1965 United Corral bowler won't start game

(Topic ID: 230388)

1965 United Corral bowler won't start game


By pinballman3

55 days ago



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  • 43 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 days ago by Mopar
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    #1 55 days ago

    Hello all, I have a 1965 United Corral bowler that when I insert a dime it activates the coin relay but it does not activate the start relay. Should inserting a coin actually start the game for player 1? If so which I think it should because there is no start button what should activate the start relay? I have got some stuff working by manually starting games but can't get it to start on its own.Thanks for any help

    #2 54 days ago

    Okay, so yes, the Coin Relay should activate the Start Relay. I expect that maybe you already have
    cleaned and checked the contacts in the Coin Relay, and also, when the game is over and in the Game
    Over Relay is in the energized position, there's a set of contacts in the G.O. Relay that should be making
    to complete the circuit to the Start Relay when the Coin Relay is energized. You'll want to make sure the
    switches in the G.O. Relay are clean and adjusted properly. Also, before adjusting the switches, it's always
    a good idea to make sure the switch stack screws are snugged and tight. So a set of contacts in the Coin
    Relay (when the Coin Relay is energized), and in the G.O. (Game Over) Relay when the G.O. Relay is in
    the energized position, has to be made for the Start Relay to energize. Also, once the Frame Step Up Unit
    advances past the 1st frame, (so on frames 2 - 10), the Coin Relay should energize the Start Relay.
    I'm not sure on your machine if the Frame Step Up has a set of switches that make when it's on any other
    frame than the 1st, or if that circuitry goes through the Frame Unit's wiper board, but those are the places
    you'll want to check. Also, you'll want to make sure the wires on the Start Relay coil doesn't have a bad
    solder tab..

    #3 48 days ago

    Mopar, thanks for the response. I finally got to look at it. The switch on the game over relay needed to be adjusted and cleaned. I got it now where dropping dimes will start from a 1 player to a 6 player game. Now the issue I am having is it will not change from frame 1 to frame 2. It does this in 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 player game. It just will not go from frame 1 to frame 2. Any idea where i need to look? Thanks

    #4 48 days ago

    Okay, for the Frame Unit to step up, the "Player Reset Relay" needs to first energize shortly before the Frame
    Unit suppose to step up. You'll want to check if the Player Reset Relay is energizing. If it is, you'll want to inspect
    the contacts in that relay for cleaning and adjusting (or can inspect them anyway). If it's not energizing, you'll
    want to check both the "Coin" and "Player Step Up" Units and make sure the wiper boards are cleaned (and lubed)
    and that their wipers are in line and making good contact with their rivets. Also maybe give the wiring a quick look
    and make sure all looks okay (on the wiper board's solder tabs)..
    We'll first do that, and then see where we're at.. (T)

    1 week later
    #5 41 days ago

    The player reset relay is energizing. I looked at wires they look good. I cleaned the switches. Still no luck. Anything else I need to look at? Thanks

    #6 40 days ago

    I don't have the schematics for your exact machine, but there's a few other places to look..
    I believe two sets of closed contacts in the "Score Control Relay". A set of contacts that's
    NO (normally opened) that runs off the score motor's cam. The schematics that I'm looking
    at states that set is in the score motor's 8th position, and also that circuitry goes through the
    Score Motor's wiper board. So you'll want to make sure the Score Motor's wiper and wiper
    board are clean and making good contact with each other. Also, that circuitry goes through
    the "Extra Shots" Unit disc (wiper board) when the Extra Shots Unit is in the 0 position (all
    the way reset). So you'll want to make sure the Extra Shots wiper along with it's wiper board
    is clean and making good contact. Also, if your machine has a "Bonus Relay", you'll want to check
    the contacts in that relay. Let us know how you make out..
    BTW, The Frame Step Up coil looks okay, right? Also, its solder tabs look okay?

    #7 40 days ago

    Thanks Mopar for the response. I was messing with it before I I got your response and noticed the Frame control step up unit was firing but not advancing like it should. The mechanism for the reset of that unit was gumed up really bad and was not moving to lock the wheel so it would not turn backward. So the arm that is suppose to catch and advance the unit would not click in place because the wheel would move backward when the arm tried to move down. I am doing some more testing on it now. Should I reply to this post if I have more trouble or start a new post? Thanks again

    #8 40 days ago

    Your welcome. No problem..
    It'll be fine to stay with this post. I'll check back.
    Yes, it's always a good idea to go through and check all the Step-Up-Units.
    Along with the Strike/Spare Step Ups, there's quite a few. Just take your time
    and clean them up the best you can..
    Maybe not the Game Selector Step Up, but most others should be alike, so if you run in
    a problem such as how a spring was attached, you can always compare with another
    Step-Up-Unit..

    1 week later
    #9 31 days ago

    Mopar, I am having an issue all of a sudden that when I through the first puck it does as it should and the score motor advances. The problem is when I through the second puck it does not advance and score and go on to next frame like it should. On the second puck if I hit any of the rear switches it activates the rear rollover relay but does nothing else. Have any idea where and what I should look at? If i get a strike on the first puck the bell rings like it should and it moves on to next frame like it should. Thanks

    #10 31 days ago

    Okay, I would first check the switches in both the 1st and 2nd Shot Relays. When both are in the energized
    position, both have a set of switches that are closed. You'll want to clean and make sure the switches have
    good contact..

    #11 31 days ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    Okay, I would first check the switches in both the 1st and 2nd Shot Relays. When both are in the energized
    position, both have a set of switches that are closed. You'll want to clean and make sure the switches have
    good contact..

    Given there is a paucity of learned operational info available about ball bowlers I have found your posts in this thread extremely helpful and have 'filed' for future reference. Although I have found pinball schematics ok to navigate I cannot say the same for those for ball bowlers so your info is to me particularly helpful. Thks Mopar.

    #12 31 days ago
    Quoted from wayner:

    Although I have found pinball schematics ok to navigate I cannot say the same for those for ball bowlers so your info is to me particularly helpful. Thks Mopar.

    And Thank You for the thanks!
    Since the mid 90s, ball bowlers have interested me, so I got pretty good at them. I see that others help out with pinball,
    but not so much with ball bowlers, so when I notice a thread on bowlers, I try to help out..
    I have no idea how many 100s of hours I spent on restoring bowlers, and still enjoy bringing them back to life..
    Bowlers, Pinball, and EM Arcades has been a great Winter hobby..

    #13 26 days ago

    Mopar, I was finally able to look at it again this morning after getting all of the family Christmas festivities done. Ok i just want to clarify what my unit was doing. I would through the first puck and it would do as it should. Then when I threw the second puck all that would happen was the rear rollover relay would pull in but nothing else. The second ball relay would not pull in. You where right the switch on the first ball relay quit making contact to let the second ball relay pull in . That is now fixed. Ok now my next problem. When i make strikes or spares it does not put those scores up. Say I make a strike in the first frame then in the second frame all I get is 3 the first ball and 0 the second ball. All it will put up is 3 instead of 16. Same thing if you get a spare the first frame and then get 3 the first puck the second frame and then 0 the second puck it gives you 3 points. It does not score anything until after the second puck in both cases. If you score normally and go from 9 to 10 it will put the 1 up there in the 10's slot. Is there something else that is suppose to make the 10's score reel turn on strikes and spares? It is not counting the strikes or spares. It does the same thing on all 6 players. I do not understand how it scores the strikes and spares. Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

    #14 26 days ago

    Also I was just trying to adjust the 10 pin unit because the pin would pop back up pretty often on reset. Now after doing that when starting a game the pin reset motor just keeps going. It will not stop. I dont know if that is what caused it or something else. I have looked at the switches on the 10 pin and they look like the others. What is the pin reset motor looking for to shut off after a reset? Thanks

    #15 26 days ago

    Okay, on the pin reset motor, I believe your machine has a pin reset relay on the pin deck.
    You'll want to check that relay along with it's contacts. Also, the pin reset motor's cam has
    a run-out switch. You'll want to be sure that is opening after the motor completes its
    rotation..
    On the 10s not scoring. It must be that the 10-90 Score Relay isn't energizing for a strike
    or spare. You'll want to check the contacts in the 1-10 Relay (probably a make break), the
    switches in the 2nd Ball Relay, and also a set of switches that should be made after start
    up in the Game Over and Start Relays. Also, if your machine has an 11th Frame Relay, you'll
    want to check the switches in that relay..

    #16 26 days ago

    It was the run out switch on the pin reset. I stupidly was moving the arm back and forth by hand checking that pin 10 and it bent that switch all to heck. I had to take it completely off of the bracket to straighten it out. It is working right again now. Now on to the strike and spare scoring problem. Thanks

    #17 26 days ago

    Mopar, I have checked and cleaned all of those switches and they all seem to be ok. Can you explain to me how the strikes and spares are suppose to score? Say in the first frame you get a strike. When should it score that strike. Can you explain to me how the scoring works. I know if you only get 1 to 9 pins it scores it after the 2nd puck which works right. What I need to understand is how and when the scores for strikes and spares should be put on score reel. Example: say you get a strike the first frame then on second frame you get 3 on first puck and 0 on the second puck. When should the strike be put on score reel? Then what is suppose to make the 3 from 2nd frame double and score 6? Maybe this would be easier on a spare. On the first frame you get a spare and 2nd frame first puck you get 3 second puck 0. When should it score the ten for the spare and the 3 for the spare plus next ball. The first frame score should be 13 then 3 more for second frame for a total of 16. It is like it does not recognize a strike or spare at all. When you get a strike or spare what all should happen? Like relays energizing ect? Sorry i am confused with this scoring stuff. Thanks

    #18 25 days ago

    Okay, in the 1st frame, the 1st shot is a strike. It goes to the 2nd frame with no score showing.
    In the 2nd frame, your first shot is 3 pins, nothing should score yet (not with a strike up), 2nd shot
    you get 0 pins, so between the two shots in the 2nd frame, you got 3 pins. After the 2nd shot is
    when the strike counts 10, plus 3 pins, and then the score motor recycles (through the 1st
    Players Strike/Spare Step Up Unit), and counts another 3 pins, so going into the 3rd frame,
    your score is 16 with no marks showing. If in the 1st frame you pick 3 pins the 1st shot, and then
    pick the remaining 7 on the 2nd shot, a spare should show, with no score yet showing going into the
    frame. The 2nd frame, 1st shot, you pick 3 pins. The spare's 10 points chalks up, plus 3 points
    for the 3 pins picked, so 13 points show, with the 2nd shot yet to be thrown. On the 2nd
    shot, you pick the remaining 7 pins, the score should stay on 13 with a spare showing.
    If the 2nd shot you only pick 6 of the 7 remaining pins, those 6 should count up showing
    19 with no marks (spare or strike) showing going into the 3rd frame).
    If you make a strike or spare, does it show on the backglass?

    #19 25 days ago

    Yes it shows a strike or 2 strikes if you get them in a row on all 6 players. It also shows a spare if you get one on all 6 players. Of coarse I did this manually or I would be there all day. If you get 2 strikes in a row on 1st and 2nd frame and then get 3 pins on 3rd frame total. It will score 3 points after the 2nd shot of 3rd frame.

    #20 25 days ago

    So what should happen in the back box when you get a strike? Thanks

    #21 25 days ago

    With an open, no points with a strike. It should just show a strike (X).
    With a spare, a strike would score 20, then an X would stay up.
    With a strike showing, a strike would score 0 points, and show XX
    With 2 strikes showing, a strike would score 30 points, and keep XX up.
    Had you cleaned the Player Step Up Unit? The wipers in that unit I believe
    may be spring loaded. You'll want to make sure those spring loaded wipers
    move freely and are not sticky, and also that the wiper board is clean (and lubed).
    The scoring (including the strike and spare points), go through the Player Step
    Up Unit..

    #22 25 days ago

    I was talking about mechanically what should happen in the back box when I get a strike. The backglass shows a strike and a spare and the bell rings. Is there any relays that should pull in ect? When should the 10-90 relay energize? Thanks

    #23 25 days ago

    I have cleaned and super lubed the whole player step up unit and it moves free. All wipers are free and spring right back. Thanks

    #24 25 days ago

    If there's a spare (/) or double strike (XX) up when tossing a strike, the 10-90 Relay
    should energize right after the bell rings. When manually energizing the 1-9 score relay,
    the 10-90 score relay energizes after the 1-9 score relay has been tapped 10 times,
    right? So the 10 - 90 score relay's coil is okay. When the 10 - 90 relay energizes, that
    circuitry goes through the 1-10 relay (in the Relay Bank), the score motor's wiper board,
    and the Strike/Spare Step Up Units. If your machine has an 11th Frame Relay, it'll be going
    through a set of contacts there also..

    #25 25 days ago

    The 10-90 relay does energize after the 1-9 relay is tapped 10 times.
    If there's a spare (/) or double strike (XX) up when tossing a strike, the 10-90 Relay
    should energize right after the bell rings. This does not happen. The problem is the 10-90 relay not energizing like you said from the beginning. I guess I will check all those switches again. I can not find an 11th frame relay. So i have to find where the break in the circuit is that is keeping the 10-90 relay from energizing on strikes and spares.

    #26 25 days ago

    Mopar, I have rechecked all those switches. I can not find anything wrong. Is there a way I could use jumper wires to try and narrow it down. I think this is the only thing I have left and I cannot figure it out. Thanks

    #27 25 days ago

    Not having schematics for your exact machine, we'd probably have to do some guessing..
    Okay first, you have checked the contacts. You'll also want to check the solder tabs in the
    1-10 Relay and on the score motor's wiper board. And you're sure the score motor's wiper is making
    good contact with its wiper board?
    Also, I've seen where there was a bad connection in the wiper's hub (center) itself on both
    Step Ups and Score Motor wipers. I took the wiper off, then with a vice grips, I squeezed and
    compressed the wipers hub in 2 or 3 different spots, and that did the trick. Lets try that first..
    Note: The wiper's hub will have a couple doll like material through it. You'll want to squeeze there..

    #28 24 days ago

    Mopar, I was not able to work on it today any. I do have a schematic for this game. I can read schematics some but I do not understand part of these for this game. Pinball schematics seem easier to read. Would that help if I got a scan of it? Thanks

    #29 24 days ago

    Sure, if you'd like. We need the portion of the 10-90 Relay.
    With the Strike/Spare Step Ups being involved in that circuitry,
    there's a little bit there, but if you can someewhat make it out,
    you can begin jumping when your able to get back on it, but also
    I would check the solder joints and Player Step Up wiper as in
    the last post..
    If you send that portion of the schematic, I'll take a look also..

    #30 24 days ago

    Mopar, I found a post last night with someone with a 1963 Chicago Coin shuffle alley machine that was having the exact same issue as me as far as the strikes and spares not scoring. It ended up being the Player-Step-Up-Unit being dirty. Do you know would my 1965 United Player-Step-Up-Unit be about the same? Would it have a double wiper board? I am not where my machine is to be able to just look at it. After reading that I am wondering if I cleaned the Player-Step-Up-Unit good or all of it. Would you happen to have a pic of the type of Player-Step-Up-Unit my machine would have? Only if it's handy. Man I wish I could get to the machine today now. I do remember mine having one wheel with spring loaded contacts and one with like finger contacts. After thinking about it I am almost positive I did not clean the finger side and am not sure about the spring loaded wheel side. I know the unit moves free and the spring loaded contacts move freely. Can you explain to me what I need to do to clean this Player-Step-Up-Unit on mine correctly? I am going to do as you suggested to the wiper hubs also. I really do appreciate your help.

    #31 24 days ago

    One thing i did want to mention on the above. His 10 points would not score after getting 9 pins and getting 1 more it would just go to 0. Cleaning the Player-Step-Up-Unit corrected both of his problems. So i don't know if the Player-Step-Up-Unit being dirty could create just my problem and not both.

    #32 24 days ago

    Yes PB3, the P.S.U.U. (Player-Step-Up-Unit) is an important piece of that circuity.
    What I do is take the wiper off (7/16' wrench) and when in the total reset position,
    hold the gear on the backside by slipping a screwdriver through one of the holes in
    the gear, then take off the 1/4" nut. Be sure that the wiper is mark so it doesn't get
    put back on 180 degrees off. Also be careful that the spring loaded geared axle doesn't
    get pushed through or you'll have to rewind the spring. Not a big deal, but now, most
    likely the spring has the proper amount of tension..
    After the wiper is off, I put a solution (I use carb cleaner) on a piece of Scotch Brite
    and clean the wiper board's rivets. The I put a thin film of light grease (grease with teflon)
    on the wiper board. I also make certain that the spring loaded wipers are free and not
    sticky but putting a couple drops of light oil in each of the spring loaded wiper holes, then
    moving each wiper back and forth. Be careful when putting the wiper back on so that
    the spring loaded gear's axle doesn't push through (unwinding the spring)..
    Your machine's P.S.U.U. only has one wiper board. It's probably on the score reel board,
    but if not, it'll be on the backdoor..
    Cleaning the P.S.U.U. was brought up a few post ago..

    Quoted from Mopar:

    Had you cleaned the Player Step Up Unit? The wipers in that unit I believe
    may be spring loaded. You'll want to make sure those spring loaded wipers
    move freely and are not sticky, and also that the wiper board is clean (and lubed).
    The scoring (including the strike and spare points), go through the Player Step
    Up Unit..

    #33 23 days ago

    "Would you happen to have a pic of the type of Player-Step-Up-Unit my machine would have?"

    The pic of a unit on my last post of the 'show us your mech toys, bowlers etc' thread may perhaps be similar to your unit.

    #34 23 days ago

    Ok I was confused. I have been looking at this thing so much I got all turned around. The Player-Step-Up-Unit is in the back box not on the door. I did clean it hopefully good and all spring loaded contacts are clean and free moving. Maybe the centers are not clean enough. Here are pics of both sides. I got someone to take them for me. I probably wont be able to get back on it until Wednesday. Thanks

    567810978 (resized).jpg567810992 (resized).jpg
    #35 19 days ago

    Mopar, Ok i have cleaned the Player step up unit and the score unit again and greased. I took the wiper off both units and done as you said on the center hub at the pins or rivets. what ever they are I squeezed them good. I oiled the spring loaded pins on the player step up unit. I have checked all solder tabs on both units and they all look good. I cleaned all switches on the score unit also. The only thing that can work in this unit is regulation because someone took the game selector switch out of it at some time. Thats all i want to work. I just want to make sure the other componets for the other games would not have anything to do with strikes and spares scoring in the regulation game. Everything else on this machine works in regulation except the strikes and spares scoring. What should i do next? This thing is about to drive me crazy. Thanks

    #36 18 days ago

    Figured it out finally. It was the game selection unit. I took it apart and cleaned it and greased it. Then i oiled the spring loaded pins. I looked at the schematics again and noticed the 10-90 relay goes right to the game selection unit. I guess the 10-90 relay is used in more than just regulation game. Now it works like it should. I will do more testing in the morning. Like all 6 players ect. Just to make sure. Mopar thank you for all your help. Thanks to all.

    #37 18 days ago

    Okay, good deal. Glad you found it!
    When I go through a machine, I go through everything before I
    plug it in. It fixes many of the what would be problems before
    they become a problem..
    Yes, the 10-90 Relay gets used in all the games..

    #38 12 days ago

    Mopar, Everything is working good now except I started a 1 player game and scored all strikes manually. The score ended up being 340 at the end. Then I started a 2 player game and manually made all strikes for both players. At the end of the games player 1 score was 330 and player 2 score was 340. It is like it is scoring extra points somehow. Would you have any idea what could cause this or what to look at? Thanks

    #39 12 days ago

    Because it's doing it on multi-players, I'd first check the 10-90 Score Relay.
    It could be the contacts that energize the 10-90 score reels are too close, or
    also the Relay is pulling in to easily and slightly vibrates when energized/de-energized.
    You might want to twist the long blades in such a way so the Relay pulls in
    a little more stiffly. Once that is done, the small contacts may have to be
    readjusted for proper gap..

    #40 11 days ago

    Mopar, I done as you said and twisted the long blades to put more tension on the 10-90 relay. Then i adjusted the short blades to get the gap right. The relay is good and stiff now. It takes a lot for me to manually make the relay push in. After all of that it still randomly scores an extra 10 points. I had someone manually make strikes while I watched the 10-90 relay. It pulls in and out 3 times quickly like it should and then every once in a while it pulls in a 4th time at the end of the cycle. After the 3 times it pulls in reel quick the relay rests for a couple of seconds then pulls in again at the end of the cycle. Any ideas where i should look next? Thanks for the help.

    #41 11 days ago

    Not looking at the schematic, this one's a little tough..
    Does it seem to add the extra 10 points as the Bank is resetting?
    Also, with the machine off, if you carefully watch the wiper as you're
    slowly turning the score motor manually, does it look like maybe one of
    the wiper blades might be slightly touching a wiper board's rivet that
    it shouldn't be touching toward the end of the cycle?

    #42 8 days ago

    Mopar, You are the man. That is exactly what it was. When i put the fingers back on the score motor they where to close and one of the fingers was hitting the screw/rivet on the board randomly and activating the 10-90 relay making it score 10 extra points randomly. I remember When i first put the fingers on they where not on far enough and the game did not score correctly at all. So i moved them in but to far. I have played about 20 games with everything working right. I really appreciate your help. I might be redoing another one soon hopefully. If i do I will start a new thread. Thanks again.

    #43 6 days ago

    Good deal PBM3. Glad she's working..
    If you end up doing that other one, going through it
    first is a big plus. It takes time, but in the end, regularly
    it's time that is saves.. (T)

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