(Topic ID: 316979)

1968 Williams DAFFIE endless add-a-balls

By hjh632

1 year ago


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DaffieSchematic.pdf (PDF preview)

There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

When 'open gate when lit' and 'special when lit' are both on, 3,000 points should be scored and an add-a-ball added. The 5,000 point stand up, if down, should also pop up.

The previous owner's repairman had taped around the TOP TROUGH roll over switch so it could not make contact with the other switch blade; no points got scored, no add-a-ball.

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#2 1 year ago

When I removed the tape, had the gate open and special lit, it gave an add-a-ball and points, but continued to do so non-stop and kept trying to add balls even when 9 balls were reached. (By the way, the bottom trough roll over switch works as it should.

I can make the game stop adding extraneous extra balls and points by forcing the TROUGH RELAY open, or by moving the BLU-B wire switch out of contact on the trough relay. I can also make it stop by manually activating the reset relay.

I've just noticed if the gate is open but 'special' is NOT lit, closing the upper trough switch will pop up the 5,000 point drop target (as it should) but also starts endlessly adding extra balls and points. That must be a clue.

IPDB has the manual but not the schematic. I have a schematic but in poor shape. I'll include two snippets.

Maybe there's a score motor switch that should end the scoring and add-a-balls after one cycle, but my skills are not good enough to find it. I see where the trough relay holds itself on, but not what releases it.

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#3 1 year ago

The answer is not in either of those pics. Post the pic where 14 is listed on the side of the schematic.

#4 1 year ago

Hmmm. The last schematic pic is from the 14 area. Between the M-B 3A and the 3000 relay switch is “to W-G @ 23-C which came from the first schematic pic where the TROUGH RE hold switch continues to W-G @ 14 -D.

Not sure what to do now.

I could try to get my schematic scanned at Office Max and put a PDF of it on here.

#5 1 year ago

It’s a 44” schematic, May have to scan in 2 parts

#6 1 year ago

In your second photo of post #2, that m/b MOTOR 3A is part of the locking circuit for the Trough Relay. It should be on the 3rd cam, bottom of the stack with the W/G wire on it. Your schematic should show you which cam is the 3rd. Make sure that the closed side of that switch opens at some point when the score motor turns.

#7 1 year ago

Thanks for the response. I had seen the M/B Motor 3A and wondered about it. Then I got confused trying to track it down. In the first schematic photo below, the switch with the W-G is listed as the bottom (3A) switch.

On the second photo the W-G M/B is listed as the second (B) 3000 RE HOLD switch in the 3 stack. Those two schematic photos seem to be telling me different places for the switch. I'm not sure why the discrepancy and hesitant to proceed.

I've never worked on a score motor. Instead of pulling the whole motor board, can I undo the four screws holding the motor frame to the plywood and then rotate the motor to look at individual switches? Seems to be enough play in the wire harness to make that possible.

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#8 1 year ago

I think you found a mistake. Schematics are drawings of how the machine is connected electrically - not physically built. There's no correlation between the physical layout of a machine and how the schematic is drawn - it only shows you what is connected to what. But on score motor switch stacks, the convention is to label the switches alphabetically from the bottom up - A would be the lowest switch on the stack. It looks like either the schematic should be labeled 3B for that switch, or the drawing of the switches in your lower photo is wrong. I'm guessing they just put an "A" instead of a "B" on the switch in the upper photo.

The sure way to find out is to actually look at the stack on cam 3 and look for the only m/b switch. Look at the color of the wires to identify which switch you're looking for and then make sure that it opens and closes as it should.

I like that drawing in your lower photo of the actual physical layout of the switch stacks...it's a nice feature that Williams does. But everyone makes mistakes - except me, of course. I thought I had made a mistake once, but I was wrong.

#9 1 year ago

I agree with Paulace’s info on the schematic error labeling the switch as A.
The score motor switch chart helps with troubleshooting a lot, but the space was limited on what circuits are controlled by the switches and some were omitted.

#10 1 year ago

I'm having trouble seeing the wire colors on the score motor switches. Have not found the W-G yet, but I'm looking at the score motor still in the bottom of the cabinet which is not ideal. I've blocked a lower switch in the score motor 3 stack with paper and have gotten it to stop adding add-a-balls every score motor cycle, but the points constantly add on in five 1,000 point pulses.

I'll try again with blocking switches but I think I'm stuck.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

It’s a 44” schematic, May have to scan in 2 parts

These retail outlets will scan it in one part: Staples ($2), Fedex ($6), or Office Depot

#12 1 year ago

Thanks HowardR. Not the best scan but at least in one complete section.

Still frustrated with blocking score motor switches and not solving the problem. Maybe there's something else in the path that will be revealed with the whole schematic. Henry

DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf
#13 1 year ago

Uh oh. That doesn't seem to expand to full view and just comes up blank. I wonder if the file is too large.

#14 1 year ago

File is 4.67 mb. Too big?

#15 1 year ago
DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf
#16 1 year ago
DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf
#17 1 year ago
DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf
#18 1 year ago

I'm stuck. Tried all the different resolution choices.

#19 1 year ago

DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf

#20 1 year ago
DaffieSchematic.pdfDaffieSchematic.pdf
#21 1 year ago

Ok, it works at full readable size if up top of the post I click on "view topic image gallery" photos.

#22 1 year ago

If the score motor keeps running when this happens, one (or more) of these 5 relays/switches is keeping it running. Which one(s)?

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#23 1 year ago

Thank you Howard. Score motor definitely runs. I will check the switches tonight.

#24 1 year ago

The O-G to B switches are open on 5000 point relay, index E switch, reset and outhole relay.

The 3000 point relay is pulled in so contact is made at O-G to B. If I ease that switch apart the solenoid that pops up the drop target locks on. But also the constant scoring and addition of add-a-balls stops.

#25 1 year ago

Which of these 3 circuits is keeping the 3000 relay locked on?

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#26 1 year ago

Thanks Howard. Will check tomorrow.

Am I right in thinking the top one is improbable since all five switches would have to be erroneously closed?

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

Am I right in thinking the top one is improbable since all five switches would have to be erroneously closed?

Hard to say without knowing the game logic but if No. 1 - No. 5 aren't needed to get 3000 then you'd be right.

#28 1 year ago

This morning I tested information from post 25.

The 1-5 relays all reset as a unit as soon as the last one is tripped. So that doesn't seem to be a path.

When I have the gate open (or gate open AND special light on) and trigger the top trough switch, the score motor runs non-stop, and points (or points and add-a-balls) are added non-stop.

The W-Blu/W-B trough relay switch is closed when this happens. If I move the switches apart score motor stops and no more points/add-a balls.

The 3000 relay is also closed, at W-G/W-B switch. If the motor is running and points are being scored it stops if I manually open that switch.

I took the score motor loose from the bottom board so I could see the switch stacks better. The M/B at 3B (which is mislabeled 3A) seems to make and break properly. My son with younger eyes will be around today or tomorrow to help me confirm that.

If indeed the #3 stack motor switches are working properly, are there other suggestions on what to test? Thank you for all the help so far.
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#29 1 year ago

Is the trough relay pulled in when continuous scoring happens? Do any relays release when cam 3 drops it’s switch stack. Posting pics of the trough relay might help.

#30 1 year ago

Thanks to everyone for sticking with me. My son confirmed the # 3 score motor stack is working correctly. Top switch opens and closes properly, as does the next switch, then the make-break makes and breaks and the bottom (A) changes as it should. Still wondering though...that seems like such an apt solution.

Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Is the trough relay pulled in when continuous scoring happens? Do any relays release when cam 3 drops it’s switch stack. Posting pics of the trough relay might help.

Yes, both the trough relay and 3000 relay are pulled in during the extended scoring sessions. Neither release when cam 3 drops its switch stack.

I also checked #3 score motor stack to see if any lugs were touching. Nope.

I'm beginning to understand why the previous repairman taped the switch off and walked away!

The photo is the Trough Relay not activated.

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#31 1 year ago

Photo is trough relay locked on while scoring endless points.

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#32 1 year ago

If the Trough relay is locked on when this happens, what's the Top Trough switch doing at the time?

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#33 1 year ago

Thanks for digging further!

Top trough switch is definitely open.

I notice the points scored is all 1000s in a 1-2-3-4-5-pause-1-2-3-4-5-pause cadence. With the pause being the drop target pulsing to reset even though it hadn't dropped. Maybe that means something. But it's batches of 5,000, not 3,000.

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#34 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Trough relay is locked on when this happens, what's the Top Trough switch doing at the time?

Quoted from hjh632:

Top trough switch is definitely open.

Are you sure the Trough relay is locked on when this happens?

#35 1 year ago

Trough relay is locked on.

If I have the gate open and roll the ball over the upper trough switch, the switch closes for an instant and then opens. But the trough relay is then locked on scoring endless points.

I can get the trough relay to turn off (and endless points stop) by:
(1) Manually forcing the trough relay plate open, relaxing all the switches.
(2) Separating the BLU-B wire switch on the ball trough relay.
(3) Separating the W-G/W-B switch on the 3000 relay
(4) Manually activating the reset relay.

Very confusing. I thought the score motor 3 stack MB was going to solve it.

Thanks for sticking with me this long. Henry

#36 1 year ago

I'm going to carefully go through the manual's "A. C. Relays & Switches on Mechanism Panel" drawings and descriptions and see if there is a clue.

#37 1 year ago

I notice if, without the gate open or without the special when lit on at the gate, if I manually close the trough relay it will lock on and score cycles of 5000 points.

That is - at the game just turned on, no points scored, just manually activate the trough relay and it locks on and continues to score.

#38 1 year ago

The trough relay hold switch wire w-g is always powered instead of switching power from the 3 cam switch. Tracing the w-g wire from the switch, thru the harness, and thru jones plug if needed to find it’s actual starting location.

#39 1 year ago

Have you checked for proper operation of this Motor 3A switch? If the normally closed side of this make/break switch never opens or is somehow shorted that would explain exactly what you're seeing.

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#40 1 year ago

Thank you yet again Howard. I will try tomorrow. Not quite sure how to do what you propose so I will think about it and come up with something or a least develop questions on how I should proceed. I’m a bit out of my depth here.

I’m good at normal problems, like the 10s reel didn’t reset. So I compared to a good reel at 0, 1-8, 9 positions, then found a wire had come unsolderered. Generally I can figure out the problems when something doesn’t happen that should, but things happening that shouldn’t is a different problem solving skill.

I thank you for your patience.

#41 1 year ago

Quick question… your red arrow pointing to 3A is just saying “look here” and not a flow of electricity from above - correct?

#42 1 year ago

Can you post pics of the cam 3 switches in both the raised and lowered positions. And also a pic of the switches wire connections.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

Quick question… your red arrow pointing to 3A is just saying “look here” and not a flow of electricity from above - correct?

Yes

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#44 1 year ago

Time for a dumb question since I'm going to track down score motor switches and wires, a new and difficult thing thing for me since it is so crowded between the stacks and wires are faded.

On the image I drew of M/B motor switch 3A (which is really 3B mislabeled), I can see where the NC switch 'makes'. But what physically does the top part of that switch look like (my question mark pointing at it.)

It seems when the top NO switch becomes closed there is no wire there, no place for electricity to travel. Or is that the point - does it just represent that the switch blade clicks over to nothing, no continuing wire, just pokes out into the air and hence breaks the flow of electricity in the area? Odd concept, I hope I'm asking that right.

Motorswitch3A (resized).JPGMotorswitch3A (resized).JPG
#45 1 year ago

Remember this drawing at the bottom left of your schematic from Post #7? The switch will be the 2nd one up from the bottom of the stack. Physically, it will be 2 switches on top of one another. The 2 switches share a common center blade, which is why they are considered one switch, and that center blade should have a Yellow wire attached to it. When the score motor is at rest (home position - which is where they draw the schematic), the bottom contacts (between the W-O and Yellow wires) should be open. The top contacts, (between the W-G and Yellow wires) should be closed. This top switch is the one you're interested in as it keeps your Trough Relay (and the 3000 Relay) energized (it's part of the hold circuits for those relays).
If you rotate the score motor with your fingers (top of cam moves away from switches) and watch that top switch of the m/b, it should open at some point (when the follower that all the switches ride on drops into the dip on the cam).

But you may have a short somewhere other than at the switch contacts. Look at the back end of the switches, where all the wires attach to tabs, and make sure nothing back there is touching. Look at that side very closely! The smallest bit of metal can cause a short - a strand of steel wool fiber, a little splash of solder, etc. Use a bright light and magnifying glasses if you have them. But your circuit does act as if that upper switch between the W-G and Yellow wires is not opening.

The other side of that m/b switch between the Yellow and W-O wires (which appears unconnected on the schematic), goes to the Flipper Unit Trip coil that's somewhere near 12-G on your schematic. The motor switch is correctly identified as Motor 3B (not 3A) in that circuit.

daffie mb (resized).JPGdaffie mb (resized).JPG

By the way, if you want to understand hold circuit or lock-in circuit a bit better, Mark G has a nice write-up about them here:
https://www.funwithpinball.com/learn/animated-basic-circuits#LockIn

#46 1 year ago

Also, in case it confuses you, that same drawing of the Score Motor 3 switch stack isn't well-drawn. The 2nd spacer from the bottom should be drawn as (and should actually be) touching the spacer below it. The long blades of the switches that have the white plastic spacers attached all rest on each other, and ultimately rest on the follower at the bottom, which is riding along the edge of the cam. Those spacers force the long blades up when the follower is on the "high" edge of the cam (where it should be in home position / at rest), and then when the follower drops into the "dips" on the edge of the cam, the spacers drop too and all the switches should then change state.

It would be better drawn as below:

daffie mb 2 (resized).JPGdaffie mb 2 (resized).JPG

Between this and getting the A and B mixed up on the schematic for this switch, I think one of the Williams draftsmen was having a bad morning.... It happens.

#47 1 year ago

Score motor cam 3 switches. They look like they're doing what they're supposed to do.

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#48 1 year ago

Wire ends of switches cam 3, view from both sides of the stack. Harder to get a good camera angle. I didn't see any lugs touching or frayed wire strands bridging gaps.

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#49 1 year ago

My next step would be to unsolder the w-g wire from the switch lug and check if relays drop out to eliminate the possibility of a switch stack short. If the problem continues the short lies somewhere else.

#50 1 year ago

Will try unsoldering W-G if I can get in there - must be possible somehow.

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