(Topic ID: 126062)

1966 Bally bazaar game over at start of ball 5


By Whridlsoncestood

4 years ago



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#1 4 years ago

Picked this up last week. Took awhile to get it running but I have one pesky issue I can't sort out. Schematic is on ipdb.org but I can't trace this to a switch I think might be on the score motor.

Game plays great until you drain ball 4. It kicks out ball 5 and briefly shows ball in play 5 for a second and immediately goes to game over and lights a match number. If I manually activate ball trough kicker switch to drain ball 4 and then activate switch on exit of trough to advance to ball in play to 5 it seems to work fine but when done with a ball in quick succession as it does in game it goes to the game over state I mentioned 97% of the time. For some reason I'm having trouble locating problem switches associated with game over relay on schematic. Maybe it's because I stared at it for too long tracing all the other issues or Who knows

Also if I set game to ball 3 it also does same thing draining ball 2 and ending game as it shoots out ball 3.

Video of it happening at end of game. You'll here the ball shoot out for ball 5 but game goes dead.

-Jim

#3 4 years ago

After spending about two hours looking at the schematic for you game, the only fair explanation I can see is the previous owner has done a repair on the ball count unit.

When the machine resets, the ball count unit returns to position zero, than the ball is kicked out to the shooter lane, on the way it closes the runway SW and advance the ball count unit to position 1 (Ball one).

On modern Ems, when you set the 3 / 5 ball feature, its actually position 4 and 6 on the ball count unit.
I’m thinking that it is been set to position 3 and 5 on your machine. Look at the solder joints for NEW repairs, or if the fingers are out of whack.

This is only a guess and some food for thought.

#4 4 years ago

Ball count unit does appear to work properly. Made sure of alignment and cleaned all fingers/contacts. No new repairs or solder there. Somewhere in time coin door wiring was messed with in relation to coin mech switch and a weird play meter counter is installed but not functioning I believe.

On the end of ball 4 it does kick the ball out for ball 5. Hits runway switch and advances ball count unit to 5 (light very briefly illuminates) but then something in the same instant trips game over relay. I can't see what actually trips that relay in the schematic.
If I advance ball count unit manually to ball 5 after I start a game there is not a single issue. It's the combo of ball trough switch/kicker firing to immediate runway switch after ball 4. Score motor is the only thing operating during this process that I can tell.

#5 4 years ago

Also in the key a couple relays were mis labeled as to grid location. That had me baffled for awhile like I was a fool.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:

On the end of ball 4 it does kick the ball out for ball 5. Hits runway switch and advances ball count unit to 5 (light very briefly illuminates) but then something in the same instant trips game over relay. I can't see what actually trips that relay in the schematic.

The match relay.
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Once the Match RE is energised and the Scr Motor cycles, the Go RE energies.

#7 4 years ago

So my match relay is being activated prematurely....

#8 4 years ago

That's what I'm thinking...

#9 4 years ago

Check the swiper alignment on the ball count unit. A guy that has about
150 Bally's is telling me sometimes the Bakelite can get out of alignment. May have
to muscle it back to correct.

#10 4 years ago

I will double check the ball count when I get back from the Allentown show and try to figure out what triggers the match relay.

-Jim

#11 4 years ago

So the ball count unit is aligned, cleaned and operating properly. Match relay switches are all fine. Same with game over relay.

If I manually pull in March relay on balls 1-4 it doesn't go into game over. If I manually put game into ball 5 and pull match relay it trips game over relay. This all seems normal.

Only thing I see to to trip game over relay is outhole switch when ball count unit is on 5. Since outhole kicker is engaged for a slightly extended time I though it was shorting the outhole switch which would trip game over relay as the ball hits trough switch and advance ball count unit to 5. Fish paper was worn. Replaced fish paper and adjusted outhole switch but problem still persists.

Manually advancing ball count to 5 in game is never and issue. Only seems to happen when score motor is spinning and ball advances to 5. Happening a majority of the time when playing.

1 week later
#12 4 years ago

Digging around again. I can't find a thing out of alignment causing this. Switch 10D on score motor is the one for the match relay. All aligned well(N.C.) and clean. Switch 7B on motor pulses game over relay through match circuit. Also good alignment (N.O) and clean. I'm losing my mind here.....

#13 4 years ago

What about this SW in the circle below. If this SW is closed the Match RE will energise on ball 5 (assuming a 5 ball game)

Let’s look at the ball returning.

When you are playing a game the Tilt RE is energised, so the Tilt SW in the schematic below is closed. The ball drains closing the Outhole SW and energising the Ball Return RE. The Ball Return RE energised, closing the SW I have circled, if it is ball five on the ball count unit, the match RE will energise. If this SW is mis adjusted and closed then as soon as the ball count unit reaches ball five it will energise the Match RE, instead of when it drains. This will also be true for a three ball game.

On your machine, when the ball drains the Ball count does not advance till the Ball is sent out to the shooter lane. So on ball four, it drains and is sent out to the shooter lane, advancing the Ball count unit. If the SW is the circle is closed , Game over!!

Check that SW!!
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#14 4 years ago

Try putting a piece of paper on that contact above see if ball five will play.Should be Blue/Red and White wire colours.

#15 4 years ago

Awesome. Let me go check that now....

#16 4 years ago

Switch in question is on the right side of coil. Top level switch.

That normally open switch on the ball return relay with blue/red and white colors is the switch that energizes the relay to hold. If that doesn't hold the ball return coil doesn't have enough power to fire the ball fully into the shooter lane. Since that relay locks on for a short duration until it resets that switch is closed as ball passed to shooter Lane and advances ball count to 5. Don't see how this switch couldn't be closed as it advances to ball 5

#17 4 years ago

Coil is unheld with score motor switch 10D it looks like. From what I can tell coil holds until motor hits switch 10D

#18 4 years ago

Remember there 6 positions on the ball count unit, zero to 5. On reset the ball count unit is reset to position zero. And since the ball is in the out hole the Ball return RE (line 1) is energised and held by the SW in my red circle (Above schematic).

The ball kicker solenoid will fire when the SCR Motor gets to position 6 via the ball count unit (Line 1a) (The score motor has 8 positions 0 to 7). The ball should now be in the shooter lane, on its way, it closes the Runway SW and advance the ball count unit to position 1 (Ball one).

The SCR motor continues to position 7 and release the hold SW (via SCR Motor SW 10) for the Ball Return RE.

Now when the fourth ball drains the same process occurs as above. The ball count unit is advanced to position 5 when the ball is sent to the shooter lane. Now that the Ball count unit is in position 5 (Ball 5) the SW in the red circle is no long lined up with the Kicker solenoid, but the Match RE (Line 2).

When the ball drains the Match RE will energise and should energise the Game Over RE (Line 2a). But you are seeing the Match RE energising before the ball drains.

IF the SW in the above schematic is all good (Red circle), there is a SW on the score motor that may be an issue too. SW on Cam 7, wire colours Black/Red and Grey/Black.

I have spent even more time now looking at the timing of the score motor. When Ball 4 drains and is sent to the shooter lane, the Match RE may energise briefly till SCR Motor SW10 open (poistion 7 on the Scr Motor). If SCR Motor SW 7 is stuck closed. Game Over.

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#19 4 years ago

That looks like the switch 7B on the score motor which I checked before. Gapped open nicely. This is very bazaar.........

#20 4 years ago

Way I'm reading this is that previous switch you mentioned is still in question but there is no way that can't be closed when ball count advances to 5 as the score motor hasn't had time to disengage ball return relay when ball is hitting runway switch to advance BCU

#21 4 years ago

One question, has the machine always done this or is it new thing?

I'm out of ideas, but there are 2 SW's required to close to energise the GO RE, the problem must be there .
There is also the hold SW for the GO RE, but if it is an issue then the game would go to Game Over randomly.
I'm confident the issue is within the red lines of the above schematic.
I don't no if the switch is 7B, its not marked on the schematic like it would be on newer games.

Be aware sometime the wire colours are not correct, they will substitute if they are out of stock at the time of production.

Now you know why the game is called "Bazaar"!!!!

#22 4 years ago

It's done this since I picked it up a couple weeks ago. Last issue I have to sort out

#24 4 years ago

Nice SCR Motor Chart. how about putting a piece of card between the contact of 7B, see if you still have the issue, check the solder tabs too, make sure they are not touching.

Just watched your Vid on the Ball return RE again, the stiffener (Want for a better word) on the fixed side of the right most SW, in the vid appears to make contact with the moving side of that SW. That may make the SW work NC.

#25 4 years ago

Issue does go away since that switch never closes the game over relay can never trip. Score motor keeps spinning I believe. Tried that last week I think it was.

On the ball return relay I don't think it was making any false contact with the stiffener. I will double check later though. If it was making constant contact if would be engaged non stop I think.

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:

If it was making constant contact if would be engaged non stop I think

If a SW is poorly gapped or in this case the stiffener if nearly touching, it may only make contact when vibration is present.

#27 4 years ago

Just looked closer at the ball return relay. No stiffner on that switch or any on that relay.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:

No stiffner on that switch or any on that relay.

What can I see in the above video? Looks like the SW is making contact when the SW is open.

#29 4 years ago

Far left switch is NC. All other switches NO. Engage relay. Far left switch closes. Other 4 close including the far right.

#30 4 years ago

Think you might be seeing switch directly below it. Making it look like it's in between the top blades.

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