Hello all, I have a 1965 United Corral bowler that when I insert a dime it activates the coin relay but it does not activate the start relay. Should inserting a coin actually start the game for player 1? If so which I think it should because there is no start button what should activate the start relay? I have got some stuff working by manually starting games but can't get it to start on its own.Thanks for any help

Mopar, thanks for the response. I finally got to look at it. The switch on the game over relay needed to be adjusted and cleaned. I got it now where dropping dimes will start from a 1 player to a 6 player game. Now the issue I am having is it will not change from frame 1 to frame 2. It does this in 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 player game. It just will not go from frame 1 to frame 2. Any idea where i need to look? Thanks

The player reset relay is energizing. I looked at wires they look good. I cleaned the switches. Still no luck. Anything else I need to look at? Thanks

Thanks Mopar for the response. I was messing with it before I I got your response and noticed the Frame control step up unit was firing but not advancing like it should. The mechanism for the reset of that unit was gumed up really bad and was not moving to lock the wheel so it would not turn backward. So the arm that is suppose to catch and advance the unit would not click in place because the wheel would move backward when the arm tried to move down. I am doing some more testing on it now. Should I reply to this post if I have more trouble or start a new post? Thanks again

Mopar, I am having an issue all of a sudden that when I through the first puck it does as it should and the score motor advances. The problem is when I through the second puck it does not advance and score and go on to next frame like it should. On the second puck if I hit any of the rear switches it activates the rear rollover relay but does nothing else. Have any idea where and what I should look at? If i get a strike on the first puck the bell rings like it should and it moves on to next frame like it should. Thanks

Mopar, I was finally able to look at it again this morning after getting all of the family Christmas festivities done. Ok i just want to clarify what my unit was doing. I would through the first puck and it would do as it should. Then when I threw the second puck all that would happen was the rear rollover relay would pull in but nothing else. The second ball relay would not pull in. You where right the switch on the first ball relay quit making contact to let the second ball relay pull in . That is now fixed. Ok now my next problem. When i make strikes or spares it does not put those scores up. Say I make a strike in the first frame then in the second frame all I get is 3 the first ball and 0 the second ball. All it will put up is 3 instead of 16. Same thing if you get a spare the first frame and then get 3 the first puck the second frame and then 0 the second puck it gives you 3 points. It does not score anything until after the second puck in both cases. If you score normally and go from 9 to 10 it will put the 1 up there in the 10's slot. Is there something else that is suppose to make the 10's score reel turn on strikes and spares? It is not counting the strikes or spares. It does the same thing on all 6 players. I do not understand how it scores the strikes and spares. Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

Also I was just trying to adjust the 10 pin unit because the pin would pop back up pretty often on reset. Now after doing that when starting a game the pin reset motor just keeps going. It will not stop. I dont know if that is what caused it or something else. I have looked at the switches on the 10 pin and they look like the others. What is the pin reset motor looking for to shut off after a reset? Thanks

It was the run out switch on the pin reset. I stupidly was moving the arm back and forth by hand checking that pin 10 and it bent that switch all to heck. I had to take it completely off of the bracket to straighten it out. It is working right again now. Now on to the strike and spare scoring problem. Thanks

Mopar, I have checked and cleaned all of those switches and they all seem to be ok. Can you explain to me how the strikes and spares are suppose to score? Say in the first frame you get a strike. When should it score that strike. Can you explain to me how the scoring works. I know if you only get 1 to 9 pins it scores it after the 2nd puck which works right. What I need to understand is how and when the scores for strikes and spares should be put on score reel. Example: say you get a strike the first frame then on second frame you get 3 on first puck and 0 on the second puck. When should the strike be put on score reel? Then what is suppose to make the 3 from 2nd frame double and score 6? Maybe this would be easier on a spare. On the first frame you get a spare and 2nd frame first puck you get 3 second puck 0. When should it score the ten for the spare and the 3 for the spare plus next ball. The first frame score should be 13 then 3 more for second frame for a total of 16. It is like it does not recognize a strike or spare at all. When you get a strike or spare what all should happen? Like relays energizing ect? Sorry i am confused with this scoring stuff. Thanks

Yes it shows a strike or 2 strikes if you get them in a row on all 6 players. It also shows a spare if you get one on all 6 players. Of coarse I did this manually or I would be there all day. If you get 2 strikes in a row on 1st and 2nd frame and then get 3 pins on 3rd frame total. It will score 3 points after the 2nd shot of 3rd frame.

So what should happen in the back box when you get a strike? Thanks

I was talking about mechanically what should happen in the back box when I get a strike. The backglass shows a strike and a spare and the bell rings. Is there any relays that should pull in ect? When should the 10-90 relay energize? Thanks

I have cleaned and super lubed the whole player step up unit and it moves free. All wipers are free and spring right back. Thanks

The 10-90 relay does energize after the 1-9 relay is tapped 10 times.
If there's a spare (/) or double strike (XX) up when tossing a strike, the 10-90 Relay
should energize right after the bell rings. This does not happen. The problem is the 10-90 relay not energizing like you said from the beginning. I guess I will check all those switches again. I can not find an 11th frame relay. So i have to find where the break in the circuit is that is keeping the 10-90 relay from energizing on strikes and spares.

Mopar, I have rechecked all those switches. I can not find anything wrong. Is there a way I could use jumper wires to try and narrow it down. I think this is the only thing I have left and I cannot figure it out. Thanks

Mopar, I was not able to work on it today any. I do have a schematic for this game. I can read schematics some but I do not understand part of these for this game. Pinball schematics seem easier to read. Would that help if I got a scan of it? Thanks

Mopar, I found a post last night with someone with a 1963 Chicago Coin shuffle alley machine that was having the exact same issue as me as far as the strikes and spares not scoring. It ended up being the Player-Step-Up-Unit being dirty. Do you know would my 1965 United Player-Step-Up-Unit be about the same? Would it have a double wiper board? I am not where my machine is to be able to just look at it. After reading that I am wondering if I cleaned the Player-Step-Up-Unit good or all of it. Would you happen to have a pic of the type of Player-Step-Up-Unit my machine would have? Only if it's handy. Man I wish I could get to the machine today now. I do remember mine having one wheel with spring loaded contacts and one with like finger contacts. After thinking about it I am almost positive I did not clean the finger side and am not sure about the spring loaded wheel side. I know the unit moves free and the spring loaded contacts move freely. Can you explain to me what I need to do to clean this Player-Step-Up-Unit on mine correctly? I am going to do as you suggested to the wiper hubs also. I really do appreciate your help.

One thing i did want to mention on the above. His 10 points would not score after getting 9 pins and getting 1 more it would just go to 0. Cleaning the Player-Step-Up-Unit corrected both of his problems. So i don't know if the Player-Step-Up-Unit being dirty could create just my problem and not both.

Ok I was confused. I have been looking at this thing so much I got all turned around. The Player-Step-Up-Unit is in the back box not on the door. I did clean it hopefully good and all spring loaded contacts are clean and free moving. Maybe the centers are not clean enough. Here are pics of both sides. I got someone to take them for me. I probably wont be able to get back on it until Wednesday. Thanks

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Mopar, Ok i have cleaned the Player step up unit and the score unit again and greased. I took the wiper off both units and done as you said on the center hub at the pins or rivets. what ever they are I squeezed them good. I oiled the spring loaded pins on the player step up unit. I have checked all solder tabs on both units and they all look good. I cleaned all switches on the score unit also. The only thing that can work in this unit is regulation because someone took the game selector switch out of it at some time. Thats all i want to work. I just want to make sure the other componets for the other games would not have anything to do with strikes and spares scoring in the regulation game. Everything else on this machine works in regulation except the strikes and spares scoring. What should i do next? This thing is about to drive me crazy. Thanks

Figured it out finally. It was the game selection unit. I took it apart and cleaned it and greased it. Then i oiled the spring loaded pins. I looked at the schematics again and noticed the 10-90 relay goes right to the game selection unit. I guess the 10-90 relay is used in more than just regulation game. Now it works like it should. I will do more testing in the morning. Like all 6 players ect. Just to make sure. Mopar thank you for all your help. Thanks to all.

Mopar, Everything is working good now except I started a 1 player game and scored all strikes manually. The score ended up being 340 at the end. Then I started a 2 player game and manually made all strikes for both players. At the end of the games player 1 score was 330 and player 2 score was 340. It is like it is scoring extra points somehow. Would you have any idea what could cause this or what to look at? Thanks

Mopar, I done as you said and twisted the long blades to put more tension on the 10-90 relay. Then i adjusted the short blades to get the gap right. The relay is good and stiff now. It takes a lot for me to manually make the relay push in. After all of that it still randomly scores an extra 10 points. I had someone manually make strikes while I watched the 10-90 relay. It pulls in and out 3 times quickly like it should and then every once in a while it pulls in a 4th time at the end of the cycle. After the 3 times it pulls in reel quick the relay rests for a couple of seconds then pulls in again at the end of the cycle. Any ideas where i should look next? Thanks for the help.

Mopar, You are the man. That is exactly what it was. When i put the fingers back on the score motor they where to close and one of the fingers was hitting the screw/rivet on the board randomly and activating the 10-90 relay making it score 10 extra points randomly. I remember When i first put the fingers on they where not on far enough and the game did not score correctly at all. So i moved them in but to far. I have played about 20 games with everything working right. I really appreciate your help. I might be redoing another one soon hopefully. If i do I will start a new thread. Thanks again.