Have had this Williams Valiant for 40 years. Everything worked for most of those years but now the 2nd Player will not work unless I manually hold the Game Relay up a little or lift the reset bar (which will lift the Game Relay) and hit the Cabinet reset button to add the 2nd player. If I don't lift the Game Relay and hit the reset button it just stays in 1 Player. Once I hold the relay up and hit the reset button the 2nd Player relay clicks down and you can play both Player 1 and Player 2, it all works as it should. But once the game is over and hit the reset again it will stay on Player 1 until I manually lift the Game Relay up to the middle position and hit the Reset button again to add the 2nd Player.

I have the schematic and have looked at many things but I'm stumped. Any ideas?

Thank you!

Checked reset bar and it appears to be working well, it moves freely and resets all the relays. After reset the Game Relay is energized and relay is pulled down. I think that is normal but not sure. With the power off I can reset the Game Relay and it stays up but when the Reset/New Game Button is pressed the Reset Relay and Game Relay are energized but when the Reset bar comes up the Game Relay stays energized and in the down position, all the others are up.

What is expected is that when the Reset/New Games button is pressed again it would enable Player 2 but it stays on Player 1 and Player 2 Relay does not pop down. If I manually hold the Game Relay up to the neutral position, it is still energized and buzzes when I push it up, the Reset/New Game Button can be pressed the Player 2 Relay pops down. If the Game Relay stays down and the Reset button is pressed everything resets and it is back to staying on Player 1 and each time the Reset button is pressed it just does a complete reset vs adding Player 2.

Tried cleaning all contacts on both Game Relay and 2nd Coin Relay but still have the same issue. Attached are pics of the schematic and relay bar. Note the Game Relay stays down so I assume that it is normally closed in that position after reset. If I hold the Game Relay up at neutral position and press the Replay button the 2nd Coin relay pulls down and works. If the Game Relay stays down and I hit the Replay button it just resets back to Player 1. The Game Relay solenoid is energized and stays that way. Each reset pushes it up but it comes back down after each reset. If I hold the bar up or pull the Game Relay up and hit the Replay button that is the only way the 2nd Coin Relay gets energized.

Tried cleaning all contacts on Start Trip Relay also and all the contacts on the motor wheel.

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36-2 is on the last schematic image with Valiant on the top. It is located about a quarter up from the bottom in the middle of the page and labeled Start Trip RE. Appears to be the circuit to reset the scoring wheels to zero.

The Game Relay is on the first schematic about a quarter way up on the right side. Looks to me like it is always energized as long as the tilt or game over switches are not on.

The 2nd Coin Relay is on the last schematic image in the upper right side. It is connected to the Game RE switch showing normally closed. If the Game RE switch is open it connects to Start Switch RE. I think that is where the problem is but I'm not sure how to troubleshoot. The circuit is also connected to the "Motor" switches so as it turns many things happen. Need to find out why pressing the Reset/New Game button always resets on every press vs not resetting and just adding the 2nd Player.

I checked the mechanical side of the Game Relay by turning off the power pulling up on the bar. The switch locked into position. So I think the mechanical side is OK.

In the down position the Game Relay powers the Start Trip Relay when the Reset/New Game button is pressed every time because the Game Relay is constantly energized in the down position. If I hold the Game Relay up, pulling against the energized relay coil, power goes to the 2nd Coin Relay and it trips down after pressing the Reset/New Game button. So the problem appears to be that the Game Relay never releases, as you noted, so it is always energized and cannot reset when the bar comes up.

Tried following the Game Relay schematic:

Game Relay-->Game Relay SW (NC)-->Outhole Index Relay (NO)-->Start Trip Relay (NC)
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|-->Tilt Latch Relay (NC)-->Start Trip Relay (NC)-->Game Over Relay (NC)

Not sure where the Game Relay SW and Outhole Index RE switches are physically. Assume the Game Relay SW is one of the contacts in the Game Relay assembly on the row of relays.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot why the Game Relay coil is constantly energized?

All the other relays except the Game Relay do exactly what you said. The electromagnet momentarily pulls the latch and the switch falls to lower position. If you then raise them they reset. The Game Relay electromagnet is on pulling the latch and does not go off so the switch stays in the down position. Need to figure out why the power to the Game Relay electromagnet is staying on and not momentary.

I could not figure out what the "CABINET THROUGH SW" is. The only switch that goes through the cabinet is the Reset/New Game button.

The flap at the end of the rail does not have a switch. The only switches on the outhole is the Outhole Index (which is tripped when the ball falls down) and then another switch Ball Eject? that opens a lever to release the ball for play. After 5 balls the game ends and the Ball Eject does not let the ball go until reset/new game.

Outhole Index Relay is not energized/tripped. Followed the 65 wire to the Outhole Index Relay Switch on the outhole assembly rail. All switches are open until the Outhole Index Relay Switch is pushed down, then the Outhole Index Relay trips/closes and opens again automatically. This all seems normal. The 28VAC does not go through the circuit until the Outhole Index Switch is tripped, then it releases/opens. So I still have the same problem. Just need to figure out where/why this Game Relay is on continuously. If the Outhole Index Relay is not the issue, the other direction is the Game Relay switch? I assume that relay is actually on the Game Relay which has all the contacts and latch assembly. It has a J (Jumper) from the Game Relay coil on the schematic.

I put a piece of paper between the black/white wire and white wire, the 2nd Player worked as it should, the relay coil was not energized. Checked the voltage on that Game Relay switch and it was 28VAC and stayed that way. As soon as I pulled the paper out the latch relay tripped to the down position.

So still need to figure out where this voltage is coming from. The black/white wire appears to be connected to the Tilt Latch Relay-->Start Trip Relay-->Game Over Relay, and they all are noted as closed, so it looks to me one of these three switches would need to be open to break the circuit but if any of these are open the game would end or restart. Any ideas on where to go next?

Looked closely at each of these switches and could not find anything obvious. All the contacts appear to be clean, adjusted, and working as intended along with no apparent shorts.

Spent quite a bit of time reviewing the schematic. Also trying to create a logic path;

Press Replay/Reset Button ----> Game resets to Player 1 with scores reset to all zeros.
Press Replay/Reset Button again ---> Should add Player 2 and not reset (But now it is resetting Player 1 only)

Normal Condition: Game Relay must be in UP position to add Player 2

Problem Condition: Game Relay Switch in UP position completes 28VAC circuit and powers latch to DOWN position so Player 2 cannot be added (Note: was tested with paper blocking switch and it adds Player 2)

Logically, need to understand how power to the Game Relay Switch UP Position is blocked when the Replay/Reset Button is pressed the second time. How logically the system determines this is a 2nd press?

The Game Relay Coil is only energized in the Up position. So the Game Relay is always in the Down position. Initially I thought the Coil was energized constantly because when I lifted the latch to the Up position it buzzed and popped back down to Down position. So that is the problem, the only way the 2nd Coin relay gets tripped is if the Game Relay is in the Up position but the Up position energizes Game Relay coil so it is stuck in the down position unless the 28VAC in the Up position can be interrupted. The Game Relay coil is not energized in the Down position.

What should happen is that when the New Game button is pressed the 2nd time the reset bar should go up and the Game Relay stay in the up position long enough so that when the Motor relays turn the 2nd Coin Relay would pop down and not reset like it is doing now because the Game Relay is in the Down position. The 28VAC needs to be interrupted on the Game Relay Up position on the 2nd New Game button press. That is why I was trying to figure out specifically where in the schematic logic how the 2nd New Game switch condition was enabled. Is it looking at the score being zeros on the 2nd New Game switch press to open the voltage circuit at the Game Relay Up position? Or is it that after the 1st reset a 2nd New Game button press opens the circuit to the Game Relay Up position? Or is it a timing thing with the Motor relays?

I just noted that as a possibility in my last post. I looked at all the contacts and they appear to be working. Not sure what else to check on the motor stack or how to check it other than seeing if the contacts look good and adjusted properly.

Yes, the first press raises the relay bank and the Game Relay trips along with the Start Trip Relay. The second press raises the relay bank and the same thing happens, so it stays on Player 1 and resets.

If I put a piece of paper between the Game Relay Up contacts before the second press the Reset Bar raises and the Game Relay stays Up, Start Trip Relay stays Up and the 2nd Coin Relay trips Down as it should and Player 2 works. The Game Relay Up contacts show 28VAC, when Reset Bar comes up the Game Relay Coil energizes and trips the latch and it goes back down. That is OK for the first press but the voltage needs to be blocked for the 2nd Press somehow.

I'm going to put a meter on the Game Relay Up contacts and see if the voltage changes at any point when the Motor Stack relays turn. Could it be a timing thing? Or a stepper somewhere that toggles the voltage on the Game Relay between presses?

Both springs appear to be intact. See new Pic.

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SUCCESS!!! It was the last contact on the TILT LATCH RELAY. Had the meter on the Game Relay and blocked that last contact and the voltage finally went away. Adjusted the contact and everything works now as it should. When I first looked at it I assumed that closed contact was normal but it should have been open between both contacts in that position.

YOU GUYS ROCK!! I've had this machine stuck in this condition for several years and never had time to troubleshoot. So being forced to be home gave me some time for this backburner project and the wife had me move the machine to clean so that gave me an excuse to get everything opened up for awhile.

Again I want to thank everyone who helped on this one. I thought I was a decent troubleshooter until this one kicked my butt. I fix cars, motorcycles, computers, almost anything I can usually figure out by using YouTube or searching the web, which is where I found this forum. I'll continue to monitor this forum and maybe I can help someone else. I like the Electromechanical machines because you can actually see and touch everything vs a black box processor or IC.
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Yes, just checked that, yeah that is correct, all the contacts are closed except the top one. If a tilt condition occurs the latch is pulled and the top contact is closed. You were spot on with blocking each contact through the circuit. So as soon as the machine was on it was sending 28VAC to the Game Relay Up position and even when reset it was in contact. Just had to bend it out a bit and all was good.

Thanks again for all your help. Just learning the lingo on these machines and finally understanding a bit more how they work. I've maintained it over the years, replacing the rubber, lights, and occasionally oiling the things that rotate and move. I bought it when I was about 12 years old back in the '70s offering a kid $30 bucks for it because he and his father could not get it to work. The only problem was a stuck relay. What type of oil or lube do you guys use on the moving and rotating parts? I've been using WD40 for years but if I don't use the machine I have to keep relubing which makes me think it is the wrong type of lube.

Just checked out the pinrepair site, lots to see and learn there. In big bold letters NEVER USE WD-40. Guess I've got some cleaning to do. It has worked for years but gums up over time. The pinrepair site noted how to clean up old grease. Thanks Again!