1966 williams casanova shoot again, and again, and again...

(Topic ID: 217194)

1966 williams casanova shoot again, and again, and again...


By oilspot

9 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 12 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by rolf_martin_062
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 2 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

1526668452710-1448233197 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png

#1 9 months ago

My ratty old Casanova beater is almost all working. Down to a couple maddening problems now. The shoot again relay is driving me batty. I have it working in theory, relay locks on, trip arch switch and relay releases, but in practice it only releases once in a while. I'be adjusted the lock-on switch at the relay and the arch switch to hair-trigger, added a spring to the relay armature, and lightened the shooter rod spring. I am running out of hair to pull out

#2 9 months ago

Use an analog multimeter to make sure you are getting the pulse to the coils on the relay as they should be.

The important thing here is figuring out if your relay is failing or is simply not getting correct instruction from the machine to do its task.

Otaku

EDIT: This only applies if it's the two-coil kind. Is it one of those ones with only one coil that locks on via switches? Those are a bit more complicated. The switches on the relay only pertain to locking it on, shutting it off is moreso controlled by the score motor and other switches to disable power to the coil which also disables power to the "loop" circuit that is locking it on.

#3 9 months ago

These are what power and lock on this coil. They are the only things that would cause this problem besides a mechanical, non-electrical problem on the relay itself.

pasted_image (resized).png

#4 9 months ago

When the arch switch is tripped, it arcs visibly. Tripping it by hand works every time, but the ball whizzing by doesnt sdim to open the switch for an adequate time to permit the relay to release. Yet I can't slow the ball travel down enough with the shooter rod spring and still permit it to reach the top of the playfield. If the ball is rolled slowly through the switch it works. I'm thinking of lowering the voltage to the hold switch with a resistor and see if that helps.

#5 9 months ago

Lowering the voltage will just do reverse of what you are looking to do, it will give less power to the coil and make it struggle to hold on.

(EDIT: Read this second) You could upgrade the coil to something a little stronger so it really gets those leafs together and in adequate time so it makes contact for longer before it lets go. Remember if you go stronger that these coils that lock on are of a special designation that does burn up when locked on.

Also, have you cleaned the playfield switch and adjusted it? That's probably it! Remember, it's not only a switch but is the thing feeding the initial power to the coil. Dirt will limit the power, and the adjustment will affect how long it sends voltage to the coil. If it is just tapping it at far distance, it's probably only making contact at the exact apex of the ball rolling over that switch piece, which would explain a lot for your situation here. If you adjust it closer, it will make contact as soon as the ball touches it, and will not let off until the ball has not made contact with it.

#6 9 months ago

Hi oilspot
may I ask some questions ? - Your post-1 "Shoot-Again-Relay works in theory" - means " the Relay only pulls-in when You expect it to pull-in" ? It stays pulling - You then launch the given Extraball - it runs upwards in the shooter alley - "Your trip arch switch" - is it here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=460&picno=21763 the "entrance-door to the playfield - in the picture way up, to the right" ? --- You adjusted the Self-Hold-Switch on the Relay and the arch switch to "hair-trigger" - WHAT is Your "hair-trigger" ? The Self-Hold-Switch on the Relay is an Normally-Open-Switch - it should be adjusted "closing late - very late". The arch switch is an Normally-Closed-Switch - it should be adjusted "opening early - very early". Well, I belive You have done the adjustment like this. How about "residual magnetism" - sneak in - in-between core of the coil and the pulled-in armature-plate - sneak-in - put in-between a piece of thin cardboard - so "metal cannot touch metal" - any better ? Greetings Rolf

#7 9 months ago

The relay armature plate feels slightly magnetic when hand cycling the relay with power off. Addin 40 Ohm resistance to arch switch was ineffective. I'm going to try adding fish paper or cardboard between the coil core and armature and see if that buys me the additional nanosecond it needs. .and the hold switch is adjusted so it barely contacts, the playfield gate switch is adjusted so the slightest touch opens it.

#8 9 months ago
Quoted from oilspot:

The relay armature plate feels slightly magnetic when hand cycling the relay with power off. Addin 40 Ohm resistance to arch switch was ineffective. I'm going to try adding fish paper or cardboard between the coil core and armature and see if that buys me the additional nanosecond it needs. .and the hold switch is adjusted so it barely contacts, the playfield gate switch is adjusted so the slightest touch opens it.

I use a piece of clear packing tape to do that, works quite well too.

#9 9 months ago

Hi oilspot
thanks for Your answer - You have adjusted the switches to "help as much as You can help".
I am curious - how many switches are on Your "Shoot-Again-Relay" ? In the schematics I have found "Normally-Open-Switch for the information-light(s)" - "Normally-Closed-Switch to open to suppress stepping on player / ball" - "Normally-Open-Switch used as 'Self-Hold-Switch - the one You have adjusted' " --- this sums up to three switches.

"Last try when nothing else helps": A "fast acting new / modern relay - see
https://gfinder.findernet.com/public/attachments/40/EN/S40EN.pdf : First page shows 40.52 Relay , also page-2 (I own several such color-orange 40.52 relays - various voltages) - we can buy AC-Voltage 6, 12, 24, 48, 60, 110, 120, 230, 240 --- on page-4 we see 40.52.8.024.0000 is the relay for 24VAC (50 and 60 Hertz) --- little problem: Such Relays only have TWO switches - two Make-and-Brake-Switches.
To make an replacement of Your "Shoot-Again-Relay" (three switches (?)): You'd have to mount two "Finder 40.52 relays of voltage 24AC" parallel. Finder is an Italian company --- in the USA You have http://www.ia.omron.com/products/category/relays/ . Maybe omron has new / modern / fast acting Relays. Greetings Rolf

#10 9 months ago

Index card inserted in relay made relay buzz loudly. So I disassembled the relay and cleaned everything, there was a bit of gunk in the contact area on the coil core. Put the armature plate on the vise and smote it a few with a finishing hammer, reassembled and readjusted. Worked five times in a row. Maybe it's fixed? Thanks to all here!

#11 9 months ago

Rolf, here's the relay, self hold switch set to just barely contact. 3 switches in all. 2 NO, and one NC. Guessing one is self hold, one is lights and NC switch is for ball counter.

1526668452710-1448233197 (resized).jpg

#12 9 months ago

Hi oilspot
thanks for the picture in post-11. Yes, the top (in the picture) switch, the Self-Hold-Switch You have adjusted "closing very late". If it was "residual magnetism" and You could hammer it out and everything works by now: Please mark topic "as solved". You may think of "un-doing" what You did in "trying to fix the problem" --- adjusting the switches "normal" - put back the old retaining spring (not so strong pulling).
I believe: Humming of an relay is caused: Retaining spring pulls strong - and the coil pulls (opposite direction) strong - they kind of fight on "who has possession of the armature (?)"- An magnetic field made by AC-Current has a little flutter in the strength (due to the sinus-wave / HERTZ) --- and so the armature is moved - flutters - acts like the membran on a loudspeaker - a hum of 60 Hertz is created. Greetings Rolf

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 19.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 19.95
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 10.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
$ 10.95
Apparel - Unisex
Pinball Wheezer
$ 10.00
$ 89.99
$ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
$ 109.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 28.75
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
€ 9.10
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 1,000.00
$ 7,499.99
Pinball Machine
Little Shop Of Games
$ 19.95
$ 39.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Hookedonpinball.com
$ 7,499.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 125.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
From: $ 99.99
Cabinet - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 39.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 14.95
Playfield - Other
Hookedonpinball.com

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside