(Topic ID: 163305)

1965 bowl a strike- crazy at startup

By BarryMulvihill

3 years ago

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  • 34 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by rolf_martin_062
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider


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#4 3 years ago

Hi Barry
one of the problems is: It is a "True Add-A-Ball Pin" - from these years the ipdb has just the schema of palooka: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1743

Do You have a schema ? Could You play - and all of a sudden: The mystery ? Did You buy it "as it is now" ? What does / did the seller say ? Do You know the different units / relays ? Are there paper tags in Your pin telling "this is relay XY etc." ?

I show the bottom panel of my "Shangri La" --- just look at "E" - my "Game-Over-Relay" - an "Interlock-Type" of a Relay - it has TWO Coils mounted - they work one after the other - usually a long time in between. Both "states" the can be in are "stable positions". Most Relays are of Type "my letter D" - they are active as long as current flows and so the coil pulls.

Good, You wrote "somebody mounted an main power switch - so the pin is altered somewhat.

Your pin probably has TWO Interlock-Type (my letter "E") Relais: "Game-Over-Relay" and "Game-Relay". Toggle-off the pin - manually set one of these into "other state" then toggle-on. Try out all 4 combinations (in setting these two relays).

Usually there is a "Switch mounted on Game-Over-Relay" - and this Switch CUTS power to Flipper-Bats etc.

When You toggle-on: WATCH-OUT for "Relay pulls-in" Example: "Lock-Relay". Write about Your "findings" - greetings Rolf


#11 3 years ago

Hi Barry
in the ipdb-schema-Palooka I do find the "Tilt-Relay beeing also an Interlock-Type relay". BUT: Palooka DOES have an "GAME-OVER-Interlock-Type-RELAY". Please look everywhere - Cabinet, underneathside of playfield, Backbox for INTERLOCK-Relay "Game-Over-Relay". It does not make (much) sense to look-up in Palooka (having an Game-Over-Relay-INTERLOCK-Type) trying to figure out "problem on Bowl a Strike NOT having an Game-Over-INTERLOCK-Type-Relay" --- another pinsider must help OR You (can) buy a schema.

Your observation in post-7: The Tilt-Relay latches when You power-on (OK) --- and then ?
AAA: It stays latched - just the coil gets intermittently power and therefore pulls (again and again) - but the Tilt-Relay IS latched (What does the Tilt-Lite in the Backbox show ?).
BBB: First it latches but then (intermittently) trips and latches and trips and latches etc.

I look at JPG in post-9 --- (well, blades are "bent / wrinkled") - Top-Switch looks good (a Normally-Open Switch beeing open when the Relay is not pulling), also third switch looks good. I assume the bottom-Switch is also good (upper blade has contact to middle blade when relay is not pulling and (probably ?) the middle blade looses contact to upper blade and makes contact to lower blade AS THE RELAY IS PULLING-IN.
BUT the SECOND Switch looks faulty - to me: It should be OPEN when relay is not pulling.
What is "headboard" ? Is it in the Backbox ? The paper-tag says M-29-1000 --- in Palooka the "X-points-Relays (in the Backbox) are M-29-1100 relays (1100 !) - Palooka has M-29-1000 for: Tilt-Relay-TRIP, Game-Relay-TRIP, Game-Over-Relay-TRIP.

To post-8: You can power-on the pin SILENTLY - then You press the Start-Button and THEN the repetitive chugging begins --- toggle-off the pin and manually put some points on the Score-Reels - then toggle-on and start a game --- do the Score-Reels RESET ?

I still believe: You (must) have an Game-Over-Relay - either it is faulty (pulling or latched) or a blade is bent so the playfield-features get "power too early". (((And another fault: a "Playfield-Switch worth 50 points" is faulty-closed causing the Bell to sound)))

I "wait/ hope for" for "Game-Over-Relay found", Greetings Rolf

#13 3 years ago

Hi Barry
Want to ask here for a schema: http://www.pbresource.com/mansch.html#manaval ?

You have THREE relays sitting next to each other sitting near the Score-Reels --- http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=363&picno=27288 --- probably the 1 point / 10 point / 100 point Relays (the 1000-point Score reel is actuated by "pos-9-switch on 100-point Score-Reel AND the activated 100-point-RELAY). Question: Does ONE of the THREE relays intermittently fires when You have "repetitive chugging" ?

"Switches beeing closed in both states / Switches beeing open in both states": NOT in a "fully original pin***".
(Interlock-Relays later) A simple relay has a Normally-Open-Switch. I can see this by looking at the relay "non-pulling" and "(simulated by hand) pulling": A blade is moved - it moves towards another blade - it would like to get in contact. So I adjust the STATIONARY BLADE*** so the switch is securely open when relay is not pulling (and closed when relay is pulling).

A simple relay has a Normally-Closed-Switch. I can see this by looking at the relay "non-pulling" and "(simulated by hand) pulling": A blade is moved - it moves away from another blade - it would like to get away - loose contact. So I adjust the STATIONARY BLADE*** so the switch is securely closed when relay is not pulling (and open when relay is pulling).

A simple relay has a Make-and-Brake-Switch. I can see this by looking at the relay and count three blades ... I adjust one or both STATIONARY BLADE(S)*** so the switch does what it is supposed to do (a tricky adjustment).

A simple relay usually has not "Make-and-Make" Switches. This is a blade moved and making contact - both blades having contact are moved further so they make contact with/to a third blade --- in the end: ALL three blades have contact (I know this type of switch from Replay-Counters).

STATIONARY BLADE***: The "moved blade" is hooked-in into / onto the "Nylon-Ladder / Nylon-fence, pawling", so we adjust the other blade(s).

Interlock-Relay: We think away the trip-side and look at the rest as a normal, simple relay.

Barry, adjust the switches - write down "on what relay You have adjusted which switchblade(s)".

A general rule - On a "Normally-Open-Switch": At 50% of travel of moved blade: The two blades meet (and travel the other 50% having contact). (((You can do: At 30%, 40%, 50%)))
On a "Normally-Closed-Switch": The first 50% of travel the two blades travel together - having contact - then the moved blade travels alone. (((You can do: At50%, 60%, 70%)))
On a Make-and-Brake-Switch: I am happy when I can adjust it to "functioning" ...

"Precious Self-Cleaning of contacts": Look at the JPG - The "center-point of circular moving" of the two blades are "off-setted" - see the two curved lines ? When a relay does activate / de-activate: contact-points move sideways = Self-Cleaning.
Greetings Rolf


1 month later
#32 2 years ago

Hi Barry
how do I write it ? It is not "pleasing / likeable" guessing on an "Bowl a Strike, Nov 1965" by looking at the ipdb-schematics on a "Palooka, April 1964" - what if Willams made major changes in wiring ?

Rolf (german version of Ralph) is my first name, Martin is "middle initial", 062 is the area code within Switzerland - ifever You want to make an stationary phone call.

Your post-30 "module won't fire relays but big arm fires at turn-on" ? Not sure if I understand the questions - in the JPG (post-29) I see a "Relay-Bank / Reset-Bank". Outmost left sits the Game-Over-Relay. This fact tells me " This Relay-Bank is resetted by "big arm moving" ONCE at start-up - You then play through the balls and finally get to "Game-Over" - thats the time the "Game-Over-Relay in this Relay-Bank" TRIPS / its armature moves.
I see "1st, 2nd, 3rd Spare, 10Strike Relay(s)" - I would like to look-up in the schematics "when is such a relay tripped ? Through what wiring / switches does such a coil on these relays gets current ?" About fuses - I also would like to look-up in the "Bowl a Strike" schematics. Greetings Rolf

#34 2 years ago

Hi Barry
Yes, You understand correctly - this kind of "Relays mounted side by side in an (Relay) Bank": All Relays are resetted when the "big arm" is moved.

The rest of this post - I do not know - I am guessing.
Gottlieb liked to have an huge Relay-Bank - resetted ONCE at start-up. From the fact "Game-Over-Relay in Your pin is mounted in the Relay-Bank" I clued: The logic in Your pin is the same - resetting ONCE at Start-up.
But Williams also had Relay-Banks beeing resetted at start-up AND every time the pin stepped to next player / next ball, see the JPG - the Relay-Bank in my Shangri La (10 relays in this Relay-Bank).

IF (if) there is one switch on "1st Spare-Relay" and one switch on "2nd spare-Relay" and one switch on "3rd Spare-Relay" and one switch on "10 Strike-Relay" AND NONE of these switches tell the brain of the pin: Hey brain, I HAVE TRIPPED - next time You want to step to next ball YOU MUST reset the Relay-Bank - none of these relays has tripped - no need to reset a Relay-Bank that already / still is in state "resetted".

To look-up on questions like "when does this Relay-Bank reset ?" or "what makes these relays trip ?": We need the schematics. Greetings Rolf


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