(Topic ID: 207988)

1949 Williams "Tucson" motor won't stop running...

By pintech69

4 years ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by pintech69
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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20180209_152035-motor_picB (resized).jpg
20180209_152021-motor_picA (resized).jpg
0Freshie-my-Score-Motor (resized).JPG
0Freshie-Work-02.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 4 years ago

So, last year I finally got around to restoring a 1949 Williams Tucson. It has lightbox scoring. Over a period of days, I went through the entire pin and cleaned up the stepper units and checked all the switches. A few needed to be corrected and at least one cam follower needed to be replaced. Other than that, everything looks good. My problem (Of course) is that the motor won't stop. I've read many of the different posts here to see if anything could help, but I've still not had any luck. I don't have any schematics. (I know from the different posts that I've read that they might come in handy...) The thing I notice is that there is a big blue spark coming off a single switch on the motor marked "Switch Energizes Reset Relay". When I manually open the gap on that switch of course the motor stops. If I close the gap, and switch makes contact, the motor is off and running. I do remember reading that the problem is probably not at the motor, but somewhere else that is keeping power to that switch. I'm trying to be efficient in my efforts so is there anyone who can help me narrow down the issue? (And If there are startup sequences or schematics anywhere to be had, I'd love that too.) Thanks in advance for the help. Bruce

#2 4 years ago

One or more switches are sending power to the score motor and most likely one of those switches is mis-adjusted, or a related relay coil is being energized at the wrong time. If you don't have a schematic, you'll need to trace the wires from the score motor coil. A wire from the score motor will connect directly, or indirectly, to approximately four or five relay switches. These would be the first "primary" switches to check in the score motor circuit. For example, if an orange colored wire was connected to the score motor coil, then you would want to look for any orange wires connected to any plugs and relay switches in the main cabinet. Make sure those primary relay switches are clean and adjusted properly. If one of those switches was closed from the result of an energized relay coil, and it was a normally open switch, then you would want to trace the wire from the energized relay coil that was closing the switch. That is, what switches would be sending power to that particular relay coil?... This is very time consuming, but it's possible to find issues with this tracing method...

If you think you're going to keep the machine for a long time, it would be worth getting a schematic. Doing a search of Tucson owners, there are a few Pinsiders that have this game, so they might have a copy of the schematic. Also, The Pinball Resource "might" have a copy of the schematic...

https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/tucson/owners

http://pbresource.com

#3 4 years ago

I did check a few weeks ago with The Pinball Resource. He did not have a schematic. I really appreciate your reply. I did smile at the part of your reply that mentioned colored wires. Since this pinball is 70 years old, most of the wiring is pretty much some shade of mustard colored. I hate to have to clip the strings that are bundling the wires together, but I may have to, to be able to follow these "circuits" around. Thanks again. I'll post when I've made some more headway. Thanks again.

#4 4 years ago

Here are 2 other Tucson owners. Maybe one of them has a schematic and you'll be able to charm them into scanning it at Staples for $2 or Kinkos for $6.

https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/tucson/owners

#5 4 years ago

Another option for finding the correct circuit is to disconnect one side of the suspect wire from its component and do a continuity test with a multi-meter on the wire to see if it's part of the circuit you are tracing...

#6 4 years ago

Hi pintech69
I happen to have an Williams Freshie - a "project", not running. From pinsider(s) I could get some JPG's (a paginated schematics) - I have put together - did some work "freshen-up, bleaching" - I have some MB-data stuff --- here is the area "Score-Motor".
IF You want me to send to You copies of "what I have": Send me a personal message with an EMail-Address - I do not post MB's of data in pinside.

See the second pic - my Freshie Score-Motor has only ONE Paper-Tag telling "Motor running Switch". Greetings Rolf

0Freshie-Work-02.pdf

0Freshie-my-Score-Motor (resized).JPG

#7 4 years ago

Thanks to Rolf_Martin, I've got some schematics to pour over. It's awesome. Hopefully soon I will have an answer to where my trouble is. When I do. I will post the exciting conclusion. Thanks everyone.

#8 4 years ago

Funny...I thought PBR had virtually all the WLMS and GTB flipper games's schematics, with the exception of some rare and one-off type games. So when I saw this, I emailed Steve and asked him...turns out he does have it, so not sure what happened, but you can get it from there.

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Sean Kavanagh
Jan 26 (5 days ago)
Hi Steve...

Do you have ALL the schematics from GTB? How about WLMS? I was under the impression you had every one of those two manufacturers....excepting maybe a few oddball non-pinball or rare games?

Just curious...saw someone say that you didn't have an early WLMS flipper game...

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Steve Young
Jan 26 (5 days ago)

to me
I think all Gottlieb, I think all wms (would be interested in knowing which one we didnt have!), I think all flipper Bally. Have alot of the oddball stuff as well...it would be interesting to have a contest!

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Sean Kavanagh
Jan 26 (5 days ago)

to Steve
Hmmm...shoulda just told you...it was a WLMS Tucson. Not sure why I was keeping that a secret....lol

Some guy was looking for help, some other guys told him to get the schematic(as they should), and he said he called you and you didn't have it. It smelled a little to me...thought I'd check.

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Steve Young
Jan 27 (4 days ago)

to me
I have TUCSON schematic. Dont recall anyone calling for it.

Schematic is hard to come by...my copy came directly from Wms files (copy of their blueprint) as I never found one in any schematics we acquired.

He may have called someone else. If he called or emailed, he would have received an affirmative answer.

We will see!

#9 4 years ago

So, it looks like I'll be calling Steve today (Feb 6th). Thanks for checking that.

On another note, I finally tracked down my issue... So after going through this thing again with a fine tooth comb, and only finding one slightly mis-adjusted switch, I decided to tear the Motor apart... drilling out the rivets and everything. After a thorough cleaning and fine polishing of the main shaft, the motor now stops immediately! So the problem was that the motor would run, and then because of gummed up works in the armature, the thing wouldn't disengage properly causing the motor to over-run and start all over again... so the problem was not electrical, but mechanical. I really didn't want to have to tear the motor up like that, but it was necessary as now it works like new!

I remember reading a little blurb about something like this when I first went to town on getting this pin back up and running. It was in the Pinrepair articles, section 3f... labeled Score Motor Brake. Here is an excerpt:

"Score Motor Brake.
On Gottlieb games, there is also a "brake" switch. This is easy to identify; it's the score motor switch with no wires attached! It's purpose is to stop the score motor from "over running" a "home" position. If this switch is broken, this can also cause the score motor to over shoot a home position, and to continue running endlessly. Other makers use different brakes. Often the needle gear will disengage after power is removed from the score motor, not allowing the motor to over-run. Bally and Williams used a different brake system where the motor's armature disengages from the gear box when power is cut to the motor. This way the armature can continue to spin without turning the gears."

This last sentence is the important one. So from now on, I'll just be the guy who tears everything down and cleans it, and polishes it, and makes it "like new" so I don't have this kind of "stuff" (used in place of angry, foul words) happen again. This is the second EM that has given me fits with the "gummy" issues.

I'll make another post shortly. Hopefully with a photo or two.

#10 4 years ago

Reading back at my original post to start this journey, apparently I had a switch that was mislabeled as "Switch energizes reset relay". With the help of Rob Kramer (another Tucson owner), he sent me some pics of the underside of his Tucson. This label was in the wrong place on mine! It was over the area that should be labeled "Motor Running Switch". Now this makes much more sense. So aside from that (which has also now been corrected), and the actual motor being gummy, I think I'll call this project finished!

Thanks to everyone who chipped in on the help. I am especially grateful for PM's from Rolf, and being able to contact Rob with getting (and giving) some great info on this machine. I'll be adding some photos to the database so hopefully we can help out the next person in regards to keeping these things alive. As of today, I think this particular machine is 69 to 70 years old and now plays like it was originally designed!!!

#11 4 years ago

Not sure if these pics show the detail, but one is with the motor core disengaged from the gear train and the other is with the core "engaged". I used a popsicle stick to push the core over to show on the other side where it engages with pins or tabs with the gear train. The shaft and core both have to be clean (and polished to shine like new) and the spring that pushes the core away from the tabs has to be intact! Now I know...

20180209_152021-motor_picA (resized).jpg

20180209_152035-motor_picB (resized).jpg

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