(Topic ID: 309451)

1958 United Playtime Big Ball Bowler HELP!

By arbrown14

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Mopar
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    #1 2 years ago

    Hello All,

    This is my first post to the forum after spending hours reading and re-reading old posts.

    I picked up a 1958 United Playtime about six weeks ago. This is my second bowler, and I know just enough to be dangerous. I’ve cleaned all the score reels and steppers and by my estimation, the coils look good and switches gapped properly. Regardless, I’m missing something and a few things are afoul.

    As a credit is added and the reels reset, the frame reel resets as it should and then jumps to frame 2 just as the game starts. So if I were to play a game, frame 1 behaves like frame 10 (extra shots frame light comes on, etc.)

    The machine will not score either. Pins go up when triggered by lane switches and that’s it.

    I do have the schematic, although I’m not too proficient at reading them yet.

    Would like to get it working as well as it looks!

    Hoping for some guidance. Any would be appreciated.

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    #2 2 years ago

    The bank relay identification strip is missing. It’s hard to give guidance if you don’t know what relay to look at.

    #3 2 years ago

    Here’s a pic from another angle.

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    #4 2 years ago

    Check if the frame step up unit’s subtract coil is firing on game reset. It sounds like the unit isn’t resetting because its going into extra shots right away like it’s staying on 10th frame.

    #5 2 years ago

    Wow! What a gorgeous looking machine. Looks brand new! Congrats.

    I am a novice at EMs, but I own a 1954 Williams Major League pitch & bat and have fixed a few things on it that may be an issue in yours.

    Cleaning those reels and steppers is step 1, so that's good.

    My issues were some loose wires at the Jones Plug connectors. They are at the very bottom in your 2nd picture. They're about 8 and 6 inches long respectfully in that pic.

    Now, MAKE SURE YOU UNPLUG YOUR MACHINE! Power off at the machine will still get you zapped. It did with mine anyway. So unplug it to be safe. Then, remove those plugs and carefully look at all the soldered connections and make sure there are no loose wires, cracked or cold solder joints. I suspect that your problem may be in there.

    Also, take some rubbing alcohol on some q-tips and clean all the connectors. After you clean those connectors, do not plug the machine in or power it on. You need to make sure that rubbing alcohol is 100% dry or you'll start smelling electrical burn. So clean those plug connections all up 1st, then start looking at the solder wire joints and connections.

    GL and keep us updated.

    #6 2 years ago

    Yes, it’s firing. In picture 1, the finger is at what I’d call position 6 (frame 7). I power off the game and restart. During restart the subtract coil fires and the finger moves to its start position (picture 2). Finally, at the same time the relay coil engages that bank of switches on the door, it jumps to position 1 (frame 2).

    Is it possible to post video on here?

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    #7 2 years ago

    You have to inspect all the switches in the frame unit step up coil circuit. If you can post a snippet of the circuit would help. Yes videos have been used here also.

    #9 2 years ago

    Here is entire schematic followed by close ups of where frame control is specifically.

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    #10 2 years ago

    per the schematic it looks like the frame control unit is supposed to step up once on reset.

    the frame drum unit should not step up tho. Is the frame control unit EOS switch stuck closed or misadjusted? Usually the EOS switch is mounted on the ratchet/gear side of the unit and is operated by the step-up arm ... switch closes when the step-up plunger pulls into the coil, and it needs to open before the wipers are pushed around far enough to touch the next rivet as the wipers are moving (wipers move when the step-up coil loses power).

    as a sanity check, if you reset the frame control unit, how many times can you manually step it up? The schem says 12, and reset is position 0.

    ideally, the rivets on the stepper contact plates should be clean/shiny. Dunno if it's just the camera angle, but it looks like you have buildup on the rivets which may or may not be a problem. Depends how conductive it is. A scotchbright pad/synthetic steel wool and solvent like isopropyl alcohol will remove the crud.

    #11 2 years ago

    Yes, I can manually step up the frame control unit 12 times. I removed the fingers and gave the rivets another good scrub and yes they did need it.

    The EOS switch looks good to me. Note on the plate says “Adjust to make at end of stroke with maximum rub of 1/16 of an inch”.

    I’ve attached pics of cleaner version of frame control and EOS switch.

    Also, I know per the schematic that the 5th and 6th Players Reset Relay is in the circuit of the frame drum unit. I can activate that switch and step the frame unit no further than frame 1.

    Included pic of that as well.

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    #12 2 years ago

    The maximum rub warning is how the end of stroke switch short blade is to be adjusted.
    Manually hold in the frame unit advance coil plunger and adjust the end of stroke switch short blade to just touch the long blade with a minimum of pressure. Once releasing the plunger, the end of stroke switch must open before the gear advances the fingers to position 1.

    #13 2 years ago

    All appears to be doing what you described.

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    #14 2 years ago

    Try this.
    Reset machine. Reset frame unit to zero position from position one. Finger push the end of stroke switch to connect switch. Does the frame reel advance? If it does the frame unit wiper fingers may be shorting the two sets of rivets causing a short. Possibly the wiper with the yellow paint.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    I know per the schematic that the 5th and 6th Players Reset Relay is in the circuit of the frame drum unit.

    In the pic of the 5th & 6th Player Reset Relay, the 3rd switch from the outside (3rd from the left)
    appears to be touching the 2nd (middle switch in that set). Adjust that 3rd switch so all 3 switches
    in that set has a gap like the other sets of the 3 switches have..

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    In the pic of the 5th & 6th Player Reset Relay, the 3rd switch from the outside (3rd from the left)
    appears to be touching the 2nd (middle switch in that set). Adjust that 3rd switch so all 3 switches
    in that set has a gap like the other sets of the 3 switches have..

    it does look like that, and the video seems to show the blade deflecting almost instantly as the armature moves.

    however, if it was stuck closed, the drum unit step-up coil would stick on after the zero switch on the drum unit closed ... which I assume is on frames 2-10?

    take a look where the green-red wire on the eos switch is going. Should be an arc of rivets on the contact plate and that'll tell you which wiper finger is involved.

    dave's test in post 14 should let you know if the issue is the eos or wiper contact bridging rivets. If neither, you're down to unlikely things like a solder drip bridging rivets on the wiring side of the contact plate or other odd short circuits.

    #17 2 years ago

    Once powered up, reset, and manually zeroed, if I push up on that switch nothing happens. Only when that switch is pushed further to contact that bar indicated by the screwdriver does the reel advance for what that’s worth.

    I’ve attached a couple other pics of the 5th and 6th Players Reset Relay to account for camera angle. At startup the last switch in that relay emits blue sparks initially as well. After reset I can push that switch to close and advance the reel as well. Brown wire. Schematic pic attached.

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    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    Once powered up, reset, and manually zeroed, if I push up on that switch nothing happens. Only when that switch is pushed further to contact that bar indicated by the screwdriver does the reel advance for what that’s worth.

    oops.

    the switches should not hit the metal rod. They should be lined up under the fiber disc. That insulates the switches from the unit frame (which is sometimes tied to the yellow wire as a way to connect yellow to wiper fingers thru the metal ratchet).

    loosen the switch stack and twist it to get the switches centered under the disc, then adjust the switch blades as needed to get the 1/16" max close amount.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from baldtwit:

    if it was stuck closed, the drum unit step-up coil would stick on after the zero switch on the drum unit closed

    Yup, and I couldn't tell the exact color wire of the center switch, but from the video, it seemed
    the Drum Unit stepped up when the Relay Bank energized making it appear vibration from the
    Relay Bank could have arch those switches./

    Quoted from baldtwit:

    the switches should not hit the metal rod.

    There it is. That Frame Unit is tied to the Common Yellow.

    #20 2 years ago

    Yes! Fiber disk it was! I would’ve never picked up on that. Many thanks to all who contributed.

    Unfortunately, that is not where the issues end.

    The 7,8, and 9 pin do not stay down when the pins are reset. Pin deck has been cleaned. Why just those 3 pins?

    If trying to bowl a game, the second shot is not recognized and therefore the game has no chance of progressing. I can activate the switch on the back door to move to frame 2, but no score is registered.

    Not sure which issue to tackle next…

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    #21 2 years ago

    go for the pin reset next since pins flipped up could make the game state inconsistent.

    first step is to determine if it's mechanical or electrical. I dunno if you can spin the reset motor cam with the power off. If you can, do that and make sure the pins latch down.

    look at the relays in the big trip bank (first pic, post #3) and see if the corresponding trip relay for a flipped up pin is tripped. If it is, try and manually reset that trip relay with the power on. If it doesn't let you latch the trip relay up, then you've got an electrical issue always powering the trip coil. Usual problem is a stuck closed switch.

    those trip relays appear to be the ones in the upper/right corner of the schem. When they trip, the pin relays around schem B11-13 power to release the pins to flip up.

    you can stick paper between switch contacts to prevent the relay coils from powering to help narrow things down, or just poke around with a voltmeter.

    #22 2 years ago

    I’m on it. Taking my wife out to dinner. As soon as I get to it, I’ll let you know. Appreciate it.

    #23 2 years ago

    btw, the pin action magic is the circuits controlling when the pin relays trip.

    e.g. the 9 relay trips only when the 5 or 6 pin relay trips. There are no lane switches controlling the 9 relay directly.

    since your issue is 3 adjacent pins, you have a decent chance the problem is mechanical - e.g. reset bar worn/loose on the 7 pin end. You could latch the pins by hand, but the bar won't do it reliably.

    if your 9 pin is flipping up electrically, then you'd need to look at switches on the 5 and 6 relays. The wire colors you can get from the schem (black and J ... tho you don't know what color the (j)umper wire may be from the schem. All the jumpers in the game could be the same color).

    note different switches on the 5 relay trigger the 8 and 9 relays, so you'd need multiple switch issues to get your symptoms if the problem is electrical.

    I didn't pick the 7 pin as an example since that's a lot more complicated

    #24 2 years ago

    Lucky you what a clean game...

    #25 2 years ago

    I can turn the cam with the power off. I snugged up the screws that house the reset bars and now only the 9 pin won’t engage. I believe the issue to be mechanical as I can put pressure on either copper bar and the 9 pin will engage.

    If I activate rollover switches, the pin switches are triggered, behave properly and the pins retract.

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    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    I believe the issue to be mechanical as I can put pressure on either copper bar and the 9 pin will engage.

    So manually, the 9 Pin Relay will latch, which suggest the Latch Plate is okay..
    I once had a ball bowler in a Moose Club, and at times a couple Pin Relays wouldn't latch.
    After testing and insuring it wasn't from magnetized coil (latching) plates, I did a little
    manual slow motion action with the Reset Bar, and it appear when it made contact with
    switches' plate, as it was lifting, it appeared to be moving it slightly sideways as if the
    bar and under plates (forgot exactly what they're called) were sticky..
    I cleaned the bar and the underside of the plates (with Scotch Brite and a solution) then
    lubed the bar with a film of Super Lube grease, and that seemed to do the trick. I now
    do that to all United style reset bars that has a slight side wards motion as it lifts..
    Not really saying that alone will cure the problem yours is having, but I found it's a
    plus to do that procedure. I also clean and slightly lube (as long as it's metal on metal) the
    bar's pivot joints. Also, I don't usually take the plunger out, but with it still installed, I like to
    clean the Reset Coil's plunger with Lemon Pledge..

    #27 2 years ago

    So I did some tinkering last night and I’m not sure what exactly happened. I’ve got to get back to it tonight. Here’s where I’m at:

    The video shows how the latch and plate were interacting.

    https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fbSYgopMHOPSIcTYWcD-k0yA

    I had lubricated per Mopar advice and still wasn’t getting anywhere. I then slightly bent up the housing that contains the coil to minimize the clearance and got the plate to latch consistently.

    When I went to test, the rollover switches for the back 4 pins (I remember the pin magic reference from @baldtwit) we’re doing nothing. I can’t even activate those pins from the pin relay bank on the back door.

    Does that make any sense? How does that happen?

    Feeling like I’m chasing my tail…

    #28 2 years ago

    looks like the only adjust is how far the armature plate moves away from the coil top. You can fiddle with that by bending the hooked piece above the armature plate to allow the plate to lift up higher.

    if the problem is the rod isn't rotating the locking cam far enough to engage the armature plate, see if there's something reducing the rod travel. Usually it would be something like the hole in the flat bar pulling the rod has elongated from wear or the rod has a groove worn into it.

    there's a chart on the schem around H20 that defines the lane rollover switches. Which ones were you closing?

    Mopar can correct if this is wrong, but I think the lane switches should cause the numbered trip relay(s) to trip, and one of the trip relay switches causes the pin relay to power and unlatch the pin so it flips up.

    the pin state should always correspond to the trip relay state. If you manually trip a numbered trip relay, the associated pin should flip up.

    also recall some numbered trip relays do not trip via lane rollovers ... they only trip when other numbered relays trip.

    so debugging is kinda two steps:

    1] what numbered relays trip when lane switches are activated

    2] when a numbered relay is tripped, does the corresponding pin relay power and flip up the pin.

    since you seem to be on [2] at the moment, I'd just manually trip a numbered relay and use a voltmeter to see what you have on the pin relay coil / switch.

    the metal bars that are connecting the plates together are part of the circuit. The entire metal plate and mechanism for each pin is connected to the black 50V power wire. If you stick a meter probe on the yellow common wire and poke each metal plate, you should see 50V.

    can't tell from the pic if the switch blade on the plate is a real two blade switch, or if it's just one blade. If one blade, then when the pin is down, the peg sticking out of the latch should be touching the switch blade. If there's two blades, then one is connected to the metal plate somehow and the peg needs to be closing the switch.

    in either case, the blade with the jumper wire then feeds the 50V onto the coil lug. The other coil wire is coming from a numbered trip relay switch.

    as soon as you figure it out yourself, the above will make more sense The good news is once you fettle one pin release relay circuit, all the rest work the same way.

    #29 2 years ago

    In watching your video, it doesn't look like the armature is returning to its up position completely either: perhaps the spring isn't providing enough tension or the ears and/or the travel distance hook are binding the armature plate: the plate should move very freely.

    I have a 1959 United shuffle alley, but these pin trip mechanism look identical to my machine. It is a two-blade, normally open contact stack, with the top blade having a solid brass wafer and thus making contact with ground through its mounting screws (I've attached a picture; it's not very good, but that top wafer is brass and not an insulator). When the pin is down (the armature is locked on the pin mechanism), the arm on the pin mechanism holds the contact switch closed, completing the ground circuit to the trip coil.
    pin trip contacts (resized).jpgpin trip contacts (resized).jpg

    #30 2 years ago

    I’ve got all the pins staying down at reset and releasing when triggered, so that is a step in the right direction. Switches were in need of re-adjustment and slightly altering the plate on the coil were the ticket.

    Rollover switches appear to be behaving properly although I still want to be sure everything is triggering as it should per the schematic before I go any further.

    Will update as things progress further. All the help and comments have been appreciated. Just trying to keep learning and become a little more self-sufficient.

    #31 2 years ago

    I’ve checked the rollover switches that control the pins and all switches, pin-related relays (with the exception of the 1-10 Relay, and pins are behaving the way they should.

    The ball gate is not behaving. It did at one point, but is not currently. I know in reading old posts throughout the forum that many of you remove the ball gate altogether so I’m not going to worry about that for now.

    The machine won’t score.

    Here’s what I know:

    The game will progress from frame to frame but will not score.

    I can activate the 1-9 Score Relay and the 10-90 Score Relay to make the score reels move.

    Regardless of what happens when I bowl a frame, there is no recognition of a strike or a spare (and consequently no bell).

    As referenced above, the 1-10 Relay is not tripping. Seems pretty important to me based on the number of times it shows up throughout the schematic, not to mention the large number of switches in that stack.

    I’m going to start with a closer inspection of the switches in that stack and go from there.

    Thoughts welcome…

    #32 2 years ago

    are the 1st shot and 2nd shot relays working? Both need to activate to turn on the score motor and make stuff happen.

    the 1-10 relay and bell need those relay switches closed to do something also.

    #33 2 years ago

    Yes. I roll the first ball, the 1st shot relay is activated followed by the score motor turning. Roll the second ball, the 2nd shot relay is activated, score motor turns, and we’re on to the next frame.

    #34 2 years ago

    looks like the score motor should only run when 1st shot relay activates if the strike/spare unit is stepped to a position that indicates you had a strike/spare on the previous frame.

    are your strike/spare units reset correctly?

    #35 2 years ago

    What you see in the video occurs only when I step the Strike/Spare unit up and then start a game. The unit resets correctly but the ones and tens score reels spin quickly and don’t properly reset.

    https://share.icloud.com/photos/08aeDxU6kbTUcYdL_UvgdsclA

    Only Player 1 does this. If I advance the other 5 players, they behave as they should.

    If I leave the Strike/Spare unit alone and start a game, the score reels don’t behave that way.

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    I’ve checked the rollover switches that control the pins and all switches, pin-related relays (with the exception of the 1-10 Relay, and pins are behaving the way they should.

    Quoted from arbrown14:

    I can activate the 1-9 Score Relay and the 10-90 Score Relay to make the score reels move.

    Quoted from arbrown14:

    The machine won’t score.

    Okay. When manually activating the Score Relays, the Score Reels energize, so we know the Score Relays
    aren't getting juice. Also the 1-10 doesn't energize when all Pin Relays are tripped. The 1-10 could be another
    issue also, but one thing all 3 have in common is a make/break in the Start Relay. When the Start Relay is latched
    (Reset), if the make side of that make/break isn't making good conyact, it'll prevent all 3 (Score and 1-10) Relays
    not to energize, so you'll want to carefully check the contacts (along with their solder tabs) in the Start Relay, and
    of course first make sure the switch stack screws are snugged. I'd also do the same with the 1-10 Relay..

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    If I leave the Strike/Spare unit alone and start a game, the score reels don’t behave that way.

    So if the 1st Player's Strike/Spare Step Up is already reset before starting
    a game, the Score Reels zero out properly?
    Anyways, I'd maybe first concentrate on that other issue..

    #38 2 years ago

    There is a make/break switch on the start relay and a make/break switch on the 1-10 relay that make up the 1-9 score relay, 1-10 relay, and chime coil switched return line.

    #39 2 years ago

    And just like that, she’s alive! There was one switch in the Start Relay stack that was not making properly. A little tweak, and bang!

    All six players are scoring properly, bells are ringing, switches tripping, all the sounds that we appreciate. I noticed a couple little things that might need to be addressed, and I’ll be investigating that shortly.

    For now, the scoring has been addressed and the game has been brought back to life. Many thanks to mopar, baldtwit, pinballdaveh, and all others who contributed.

    I’ll be in touch soon

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    And just like that, she’s alive!

    Nice! What we've all been waiting to hear..

    #41 2 years ago

    On the ball gate problem. Check the ball return push button make/break switch for a weak normally closed connection. The normally closed part of the circuit connects to the rear rollover switches, and they get their power thru a grey wire connected to a game over relay switch.
    The normally open connection on the make/break switch bypasses the rollovers and connects directly to the grey wire. The ball gate coil can also be pulsed during the game reset sequence thru a score motor disc circuit.

    #42 2 years ago

    I believe everything is working the correctly, which is pretty cool.

    I’m not noticing much difference between easy strike and normal strike. Anybody know the specifics of that setting aside from what the name implies?

    #43 2 years ago

    On the easy strike setting once the ball rolls over the 1st rollover for the 1 pin, extra bowling pins will trip allowing for a not so perfect strike zone shot. The machine does it so fast that it’s hard to tell the difference vs normal strike.

    1 week later
    #44 2 years ago

    The bowler has been working great. I replaced the metal feet with casters, not that I plan on moving it around all that much. I don’t feel that the area where the two lane sections meet is supported properly. I’m wondering if the hardware I was provided is original or if it was modified.

    What does the original hardware look like? Bolts, splicing member, etc. I have the original instructions as a reference. What is the function of the splicing member? To rest the lane section on? How about the diameter of the machine bolts? 1/2 inch?

    Have any of you made your own legs to add additional support to that other lane section? Seems like an easy fix with some oak and a router. I see some 16 footers with legs and others without.

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:

    Have any of you made your own legs to add additional support to that other lane section?

    The MBA bowler has a center extension, thus has 2 seams. I made additional legs and
    placed them dead center of the seams (where the sections meet). The United 14 ft. small
    ball bowlers have a (factory) center support underneath. On the Bally ABC Tournament bowler,
    I made the same..
    Years back, a Friend (that was heavy set) slipped and fell right on one of the MBA's seems, and
    cracked it. Once I fixed it, I made the additional legs to prevent it from happening again.
    Making and placing a couple legs under those seams would surely add insurance, or of course
    you could also make a center support underneath..

    #46 2 years ago

    There should be 4 metal rods that connect the 2 lane sections together. There are only 2 legs original for this game. There is no need to add or change from the original design by adding more stuff to it.

    #47 2 years ago

    I have 4 rods, I just don’t believe them to be original. What should their length and diameter be? Are they threaded? What is the purpose of the splicing member? Just to rest the Formica section on?

    There’s a slight bow in the lane section that I know shouldn’t be there based on other machines like mine I have seen.

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from arbrown14:What should their length and diameter be? Are they threaded?

    It's been a while since I restored a United big ball, but I do remember a couple long rods (long threaded
    bolts) going through the 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 (whatever it is) that holds the formica. They're long. Maybe 14" or 16",
    but when missing, I used threaded rod (a nut on each end). I believe they're the same diameter as the small
    ball bowlers. 3/8". Not sure if I'm keeping the Playtime once gone through and set up, but if I do, for little as it
    takes, I'll most likely build a center support like their small ball bowlers come factory with. Not a must, but if
    there's a weak spot, it's at that seam. I did that with the Bally Tournament bowler. With the MBA, I built legs
    to match the originals. It cracked at the seem, and I mean cracked. It was 100% unplayable. Made sure that
    won't happen again.. Here's the Bally center support and MBA added leg at the seam..

    IMG_0842 (resized).JPGIMG_0842 (resized).JPGIMG_0843 (resized).JPGIMG_0843 (resized).JPG

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