to rotate and then see if it rotates and stops buzzing?

If so, maybe still something gunked up a little, or maybe a weak spring or coil? If it was totally taken apart at every point, cleaned, and lubed....then I would think springs.

Ohh, double check any of the contact points and point gaps of course.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

oh and bypass any slam tilts that are always closed!!!

Why would you do this???

#38 1 year ago

Thanks pacmanretro,

Actually every score reel was taken apart, cleaned and the spring strengthened. So when I manually activate the plunger, the wheel advance freely in a clear motion. So maybe I should recheck the gaps between the switches.

For sure I can't move the reel when the 10 points relay is stuck. The reel's coil blocks the plunger. And the biggest buzz comes from the 10 points relay.

Ok here are several new tests and issues:

- Power ON : OK. Just the transfo buzzing (little bit to loud IMO). Score motor doesn't move.
- Left Flipper : GI illuminates
- Start button :
* Player 1: all reels go down to 0
* Player 2: all reels go down to 0 except the 1000 points reel (#1 score reset and #2 score reset relays then go "clac-clac-clac" non-stop
* Player 3: all reels go down to 0
* Player 4: all reels go down to 0

So let's forget Player 2 for the moment and run some tests with just Player 1 (had to turn the machine OFF, move the Player 2 1000 points reel to 0 and restart the machine).

- Start button :
* Player 1: all reels go at 0
* activate the outhole : tunnel starts
* activate the stop tunnel roll-over switch : tunnel stops
* activate the collect tunnel roll-over switch :1000 point score reel moves to whatever score the tunnel shows

then the bizarre starts

* activate any 10 points switch: 10 point relay gets stuck (also includes the slingshots switches)
* activate the 500 points switch: 10 point relay gets stuck (weird)
* activate any of the 100 points target: all good, not stuck relay and 100 points reel moves accordingly
* activate any of the 1000 points roll-over switches: all good, not stuck relay and 1000 points reel moves accordingly

and now the bumper madness

* there are 4 bumpers, they seem to work 2-by-2 (I suppose, from from the lights).
* let's say the pairs are [bumper 1 / bumper 3] and [bumper 2 / bumper 4]
* if I activate the skirt of any of the pair whose light is turned ON : all good, 10 points reel moves accordingly
* if I activate the skirt of a pair that is not light ON: bam, 10 point relay gets stuck...
* if I manually open the 10 point relay that is stuck closed, the reel moves and the lights change to the other pair of bumpers

so bumpers with lights ON = everything works / bumpers with lights OFF = 10 points relay gets stuck

One more thing... one of the bumpers pair have a intermittent synchronized blinking.

Ok it's probably a multiple causes problem but if something here makes sense to one of you... a bug thanks in advance

#39 1 year ago

I'll do more thinking, but one thing real quick about pop bumpers..

Is it something like score different points when lit? Like 100 when lit 10 when not? Or something....might explain why lit set acts different...

#40 1 year ago

Pop bumpers with synchronized blinking may be a blinking bulb installed (forget number for blinking bulb)...regular bulbs are 44 or the lower power bulb 47 for less heat.

#41 1 year ago

Sorry it's not a blinking it's more like a flickering.

They are 44 bulbs and they flicker at the exact same time and frequency.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

I'll do more thinking, but one thing real quick about pop bumpers..
Is it something like score different points when lit? Like 100 when lit 10 when not? Or something....might explain why lit set acts different...

Man I will check that once I get back home, you're probably 100% right, if the bumper is lit it's supposed to score 100 (which works) and not 10.

Sorry, newbie in progress here

#43 1 year ago

I don't have this table ... YET anyways

my guess is the EoS switch on the P1-10pt score reel , the leaf in front of the plunger

the P2-1000pt reel , my guess would be the corresponding leaf switch on one of the reset relays.
I have alligator clipped a lead from my multi-meter to the coil & listened for a continuity tone while strumming other lead alongside the set of contacts. not a fool-proof method sometime you may get a tone while reading through another device ... the one with the lowest resistance should be the one to clean/adjust

#44 1 year ago

Pacmanretro is right. The lit bumpers are working because they score 100... The non-lit bumpers score 10 so with them I got a stuck 10 points relay, just like the other 10 points switches on the PF do.

So my problem for P1 is limited to the 10 points.

New discovery: with the machine turned OFF I manually added some score to the 10 point reel. Then Power ON, start... and the 10 points reel gets stuck with the #1 and #2 score resets going crazy...

chas10e Thanks. I've just tried to clean and adjust the EOS, same problem.

Also I've found a post that describes a problem very similar to mine and says this is probably an EOS problem, but I can't find the solution: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-tech-bally-freedom-10-point-relay-stuck-on

I'm now trying to understand what you meant with the continuity test I have a digital MM with sound continuity. Can you be more precise on what I should do to troubleshoot this EOS? Big thanks.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from manples:

Sorry it's not a blinking it's more like a flickering.
They are 44 bulbs and they flicker at the exact same time and frequency.

Not sure off hand, but maybe a bad connection to one of them. Either at power wire by bulb base. Or, possibly a dirty/worn/broken bad connection on plug(s) to playfield? Make sure all the male and female pins are clean on the main plugs and that non are real loose or have broken tabs on the female half (I forget off hand how bally has these set up).

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

Not sure off hand, but maybe a bad connection to one of them. Either at power wire by bulb base. Or, possibly a dirty/worn/broken bad connection on plug(s) to playfield? Make sure all the male and female pins are clean on the main plugs and that non are real loose or have broken tabs on the female half (I forget off hand how bally has these set up).

They probably share a power wire...so I'm wondering if power has bad connection at first one causing second to show same prob (whether at bulb socket, or at other end of wire feeding it power)

#47 1 year ago

Since it switches...may be a relay contact or wire too. Just thought of that

#48 1 year ago

the score reel tries to turn but can't ?

I hate when I grab my meter to discover I left it "on" & battery died ..... replaced battery and setup to snap a pic , .... battery in camera dead

your just trying to check continuity on the wire going from the reset relay to the one troublesome coil ...resistance should be close to zero .... if you see a higher resistance you may be reading through another coils windings -or- you reading through THAT coils windings (change terminals)

#49 1 year ago

chas10e as of now :

- with PF unplugged
- with machine powered OFF
- I manually add some score to every reels (everything but 0)

Power ON and Start: the reset sequence to 0 works for all players and all reels except for P1-10pt score reel

It looks like the reel tries to turn but can't, with the #1 and #2 score reset relay going "clac-clac-clac"...

- Turn the machine OFF
- manually moves the 10 point reel to 0
- Plug the PF
- Power ON, Start, everything is fine until I hit a 10 point switch or a 10 point bumper. NOTE that it only concerns P1. 10 points switches and bumpers work fine with P2-10 point reel.

So I've tried to use my digital Multi-meter and here's what I've found,

- I clipped a lead from my multi-meter to the #1 reset relay
- I tested the P1 coils contact on each reel with the other lead of my MM (see pictures below)

Guess what, I have a continuity tone for P1-10000, P1-1000, P1-100 but no tone for P1-10...

P1-10000, P1-1000, P1-100 read 028 on the MM and P1-10 reads 1.

So it's maybe not the EOS after all. I've checked it several time, it's clean and it opens and closes when it should with good contact.

You can also check this video :

Continuity test (resized).jpg

When I check the P1-10 point reel coil resistance, I get a 28 Ohms which is the same as the other reel coils. So it's maybe not a burnt coil.

Please don't tell me it's somewhere on the wiring )

#50 1 year ago

Sorry if you had already done this, but did you try ohming out (may be able to use the continuity beep) the EOS, Zero, and 9 Position switches while rotating the reel manually? To make sure they have low resistance when closed and that each is actually fully opening and closing at CORRECT times?

It was probably already talked about between you and others, I just wanted to make sure it was covered.

Obviously you can compair to another player to see they are opening/closing the same as well. But it may be good to check resistance just to make sure switches are making good clean low resistance contact.

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