(Topic ID: 181688)

1951 United Deluxe 6 Player Shuffle Alley Reset Problem

By Burgertime

7 years ago


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  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by Nikrox2
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    #1 7 years ago

    I am new to em machines and just recently purchased a 1951 united deluxe 6 player shuffle alley. When I first moved it everything was working fine including the scoring except for player 2's score would always increase no matter which bowler 1-6 it was on. Everyone else would score fine and it would correctly step through the players and frames. This can be solved later but now the game does not reset. The bar that would activate all the switches would just come down and rest on the top of them and didn't seem to have enough power to push them down. It looks like the coil was busted and may have been replaced before. Part number 7-24f-965. My question is what size sleeve fits into this coil and onto the shaft? The shaft has a 5/8" diameter and most replacement coils for this part number do not come with a sleeve. Thanks for any help.

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    #2 7 years ago

    Action pinball has what seems to match the original coil with integrated brass sleeve:
    http://www.actionpinball.com/parts.php?item=7-24F-965#

    This shows a coil sleeve, yes?
    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/7-24F-965

    PBR would provide a suitable substitute and states "All of our coils come with sleeves, where applicable or unless noted"
    http://www.pbresource.com/coilunt.html

    Good luck. My first EM was also a 50's united shuffle alley.

    #3 7 years ago
    Quoted from jeffc:

    Action pinball has what seems to match the original coil with integrated brass sleeve:
    http://www.actionpinball.com/parts.php?item=7-24F-965#
    This shows a coil sleeve, yes?
    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/7-24F-965
    PBR would provide a suitable substitute and states "All of our coils come with sleeves, where applicable or unless noted"
    http://www.pbresource.com/coilunt.html
    Good luck. My first EM was also a 50's united shuffle alley.

    If you are going to need other EM parts or own EMs in the future, I'd establish a relationship with Steve Young at PBR now. Give him a call with your part number. And be prepared to write a check or have your bank issue an e-check of some sort.

    #4 7 years ago

    Burgertime

    Your problem is why I love these old games so much, it's 68 years old and can still proudly operate even with its parts wearing right down to the very end of life. In today's world of don't bother fixing it just replace it. They are a breath of fresh air.

    And please learn from my mistakes, If that coil is ready to go take a good look and inspect for any others in the same state that aren't quite as noticeable, before you order. Having to make multiple shipping orders for one game just because I didn't take the extra time the first time around has cost me time and money more than once.

    #5 7 years ago

    Thanks for the responses. I will order one up and see if that fixes it. I can force a game over and then it starts the reset sequence. The bar drops and then stays engaged and that coil heats up so hot that I cannot touch it.

    #6 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    The bar drops and then stays engaged and that coil heats up so hot that I cannot touch it.

    After you replace your new coil, you want to watch that it doesn't remain energized and heat up.
    Even the early 50s United Bank Reset Coil I'm pretty sure is 110V
    A switch off of the Score Motor's cam energizes that coil. It should make, and then break just before
    the end of the score motor's cycle..

    #7 7 years ago

    Wht Mopar said.
    don't let a coil stay on too long. or it will burn. in most cases.
    Also, when you find rthe switch, look it over close. burned coil =burned contacts.
    maybe not too bad, but look at it anyway.
    you got you a doosey to start off with.
    chk out pinrepair.com
    lotsa good info there.
    be prepaired to dig into that bowler...i am just saying.

    #8 7 years ago

    So I have the coil working properly to pull down the reset bank except it stays energized. I found the switch on the score motor cam that Mopar talked about. There is only one notch in the drum wheel that impacts that switch. When I manually turn it one notch it forces the switch open and the coil is not energized. It will stay non-energized until it cycles all the way back around. I plug it in and hit the reset button and it goes through the reset cycle until that wheel hits that notch closing the switch and energizes the coil and brings the bar down. The thing it thats where it stays. Checked for shorts and could not find any. Is there something else that should fire right after the wheel gets back around to move it one more place so that it is out of the notch and opens that switch again? Its hard to see in the picture because its the innermost disk. The one picture is the switch in the open position and the coil is not energized. That 90 degree angle bar is pushed out by the drum and that switch in the back.

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    #9 7 years ago

    There's a run-out switch that also runs off of the score motor's cam that shouldn't
    open until after the Bank Reset switch had closed and reopened. I see the labels are
    still attached to the score motor's bracket. I believe that run-out switch is in the
    1st position. Perhaps for some reason, it slightly breaks before it gets to the notch out
    on the cam. When the score motor stops and the Bank Reset Coil is remaining energize,
    turn the cam slowly and within a few degrees, a stack of switches will drop and the run-out
    switch is in that stack. I'm pretty sure it's the top switch in that stack.
    That switch may need a little more tension on its mating contact. If that stack drops at the
    same time the Bank Reset Coil switch makes, someone had to of put on a set of longer switches
    that resets the Bank reset Coil, but from your pic, it looks to be factory.. (T)

    #10 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    There's a run-out switch that also runs off of the score motor's cam that shouldn't
    open until after the Bank Reset switch had closed and reopened. I see the labels are
    still attached to the score motor's bracket. I believe that run-out switch is in the
    1st position. Perhaps for some reason, it slightly breaks before it gets to the notch out
    on the cam. When the score motor stops and the Bank Reset Coil is remaining energize,
    turn the cam slowly and within a few degrees, a stack of switches will drop and the run-out
    switch is in that stack. I'm pretty sure it's the top switch in that stack.
    That switch may need a little more tension on its mating contact. If that stack drops at the
    same time the Bank Reset Coil switch makes, someone had to of put on a set of longer switches
    that resets the Bank reset Coil, but from your pic, it looks to be factory.. (T)

    So you were right on with the run-out switch 0 and the notch. While the coil was energized I moved the cam just a hair and it rotated until the run-out fell in the notch. It all resets again and does not hang. Huge thank you. Now the unfortunate part is that the machine does not recognize the first and second shots so all I can score are strikes and spares. At least I know the bell works. So looking at the other switches on that same wheel is the switch that controls the 1st and second shot relay as in pic. The wheels are not loose or slipping and the motor looks in good shape so I don't know how it got out of whack.

    IMG_20170221_173805 (resized).jpgIMG_20170221_173805 (resized).jpg

    #11 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    so all I can score are strikes and spares.

    Yes, being a 1951, the machine only scores Strikes and Spares. 30 for a Strike, 20 for
    a Spare, and the number of pins made for an open. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this,
    unless I misunderstood what you were saying..
    Another little something I like to do is clean the top of the reset bar where it comes in contact
    with the coil's metal plates, and also I clean the bottom of the metal plates where they come
    in contact with the bar. I clean with carb choke cleaner on a paper towel both the bar and under
    the plates, then wipe dry and put a thin film of Remmington Gun Oil on the bar. Remmington Gun
    oil likes to stick around and doesn't gum up..
    Now when the bar strikes the plates, there'll be no grabbing since the bar not only lifts, but
    slides just a bit on the plates also..
    BTW, that bowler has 6" pins right? Those size pins were used on bowlers for only 2 or 3 years.. (T)

    #12 7 years ago

    Hey Burgertime.
    good progress. but I can see in the pics, the grease, gummed up parts, and black switch contacts.
    You got some more work to do...if you want it to work correctly.
    Start with that score motor. clean all the switches, and use a dremel tool, with a brass brush to clean the contacts.
    The solder tabs on the switches look bent, and maybe shorting? not sure, but go through EVERYTHING, and it will work.
    Don't cut corners here, they WILL come back to haunt you.
    It took me 3 times goin through my 51/56 frankinbowler to get it all workin right.
    But my situation was a bit more complicated than yours, I melded a 51 classic table, to a 56 deluxe head.
    good luck

    #13 7 years ago

    I have a very similar 1953 United "Chief" bowler with very similar problems when I got it.
    The trick is to clean and lube every moving part. The reset bracket that held the coil was broken, so I repaired that which helped with resets. You will need a burnishing file go go thru all of the contacts on the steppers and the puck contact switches. Steppers are critical that they snap to the neutral position when the reset coil is pulsed. I used special grease on the stepper contacts - made for stepper contact. The more you reduce friction, the better it will play. And all the moving arms, use synthetic grease and synthetic oil ONLY. Lithium will eventually harden like the old petroleum based grease. Synthetic will stay soft forever.

    After going thru everything twice, some three times, the machine works flawlessly now.

    #14 7 years ago

    I will start to go through it this weekend. The crazy thing is that it was completely working until that reset problem happened. Now that that is fixed it doesn't recognize the shots anymore. If I manually trip the first shot coil it advances the score motor, but tripping the second shot does nothing. The only way to advance it to the next frame is to knock all the pins down to get a strike.

    Mopar - the pins are 6"
    ramegoom - That inside looks almost identical to mine. I accidentally hit the button that flags your pic as inappropriate and don't know how to unmark it. Sorry.

    #15 7 years ago

    Fixed.

    #16 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    but tripping the second shot does nothing.

    Maybe taking another look at the 2nd Shot Relay's contacts you might spot a dirty one
    or one that's not making very well. Also you'll want to check the contacts on the Score Motor's
    cam when it's in the 2nd position..
    I feel going through a machine right from the get go is the way to go. I go through them all
    before I plug it in, but I understand that yours was working before hand..
    Cleaning and lubing the wiper boards are pretty much a must especially the score motor's
    wiper board which operates practically non-stop..
    I might have a schematic pretty close to what you have that I can check out. Pretty busy
    weekend for me but maybe tomorrow I can check..
    We do know the score motor doesn't make it's full revolution unless the 1-10 Relay is energized
    and I'm thinking it's in the 2nd Shot Relay or a contact that should be closed after the first shot
    on the Score Motor's cam. Also maybe could be a contact that should be made in the 1st Shot Relay
    when that relay is in the energized position..

    #17 7 years ago

    Here's a link to a high resolution of the schematic on my Chief. I'd bet is virtually identical to your machine:

    http://www.ramegoom.com/john/United_Chief_Shuffle_Alley/schematic01.jpg

    #18 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    but tripping the second shot does nothing.

    Nice clear image on those schematics!
    I reread wondering if the 2nd Shot Relay energized, but even when manually tripping
    the score motor doesn't turn. When both the 1st and 2nd Shot Relays are in their energized
    position, it should complete a circuit to the score motor. I'd make sure the switch stack screws
    are snugly tightened, and clean and make sure the switches are properly adjusted.
    When a strike or spare is made, the 1-10 Relay energizes which completes another circuit
    to the Score Motor which is working okay. So sounds like it's in the 1st or/and 2nd Shot Relay..

    #19 7 years ago

    you also have a 10 th frame step unit on the bottom board.
    it has to agree with everything else, or no dice.
    Keep poundin away at it, you will get it!

    #20 7 years ago

    Progress -- Sort of.... Mopar you were right all the screws on the reset bank switch stacks were loose. I tightened them up and cleaned the switches with 400 grit paper. (Flexstone and switch adjusters are on the way). I will go through it again with the right tools because I don't think it is as clean as it should be. But progress has been made because if I manually hit some pins down and then manually trip the 1st shot relay the motor advances and now sometimes it will recognize the second shot normally from the table top and score and advance to the next player. It always does it now if I manually trip the second shot. Thanks ramegoom for the schematics, I did find on KLOV a set for my machine. They are very similar. Still trying to make sense of them since there are about 5-6 switches in that part of them that deal with these coils. Thanks for all the help everybody. I have read this about 10 times already http://www.pinrepair.com/em/

    Quoted from Dr_of_Style:

    Start with that score motor. clean all the switches, and use a dremel tool, with a brass brush to clean the contacts.

    Which contacts? The ones on the other side of the motor with the wiper arms?

    Schematic.pdfSchematic.pdf

    #21 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    all the screws on the reset bank switch stacks were loose.

    Actually it wouldn't be a bad idea to check all the stacks and snug the screws..
    And yes, cleaning and lubing the score motor's wiper board is a big plus.
    I make it a point to do it to all the wiper boards. I spray carb choke cleaner on
    a small piece of Scotch Brite to clean the wiper boards, then apply a thin film of
    light grease after wiping off cleanly..
    My guess would also be the 1st and 2nd Shot Relays are in need of better cleaning
    once the proper tools arrive. Manually, your hand is moving slower than the slide
    of the puck which gives the (dirty) contacts in the 1st and 2nd Shot Relays more
    time to catch the current. It's good to hear progress is being made.. (T)

    #22 7 years ago

    I always use this stuff on all of my machines' stepper contacts. It's special grease that doesn't turn into carbon when the contacts arc, and makes your stepper contacts last longer. Much better choice over petroleum-based grease:

    pbr-grease (resized).jpgpbr-grease (resized).jpg

    #23 7 years ago

    After cleaning all the switches and adjusting a couple the machine is playable again. Thank you all for the help.

    #24 7 years ago

    That's really good to hear. You spent quite some time on it..
    Maybe you can send a pic of the machine. I forgot the name,
    but years back, I remember going through a 1951 United for
    someone, and the machine was near Mint. Its basic color was
    yellow, with (maybe multiple) colored pins on the sides.. (T)

    #25 7 years ago

    Mopar - Looked like the one on the left, maybe?
    img02 (resized).jpgimg02 (resized).jpg

    #26 7 years ago
    Quoted from ramegoom:

    Looked like the one on the left, maybe?

    Yeah, somewhat, but it definitely was a 1951 with the 6" pins..
    Are those your machines? That Bally's scoring is pretty responsive, huh..
    I'm going to check out that grease that you advised..

    #27 7 years ago

    This one is a 1953. The pins are shorter than the standard pins, 8-1/2 in. long, and have a special mounting - read that "impossible to find".
    pin (resized).jpgpin (resized).jpg

    #28 7 years ago

    I actually have those 8" pins, and even rarer some 6" pins, and even rarer, a few 4" pins.
    I have one machine with the 6" pins. (Maybe) called "Roll-a-Ball" by Chicago Coin. It's a 1951
    Ball Bowler that rebounds the ball like a puck, and catches it's return in a sack that's on the front
    of the game. The 4" pins are on the first shuffle made (1949 United), that I'm pretty sure came
    in two models. Lit pins, and 4" fly away pins that reset. That's the only game I know of that used
    the 4" pins..

    #29 7 years ago

    The machine is in very good shape. There are some scratches on the backglass but not too bad.

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    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    The machine is in very good shape.

    Oh, I didn't know it was a lit scoring bowler.
    Years back I had a couple 5 Player Shuffles,
    and then later, a 6 Player like yours..
    It's good to know all is working fine.

    #31 7 years ago

    Nice Shuffles! I really like those United shuffles, they hold up well.
    Finished a meld of a 51 Classic lane, to a 56 Deluxe head not long ago, what fun that was!

    8 months later
    #32 6 years ago

    Having trouble with my 1967 united corral shuffle bowling machine I think the switches are not adjusted right on the pin reset motor plays one shot then the play field is dead pins won't reset

    3 years later
    #33 3 years ago

    United Pinnacle bowler singlezero pictures

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    2 years later
    #34 8 months ago
    Quoted from Burgertime:

    The machine is in very good shape. There are some scratches on the backglass but not too bad.

    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Getting a 1951 United "6 Player" Deluxe Shuffle Alley going myself. Was working great, after another great pinsider here sent me a bushing for my reset motor.

    Replaced the rebound rubber, added new cork side trim, even made a new pin shroud per "Mopar" instructions (looked great BTW Mopar)

    Then the coil plunger to the main relay bank broke completely in half..but got a replacement and it's working once again.

    Problem - it seems to be stuck in a reset mode. Or even scoring duplicate mode. Sometimes when I start a game, it just sets in reset mode, some pins raising, then all, then different ones raising - never really starting a game.

    I can manually push in the "start relay" which gets the game in a playing mode - then if I hit a spare or strike - it repeats the scoring for several frames (sometimes to the end of game, then in repetitive reset mode as described above)

    I thought it may be the new coil plunger, not plunging enough or vice versa. but this started happening right before that plunger broke (probably constant resetting made it break?)

    Anything to check on for this resetting issue?

    #35 8 months ago

    Some photos of this one

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    #36 8 months ago
    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    Anything to check on for this resetting issue?

    Actually, it does sound like the Reset Bank coil isn't energizing, or not pulling in
    enough to reset the Relays. Check if the Bank Relays are resetting. If not, it'll stay
    in the Reset mode until the switch is turned off..
    Check the contacts at the Score Motor that energizes the Bank Reset Coil (110V).
    Good chance it's the only set in that stack, and it makes just before the run-out
    switch opens (toward the very end of the Score Motor's cycle)..

    #37 8 months ago

    Thanks Mopar. It’s def cycling and seems to be resetting all relays. Except the Start relay. I have to manually move it. Then it still keeps resetting after that.

    #38 8 months ago

    With the game off, playfield lifted up, I can manually stroke the relay bank and all but the start relay hold. Maybe a good cleaning around the relay plate?

    #39 8 months ago
    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    I can manually stroke the relay bank and all but the start relay hold.

    If it's consistent, I wouldn't think the Relay Plate is magnetized.
    Might the Start Relay Plate's spring be broken, or the tab that
    holds one end of the spring to keep it latched? The Start Relay
    may be staying energized, but I suspect it's at the Start Relay
    itself..

    #40 8 months ago

    After looking at it more closely, I don't think the coil plunger I received is fully pulling the arm down, hence not full resetting relays. May have to look at replacing the arm assembly to match the new plunger tho.

    #41 8 months ago

    The plunger on the right is the older broken model.

    It has a small separate piece with a small button end for the coil stop (but totally separate piece)

    It also had a larger dia hole at the top with a small pivot piece/sleeve.

    The new one is in one piece and small hole at the top. Overall length compared with the original plunger it looks to be about 1/4” longer. Probably just enough to not fully retract?

    D5F361E0-1800-47A0-BA1D-609AD9E8FB41 (resized).jpegD5F361E0-1800-47A0-BA1D-609AD9E8FB41 (resized).jpegEAB30A1D-1A96-4BC7-B1DE-D4A22FF3C846 (resized).jpegEAB30A1D-1A96-4BC7-B1DE-D4A22FF3C846 (resized).jpeg
    #42 8 months ago

    When I align them they don’t seem too far off in length tho. Could that difference be the problem of not resetting?

    C39343D1-C369-48B6-BA43-5357A408D04B (resized).jpegC39343D1-C369-48B6-BA43-5357A408D04B (resized).jpeg
    #43 8 months ago
    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    When I align them they don’t seem too far off in length tho. Could that difference be the problem of not resetting?

    To me it looks as if it could make a difference and not allow it to have enough travel..
    With the new plunger back in, if you manually push in the plunger, does the plunger
    seem to bottom out before fully resetting the relays?

    #44 8 months ago

    Have to push really hard to get a full reset

    #45 8 months ago

    What's the exact length of the original and new plunger?

    #46 8 months ago

    See if this helps.

    45E2A5E9-59D4-4C19-B50B-69F54417C4D8 (resized).jpeg45E2A5E9-59D4-4C19-B50B-69F54417C4D8 (resized).jpegCD5157AF-D2FF-4083-B213-2DAB21F5FDDB (resized).jpegCD5157AF-D2FF-4083-B213-2DAB21F5FDDB (resized).jpeg
    #47 8 months ago

    Not only longer, but all but the small bottom portion of that new plunger looks skinnier..
    From the pic, the original plunger appears to be 3" or a little over. I was thinking it was
    close to 2 3/4" which I may have. Can you double check and take a precise measurement
    of the original plunger's length?

    #48 8 months ago

    Sorry mopar. Grandkids in for a visit! Lol

    9/16” dia.
    As it’s broken I’m guesstimating 2 1/2” lg

    Not including that small piece that is separate with the nib on the end It’s 9/16” lg as well

    #49 8 months ago

    Got you covered. I sent a pm..

    #50 8 months ago

    WOW! WOW! WOW! That part worked "Mopar"! This and the part from "Drain1" - this 1951 machine is working fully once again! Amazing help gentlemen! Thank you!

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