1963 Williams Beat The Clock Repairs

(Topic ID: 160839)

1963 Williams Beat The Clock Repairs


By Wickerman2

2 years ago



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  • 134 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Wickerman2
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 134 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Wickerman2
Your post-45 "If all three of those (blades ?) are engaged ...", hmm, it is a Make-and-BRAKE-Switch. When the relay is activated -> middle blade starts moving -> middle-blade LOOSES CONTACT TO Outer-Blade-1 -> middle-blade moves on -> starts having contact with / to Outer-Blade-2. Greetings Rolf

it does this correctly, I was just commenting that I noticed if they don't break it actually resets score.

The reset relay pulsing the score reset just after startup if I manually tap it is more curious

#52 2 years ago

Hi Wickerman2 +
I allow myself a "wild" theory - I refer to JPG post-43 and post-36 (first JPG). Maybe (maybe) "succession of several well-defined steps" is broken / incomplete (?)

Maybe (maybe) what should happen is: The game before has ended normal - means: some points were given to the Score-Reel - means "Game-Relay in the Relay-Bank" has tripped / has fallen. You press the Replay-Button -> Coin-Relay can pull-in through "Switch on tripped Game-Relay" -> Coin-Relay pulls-in -> Relay-Bank resets -> Game-Relay is resetted / latched -> Coin-Relay stays pulling until SCM-4 opens and cuts "Self-Hold-Circuitry on Coin-Relay" -> Coin-Relay lets go.
Miraculously the Reset-Relay is still pulling -> and so by NOW the Score-Reset-Relay can pull-in (pulsed by Score-Motor)
ONE problem: I do not understand the schema - Sore-Motor-4 (4 !) opens the Self-Hold-Circuitry on Coin-Relay AND at the same time: on Reset-Relay ---ALSO by a Switch on Score-Motor-4 --- hmm, HOW shall that work (post-43, above and below "encircled-red") ?

And (maybe) the solution to my problem: a bit further below "encircled-Red" -> the "Position-Zero Switches on the Score-Drums" - if one of these switches is closed: "the opening of SCM-4" does not cut the Self-Hold-Circuitry on Reset-Relay".

And just below these Score-Reel-Switches I see "Switch on Clock-Relay" ... lets try cheating a bit->

Wickerman2 want to use a Jumper-Wire or a Screwdriver -> when Starting: Manipulate "Switch on Clock-Relay shall be closed - the Normally-Open-Switch having wire-color-30 soldered-on, having wire-24 soldered-on ? Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Coin-Relay shall let go --- but Reset-Relay shall still be pulling -> Score-Reset-Relay acts somewhat "delayed in time" (?)

#53 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

if one of these switches is closed:

I've checked that and they are in correct position

#54 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

when Starting: Manipulate "Switch on Clock-Relay shall be closed - the Normally-Open-Switch having wire-color-30 soldered-on, having wire-24 soldered-on ?

I think I found the one you are talking about and it seems to make the score motor rotate a revolution and if done while starting game it didn't have any affect that I could tell...score reels didn't reset.

#55 2 years ago

I believe the startup sequence should see the coin relay energize and the reset relay energize, and as the score motor turns this should cause the coin relay to drop out on the first rotation while pulsing the score reset relay.

jumper_(resized).png

To narrow down where the problem is you can use a long wire/jumper cable. Clip one end to the 30 (yellow? should say on your schematic) wire off the transformer and during the reset touch positions 1-6 in sequence. Where the score reset relay fails to fire is the culprit.

1 - wiring between reset relay switch and the score reset relay lug (wire color 19)
2 - reset relay switch contacts (wire colours 71 and 19)
3 - wiring between score motor switch and reset relay switch (wire colour 71)
4 - score motor switch (wire colours 72 and 71)
5 - wiring between coin relay make/break switch and score motor (wire colour 72)
6 - coin relay switch (wire colour 30 and 72)

#56 2 years ago

You may have a timing issue here. Try and watch the Reset relay and the Score Reset switch on the Score Motor as you start a game. Note that there is a Reset Relay switch in the path to the Score Reset Relay. That switch, and thus the Reset Relay, has to be made before the Score Motor makes the Score Reset switch. If the cams are worn, or the cam followers and/or switches are adjusted too close or too wide, it may be out of time.

I spent several days a couple weeks back tracking a scoring issue on my Gottlieb 2001. It was scoring 400 points instead of 300 for lit features. Turned out to be a switch on the score motor that was supposed to open the 100 point circuit after a switch on another cam pulsed 3 out of the 5 lobes on that cam. The switch was misadjusted and it opened one lobe too late, allowing another 100 points to ring up.

Timing issues are insidious

#57 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

To narrow down where the problem is you can use a long wire/jumper cable. Clip one end to the 30 (yellow? should say on your schematic) wire off the transformer and during the reset touch positions 1-6 in sequence. Where the score reset relay fails to fire is the culprit.
1 - wiring between reset relay switch and the score reset relay lug (wire color 19)
2 - reset relay switch contacts (wire colours 71 and 19)
3 - wiring between score motor switch and reset relay switch (wire colour 71)
4 - score motor switch (wire colours 72 and 71)
5 - wiring between coin relay make/break switch and score motor (wire colour 72)
6 - coin relay switch (wire colour 30 and 72)

Thanks for the breakdown.

1. OK
2. OK
3. "maybe" OK--wire colors appear to be wrong on schematic or orange appears yellowish
4. Not sure I understand what I'm doing on that one. Transformer to each blade or continuity of that switch.
5. I think not OK but again the wire colors are a little off
6. I think not OK there either

I will double check them again tomorrow with fresh eyes

#58 2 years ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

You may have a timing issue here. Try and watch the Reset relay and the Score Reset switch on the Score Motor as you start a game. Note that there is a Reset Relay switch in the path to the Score Reset Relay. That switch, and thus the Reset Relay, has to be made before the Score Motor makes the Score Reset switch. If the cams are worn, or the cam followers and/or switches are adjusted too close or too wide, it may be out of time.

I will try and look at that tomorrow...thanks. Maybe that would explain why I can tap the reset relay after the intial start sequence and THEN it resets the scores...?

#59 2 years ago

Keep it up, you will get there!

To rewind slightly, my jumper suggestion assumes that the following are true:

- during the reset sequence when the score motor is running...
-the coin relay is NOT energized: please verify that it de-energizes once the score motor starts running
-the reset relay is energized

When you are saying "OK/Maybe" were you actually using a jumper to fire the score reset relay?

If you walk through the test points 1-6 as I labelled them, as soon as the score reset relay does not fire that is your issue. Stop there.
You will need to hold the jumper long enough for the score motor to pulse the circuit.

If we first assume that the wiring is not the problem jumper it at 2, 4 and 6. As you mentioned, you are testing continuity of the switch at these points.

#60 2 years ago

SHOOT IT !!! Just shoot the damn thing, and put it out of our misery. This has gone on long enuf!!! LOL!!!
just kidding... I bet you have thot of that tho...haven't you???
Hang in there Bro!!! you will get it workin.
It's the tough ones that make the celebration mean more.
keep diggin around, There is something there thats not quite right.
loose solder joint, bent tab, piece of s#it caught somewhere. pinched wire.???
ahh!!! sooo many possibilities...
Happy Friday.

#61 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

To rewind slightly

Quoted from dr_nybble:

Clip one end to the 30 (yellow? should say on your schematic) wire off the transformer and during the reset touch positions 1-6 in sequence. Where the score reset relay fails to fire is the culprit.

Quoted from dr_nybble:

1 - wiring between reset relay switch and the score reset relay lug (wire color 19)

Let me make sure I'm doing this correct. For example on #1 are you saying jumper wire between those 2 or start at transformer lug and THEN those 2? So, 3 connections? And then hit the start button to initiate sequence.

It's tricky because the motor doesn't continue to run like usual when you have something out of whack. It makes a rotation doing the 5 pulses and then stops as if everything is fine (which it is I think except for score reset).

Thanks for the help.

#62 2 years ago
Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

Just shoot the damn thing

Right! If the machine could hear what has been said about it, it would flee for it's own safety that's for sure.

#63 2 years ago

Hmmmm, the score motor should keep running. What makes it run in the first place? More schematic study needed.

#64 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Hmmmm, the score motor should keep running. What makes it run in the first place? More schematic study needed.

Right, the reset acts like it's complete even though the score reels aren't reset. This may be a Williams thing. I found a reference from pinrepair but that was due to the score reels themselves--but the game will start without them resetting.

#65 2 years ago

I am having a hard time understanding what makes the score motor run during reset. On some schematics from the era I saw the reset relay directly in the path. On Heat Wave, the Target Reset Relay switch by proxy makes it run, it is directly energized by the reset relay. I can't tell from the schematic posted what runs it during reset but I think it must be the clock relay. Can anyone else explain the sequence?

#66 2 years ago

Hi Wickerman2
in post-39 You wrote "hopefully recruiting a top level help on this (now: last) weekend" - please tell us about.

I can look at the ipdb-schema "Four Roses" - similar, but came out one year earlyer - it is different, example "what does the Score-Motor makes running". Please show more of Your schema - I am interested in (well, everything) "what relays sit in the relay bank", Game-Relay, Game-Over-Relay (sitting in the relay bank or a single Interlock-Relay or a Relay with Self-Hold-Switch ?).
(((does the schema is incomplete - is there a "Switch on Reset-Relay making the Score-Motor run" - dr_nybble has asked "what keeps the Score-Motor running during Reset ?" - the only thing I see is "Game-Over-Relay" - maybe the Game-Over-Relay is (uncommon ?) actuated VERY late in the Reset-Cycle ?

(I like to do) I put the snippets (You showed in post-36,37,38) together - would be nice to see more ... Greetings Rolf

cBeat-the-Clock-pinside-Work3_(resized).jpg

#67 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"hopefully recruiting a top level help on this (now: last) weekend"

postponed until this coming weekend. I'll post some more of the schematic, hopefully will help. Spent this past weekend at the Rocky Mtn Pinball Show so not a lot accomplished on repairs. Thanks

#68 2 years ago

Schematic_001_(resized).JPG

#69 2 years ago

Schematic_010_(resized).JPG

#70 2 years ago

Schematic_009_(resized).JPG

#71 2 years ago

Schematic_008_(resized).JPG

#72 2 years ago

Schematic_007_(resized).JPG

#73 2 years ago

Schematic_006_(resized).JPG

#74 2 years ago

Schematic_005_(resized).JPG

#75 2 years ago

Schematic_004_(resized).JPG

#76 2 years ago

Schematic_003_(resized).JPG

#77 2 years ago

Schematic_002_(resized).JPG

#78 2 years ago

Schematic_013_(resized).JPG

Schematic_012_(resized).JPG

#79 2 years ago

And the lights...

Schematic_011_(resized).JPG

#80 2 years ago

Tell me if this sounds familiar...You start the game , the score motor runs, occasionally a drum unit that starts with numbers one thru four stop before reaching zero.

Refer to your schematic on post #70. The reset relay pulls in by the momentary closing the coin relay and locks on thru contacts on itself and the score motor. Notice about where you see the number 24 in the circuit...There you will see the line going down to the drum unit zero position switches and a clock unit switch. These are the circuits that will hold the reset relay on for additional score motor revolutions to completely reset the score. Without that hold to the reset relay, it will drop out before the reset sequence is complete.

Recheck your drum unit zero position switches to make sure they are closed at every position except zero. Also tug on the wires going to these switches as bad solder joints are common.

Kevin

#81 2 years ago

Now I see how the score motor runs. It is directly tied into a reset relay switch as seen in your post #71 of the schematic. In the schematic it is on wire 30 and then routes back up to the score motor section.

So one possibility is that this switch is not gapped properly or making good contact which is why the score motor stops turning. Wire colours for it should be Yellow (30) / Orange-Green (74)

#82 2 years ago

Thanks again. Will check it out.

#83 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

So one possibility is that this switch is not gapped properly or making good contact which is why the score motor stops turning. Wire colours for it should be Yellow (30) / Orange-Green (74)

That one is making good contact. If you hit it again after the initial start button/ball drop it activates score reel reset no problem. It pulls in fine, if I tap it after the initial no score reel startup start it pulses the score reset relay--it just doesn't do it the first time--or with the score motor turning or something.

So, to review, press start, drops the balls and playfield is active...score reels make zero attempt to reset. If I tap the reset relay a second time it will pulse the score reel reset relay. So it does seem like a timing sort of problem with the score I guess? If I hold in the reset relay while pressing start and force it to stay in the motor continues to run and resets reels.

#84 2 years ago

When you press start does the reset relay energize at all?

Another possibility is that the self-hold switch is not holding the reset relay energized. That would cause it to fire and immediately release.
Check reset relay switch with wire colours 24 and 51.

#85 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

When you press start does the reset relay energize at all?

It pulls in fine that's why I'm thinking it's a timing thing--score motor?

#86 2 years ago

You say it pulls in -- how long does it stay energized? When does it release?

#87 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

You say it pulls in -- how long does it stay energized? When does it release?

Score motor rotates 1/4 turn while reset pulls in/resets large relay bank/drops balls, then releases. Found a couple youtube videos of Beat the Clock and the reset is pretty quick in general.

#88 2 years ago

this tapping business you refer to , sounds like a broken wire on that relay coil.
take a toothpick, and try to move the coil wires where they attatch to the coils solder lugs, one of the wires may have broken, and is just laying there waiting for a tap to make contact...just a guess

#89 2 years ago
Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

tapping business

I meant gently engaging the relay without much force

#90 2 years ago

The reset relay should remain energized until the reset sequence is complete -- all score reels at zero.
If it is dropping out at the first rotation of the score motor that points to the self-hold switch not doing its job.

#91 2 years ago

Hi Wickerman2
Your post-83: " So, to review, press start, drops the balls and playfield is active...score reels make zero attempt to reset. If I tap the reset relay a second time it will pulse the score reel reset relay".

What means " If I tap the reset relay a second time" ? When did You tap it the first time ? --- Did the reset relay pull-in when Coin-Relay pulled-in ? Or what ? Greetings Rolf

#92 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Did the reset relay pull-in when Coin-Relay pulled-in ? Or what ? Greetings Rolf

Reset relay pulls in along with coin relay when you press start. The balls drop and game starts as if reset is complete--it in fact will play fine but the score reels just have not reset. If I engage the reset relay by hand again after the start it then pulses the score reel reset relay as it should have during start.

#93 2 years ago

If the reset energizes and drops before all the reels are reset that means the self-hold switch is not working. Please check that. The self-hold switch should keep the relay energized until all the conditions for reset are met (all score reels at zero etc.).

#94 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

The self-hold switch

It engages and has good contact/wipe...I know that much at least. The solder joints appear solid. What else can I do to test it?

#95 2 years ago

Initially the make/break on the coin relay energizes the reset relay.

Once the coin relay drops out it is the lower part of the schematic that keeps it energized.

There are a series of switches in parallel followed by the self-hold switch on the reset relay. The logic is:

- score motor switch closed
OR
- 1 point disc unit not 0
OR
- 10 point disc unit not 0
OR
- 100 point disc unit not 0
OR
- clock relay energized

AND relay self-hold switch closed

reset_relay_jump_(resized).PNG

I think it should be enough to manually engage the reset relay which should do the following:
-> cause the score motor to run
-> keep the relay energized until the switch at position 4 on the score motor opens causing it to drop out

The score motor switch is basically a check -- the motor keeps running and opens that switch on every revolution to "check" if all of the other reset conditions are done in which case the reset relay de-energizes and the reset sequence is complete.

So if you manually close the reset relay does it de-energize immediately, or is there a delay until the switch on the score motor opens

Alternatively you could run a jumper from the 24V to the side of the self-hold switch shown. If you close the relay it should then stay closed so long as the jumper was in place.

#96 2 years ago

Hi Wickerman2 +
one thing is the mystery (Reset-Relay) - another thing is You want to PLAY. Here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm I read a lot (excellent as http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair ) -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free -> down to "Add-A-Ball and Novelty Game Free Play" - they suggest to mount a Door-Bell-type of switch or a simple Leaf-Switch so pushing the "Coin Return Button" does temporary close this switch.

The Reset-Relay has a Self-Hold-Switch - usually the bottom-most switch. A short wire runs from one side of the coil to that bottom-most switch. The wires soldered-on onto that switch are color-51*** and color-24***. The Return-side-Lug on the transformer has two wires "color-30***" soldered-on (I believe 30 equals YELLOW).

Want to try (?): Clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "Coil on Reset-Relay, side wire-color-51, side-with-the-short-wire-running-to-bottom-most-switch-on-the-relay" - take the Jumper-Wire NEAR Transformer-Lug-30 - press the Credit-Button -> Balls roll into trough -> NOW touch with the Jumper-Wire at Transformer-Lug-30 -> the Reset-Relay should pull-in and the Score-Reel reset will be done.

Instead of "Jumper-Wire": Mount a permanent wiring with an Switch in the wiring and mount the switch somewhere (nice: at the "Coin Return Button").

I am interested in the "mystery" - actually TWO mysteries: AAA: Is there a "Switch on Reset-Relay" to let the Score-Motor run (not drawn in the schema, but pins I know have that switch) --- BBB: How comes "Zero-Position-Switches on Score-Reels NOT beeing in Zero-Position (therefore CLOSED) do NOT keep the Reset-Relay pulling after You pressed "Credit-Button" --- BUT when You afterwards MANUALLY actuate the Reset-Relay - miraculously these Zero-Pos-Switches NOW DO KEEP the Reset-Relay pulling ...
Should the "Switch on Clock-Relay" be closed after pushing the Credit-Button ?

To AAA: A strange thing: An "Normally-Open-Switch on Game-Over-Relay" and an "Normally-Closed-Switch on Tilt-Relay" do let the Score-Motor run - very strange. I had a look at schema-6VAC-Side (the lights) - again, very strange: Switches on these relays let the "Game-Over-Light" and the "Tilt-Light" shine (?)
Wickerman2, want to investigate on these two relays - and report (?)

In general:
I would like to know WHAT relays sit in the "Relay-Bank".
How many positions has the "Clock-Unit" ? I see drawn 12 positions - but I read in the schema: "Clock-Unit: 23 Roll-Over-Position", "Clock-Unit: 48th position actuates the Set-Up-Relay" (?)
Does the pin "kind of reset" the Clock-Unit at start-up - is it an "endlessly stepping forward unit" or has it two coils (one for reset) ?
When does the Set-Up-Relay actuate ?
HOW MANY SWITCHES ARE MOUNTED ON THE RESET-RELAY ? -> I then could look all over the schema to find the switches to learn about these switches ...
Has the Reset-Relay a Normally-Open-Switch with Wire-color-30, with wire-color-74 soldered-on ? (((to let the Score-Motor run)))

color-51*** and color-24*** etc.: want to show some more snippets of the schema ? - so I could complete the "putting together the snippets" ? Greetings Rolf

#97 2 years ago

Rolf see post #71 at the bottom. There is a make-break switch on the reset relay that runs the score motor.

#98 2 years ago

These items I know off the top of my head:

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

How many positions has the "Clock-Unit" ?

Clock unit has more than 12 positions and it appears as a continuous stepper. It does not reset and I watched youtubes of 2 other games and their clocks didn't reset. Only 1 coil so no reset would be confirmed by that I think.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

BUT when You afterwards MANUALLY actuate the Reset-Relay - miraculously these Zero-Pos-Switches NOW DO KEEP the Reset-Relay pulling ...
Should the "Switch on Clock-Relay" be closed after pushing the Credit-Button ?

Not sure but I have triple checked pretty much every relay, including clock and it pulls in with good contact/wipe as well.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Switches on these relays let the "Game-Over-Light" and the "Tilt-Light" shine (?)
Wickerman2, want to investigate on these two relays - and report (?)

Not sure, but the game will play and end with "game over" light coming on and I have tilted it as well and that works. It mostly plays as it should...the only other issue is that pop bumper lights aren't working as they should but I thought I'd check that last---wouldn't have anything to do with reset but who knows?

#99 2 years ago

Have you done the test I suggested in post #95? Manually engage the reset relay and see if it "sticks" until the score motor releases it, or whether it de-energizes immediately. That will determine whether the self-hold switch on the reset relay is working, which is critical for the reset phase to complete.

#100 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Have you done the test I suggested in post #95? Manually engage the reset relay and see if it "sticks" until the score motor releases it, or whether it de-energizes immediately. That will determine whether the self-hold switch on the reset relay is working, which is critical for the reset phase to complete.

It does not de-energize immediately. It stays energized for the 1/4 turn of the score motor and then releases...it's not a quick on/off if that helps.

The other odd thing is, if instead of pressing the start button, I just engage the reset relay it pulls in in the same manner as when you press start but it pulses score reel reset 5 times, so that if you do that manually twice the scores are reset...the pull in looks exactly the same as when you press start and the motor only rotates the same 1/4 turn each time you engage as when you press start.

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