(Topic ID: 287376)

1952 Twenty Grand, lights up, has credits but will not start.

By JamMasterJesse

3 years ago


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  • 24 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by AndrewP
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#1 3 years ago

I just picked up a 1952 William's Twenty Grand. Upon assembling it and turning it on, pressing the start button would make a loud buzzing sound. The game would not start, and only has one ball. I got it to work for a bit but the bumpers would not bump. Now it simply will not do anything.

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from JamMasterJesse:

pressing the start button would make a loud buzzing sound.

Can you track it down? Also, do you have a good schematic scan you can post?

#3 3 years ago

Do you have credits on the game?

If you are new to EM pinball start reading http://pinrepair.com/em/

1 month later
#4 3 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Can you track it down? Also, do you have a good schematic scan you can post?

I havent been able to find a schematic. The buzzing seems to come from the credit wheel.

1 week later
#5 3 years ago

Are you able to take a photo of the credit wheel?

This will be just the first of your issues.

#6 3 years ago

If the buzzing is coming from the credit wheel, that would most likely be the solenoid that decreases the credit wheel value each time the credit button is pressed. Your credit wheel is probably gummed up and not spinning freely causing the solenoid to hold and the machine to not start. You should probably go through and check all stepper units to make sure they spin freely.

#7 3 years ago

What Scott said re the credit wheel. I refurb'ed a 20 grand a couple of years ago. Just checked and don't have a pic of the schematic. Can't remember if it had one. But if you have playfield wear, I do have Corel artwork of the green "clouds" with copy near the bottom of the playfield around the kick out holes. I printed them and applied to the pf rather than try to repaint the area and copy. PM if you need the art. Did take a ton of pics, including the score card. So also reach out if you need pic's of anything.

1 week later
#8 3 years ago

Sorry for not getting back to most everyone, so here's a bit more detail on why the game might not be working:
I discovered the buzzing noise is the start relay getting stuck on. The only way Ive found to get it unstuck is to turn the little motor underneath the playfield. The game works fine if I start the motor, however once all five balls have drained the flippers will not stop moving (dont know if that's supposed to happen). If you start another game the sound will reappear and the balls will not drain back into the ball launch rail. Additionally, the lights on the playfield and the score lights will not light up. They arent burnt out, as when I was testing underneath the playfield they came on for a few seconds. Lastly, the flippers do shock you if you press them. I think maybe the machine isnt getting enough clean power since the stock cord is still there with no third prod. Ive ordered one that does but I havent put it in the game yet.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from JamMasterJesse:

the flippers will not stop moving (dont know if that's supposed to happen)

Well, that part is normal. They didn't get Game Over relays (which stop that) in til a few years later.

#10 3 years ago

So, the machine is not completing the startup sequence. From my understanding, the sequence maybe gets as far as opening the ball release gate, but not far enough to get the playfield scoring. A couple suggestions:

I would not start chasing the power/plug, although installing a new, grounded plug is certainly advised and encouraged.

The startup sequence includes ten or so stages before a game can be ready to play (example: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start). Maybe you can identify which stage is where your problem begins.

The playfield lights (and switches) not getting power except when lifting to inspect sounds like an issue with a jones plug or the wiring harness that goes from the motor board up to the playfield. It is simple to clean it. Try unplugging and reseating a few times until you are satisfied it is getting reliable connectivity.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from AndrewP:

So, the machine is not completing the startup sequence. From my understanding, the sequence maybe gets as far as opening the ball release gate, but not far enough to get the playfield scoring. A couple suggestions:
I would not start chasing the power/plug, although installing a new, grounded plug is certainly advised and encouraged.
The startup sequence includes ten or so stages before a game can be ready to play (example: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start). Maybe you can identify which stage is where your problem begins.
The playfield lights (and switches) not getting power except when lifting to inspect sounds like an issue with a jones plug or the wiring harness that goes from the motor board up to the playfield. It is simple to clean it. Try unplugging and reseating a few times until you are satisfied it is getting reliable connectivity.

One follow up re Jones Plugs. Once in a great while, they look great, but a solder joint has come loose. If the connections all look clean it doesn't hurt to give each wire connecting to the plug on both male and female sides a little tug to make sure the connection is tight. With the game unplugged you can also do a continuity test, but that isn't as reliable.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from AndrewP:

The startup sequence includes ten or so stages before a game can be ready to play (example: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start). Maybe you can identify which stage is where your problem begins.

After reading it, it seems like it gets stuck on the 4th Williams stage, because what will happen is when the button is pressed, no balls will drain into the chute and it will make a buzzing noise (presumably from the reset relay being stuck on). But even then, if I manually turn the score wheel, the balls will not drain. It utilizes two different ball drains: the first being the lettered holes, and the second being the little ball collect beneath the flippers. The lettered holes will not drain, but sometimes the ball collect will open up. I will try your suggestion about cleaning some parts, and will update to see if it worked.

#13 3 years ago

Alright, so after cleaning out the jones cable, the lights actually lit up! Well, sorta:
MOST lights on the playfield and all the lights on the back box work, but some kinda fade in and out, for example when I hit a target it'll light up. When I flip the flippers, all the lights quickly flash (I havent seen any other woodrails that do this, so I'm assuming its an issue).
Scoring works fine, but when a ball rolls into a lettered hole, I believe something on the backbox should light up, and it doesnt.
I had about 7 credits in, so I ran all the credits down to zero, and now the lights wont appear, and we're back to where we started.
There are still some tiny spots with grime on the Jones cable, so I'll try and get it 100% off, but I dont know if that will make a huge difference.
Lastly, the autoflippers that are on both sides sometimes dont work while the lights are on. They work 100% when theyre not.
Ill try and get all the grime 100% off, but let me know if anything in my description might be something else causing issues.

#14 3 years ago

One last update, for some reason the motor underneath the playfield will not stop moving once a game has started. Everything seems to work okayish, but the motor is just seeming to account for points that havent been scored yet. Any ideas?

#15 3 years ago

I'd start at the beginning, read up about sticking stepper units for starters ( very likely suspects on an em) at www.pinrepair.com before you go any deeper. If you are trying to fix one problem without going through the machine step by step, you likely put more faults in it and go around in circles.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from JamMasterJesse:

Alright, so after cleaning out the jones cable, the lights actually lit up!

This is great news, and progress!

With a little cleaning and adjustment, it’ll be playable soon.

Let’s break out a couple more things from your post:

Lights fading and or unsteady is not uncommon and can be dirty sockets or loose connections. Leave this for now, prioritize getting it playable first.

The score motor is probably trying to reset one of the stepper units in the backbox. I think it’s time for you to post a photo of the backbox so it is easier to describe what you should touch next.

Edit: By the way, I am working through this same process myself with a 1954 Gottlieb.

#17 3 years ago

Alright, well after doing some playtesting the game just died. No lights, no reaction to pressing start, nothing. I think a fuse blew but since I'm not sure Ive attached a photo of the fuses and most of the backbox. The only sign of life is a slight humming noise, quieter than the one it would normally make.

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#18 3 years ago

I'd certainly take a hard look at those steppers, and any others in the machine, before you go any further. Those toasty coils, although not good to look at, might still be ok. Unsolder 1 wire and measure their resistance. If you have a schematic, look up their number and see if the other stepper coils, or any others come to that, have matching wrapper numbers and compare resistances. News ones from PBR will fix that if needed.

All those mechanisms look tired too, I'd certainly check each one for any sign of stiffness and fix accordingly. New spring kits are sold from PBR and really improve performance. And the coil plungers too, strip and clean those and replace the sleeves. Could be the humming noise you are hearing is either the hold relay, or, a stuck on coil, can you smell any burning?

Might be a good idea to invest in a couple of circuit breakers and solder to a spent fuse so you dont waste your money on new fuses. As said, I'd read up on the pinrepair guide.

#19 3 years ago

Photo 2 is labeled the 100,000 point unit. We want this one to reset to the starting position by activating the coil on the top right, releasing the gear to spin counter-clockwise until it hits that switch. These typically get gummed up so that the wheel does not spin freely, and also the spring loses tension to keep the switch closed. For now, you can reset this by hand by squeezing the top right solenoid and, if needed, turning the gear by hand. (These units get less than 30v, so it’s not lethal to handle them.)

Photo 5 shows the 10,000 point unit. Notice that it is designed to only move clockwise. So, in order to reset it to its ‘starting’ position, we need it to keep advancing around clockwise until it gets there. This, I believe, is what is causing the score motor to run. It is sending signals to this unit, but the unit never gets to its ‘zero’ position. It could be gummed up, it could be the coil isn’t firing, or it could be that the wipers on the inside of the unit are not making contact. (Or, it is working fine; you can observe it during a reset to determine.) If not working, I would experiment with moving it to various positions by hand until the score motor stops running.

If you have lost all power, I would inspect the 120v fuse that is bringing power into the machine. Also, the fuse holders themselves deteriorate over time, it is not unusual for the fuse to become loose or for a blade to crack off.

At this stage you don’t have to disassemble these units to troubleshoot, but you should make notes to come back later because you will have to clean and adjust them. That process can take a few hours. My suggestion is continue on, making a parts list for anything that needs purchasing.

Photo 3 is labeled the replay score unit. It should work similar to Photo 2. This is probably related to the gobble hole scoring (?).

Resolve these three, and you’re getting very close.

2 months later
#20 2 years ago

Alright, sorry for the long hiatus, but i have made some progress:
I replaced the fuses, which had killed the game, and now it "runs" fine, but heres the issue: the game will not reset again.
When you start a game, the scoring and playfield lights will turn on, but there will be a loud buzzing sound from the credit wheel. If you manually reset the 100,000 unit box, it will stop making the noise, but the 100,000 unit will keep running and adding points. It will stop eventually, but this problem will persist if you start another game.
I have no idea how to dismantle the units for cleaning, ideas?

#21 2 years ago

Stuck coin switch on the coin door? Might cause credit unit buzzing..

#22 2 years ago

Did you check the free movement of the steppers Andrew mentioned? If those are gummed up and not moving freely, really can screw up a game. I have had it happen many times in games that I buy that haven't had maintenance for a long time.

#23 2 years ago

Dismantling the unit for cleaning is actually pretty easy. There is one nut on the wiper arm, and it is faceted so the wiper is easy to reassemble in the correct position. You may have to wiggle the wiper arm quite a bit to get it off.
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From the other side, you can now remove the gear. The switches are in the way, so remove one of the two screws from the switch stack and pivot it away so you can pull the gear out. (You’ll also have to remove the tension spring.)
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Then clean the crud off, add a drop of oil, and reassemble in reverse order.
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The first time I tried this I thought it would be liquid death. It’s way less intimidating than you think it will be. Just take photos or videos in case you need them later.

#24 2 years ago

That being said, I don’t think that’s your immediate problem.

You can hit the start button.

Your start sequence begins.

The 100,000 unit does not reset.

You manually trip it.

The 100,000 unit spins to its reset position.

The start sequence eventually reaches the end.

Either the 100,000 unit solenoid isn’t working or one of the earlier sequences is not occurring (so you have to bypass it to manually trip the 100,000 unit). I am betting it is something really simple. According to online, once you press start the Start Relay should turn on.

1. In some cases, a switch there should trigger the 100,000 right away. Look at the switches in that relay to see if they are/will make contact.

2. In other cases, it’s a switch to the 1’s unit (ones, single points), and in turn that triggers the 100,000. (Sorry I’m not familiar with your machine.) In that case, check the ones unit resets, and then check the switches near its gear.

In either case, press start and then poke the switches with a stick and see what happens.

After you trip the 100,000 unit, it “keeps scoring” a few times. It should run one or two times, that would be normal. (There is a switch on the 100,000 that gets struck when the gear resets, and the gear needs to run until the switch re-opens.)

Happy hunting!

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