Man, I wish I could find a TV made in a first world country with first world labor like Japan. Make? Model?

Same. I love drop targets and the idea that they are all controllable on the Hobbit is pretty exciting. I picture what they could have done on WPT with that feature and get chills. I am looking forward to trying the Hobbit especially now that they have improved its artwork and design.

I give Jack a lot of credit, but being an operator does not make you an engineer........pinball is all about the engineering. Jack tried to reinvent the wheel and that was his big mistake. He should have first built a pinball company with unique games on the current platforms that could make money. Instead he took on too much risk. There was a good reason Stern has progressed so slowly and thats because a lot can go wrong. I still think JJP machines focus too much on the bells and whistles and not enough on the game.......Mind you those bells and whistles are amazing, but it's just too much for a new company. FOCUS ON THE BASICS! I would have rather seen JJP invest in an interchangeable play field system like Heighway........That is innovation and I believe it's the only way this hobby will grow. I have plenty of money, I don't have more space!

JJP tried to get people for little or no money. Multiple examples of JJP offering people ridiculous salaries, or no salary just stock. There were four of us who had such offers at a stern release party, three of them extremely well know pinball legends. We were chatting about how all of us received these offers. You get what you pay for. I believe Keith was probably the only well paid JJP employee as they needed an A list programmer and had no other options.

That's exactly where I'm at. If Heighway can get it right I can easily see me buying a couple of games a year off them

I hope they do also. And I hope they produce a high quality product. That certainly does seem to be high on their list of intentions.

I havnt read this whole thread but am curious what happend to Captain Nemo?

The OP was overly pessimistic. Yes.

However, there is one external event that could make his prediction truer than we all want:

A major economic downturn.

Primarily because most these new companies are building machines in the 7-8k range. If the market appetite for that price point tanks, I seriously doubt they COULD build a $5k machine.... Stern can.

Most likely SOME of these new companies will survive. The bar has risenfor survival though, as the appetite for blindly trusting prepayment has shrunk considerably.

Also, all these boutiques MUST deliver good/great machines. I doubt any of them could financially withstand ONE title being poorly received or not selling out (witness JJP doing major redesign when their initial visions for TH was panned).

Personally, I think the CGC/PPS model is a pretty strong one. Leverage a REAL factory for assembly rather than trying to do it in the basement or build one from scratch. I could see another boutique try to go that path as well.

pinball only needs 2 manufactures to thrive. Like Sony and Microsoft. Boutique designs should be bought by the manufacturers for production. But trying to assemble pins as a boutique sounds like a long term nightmare.

So in what market are Sony and Microsoft the only two manufacturers, and in competition with each other?

Come on man. You know this. Video game consoles. Nintendo is so far behind and will not be making another console. Hence why they announced mobile games coming. There really isn't a need for more than 2 major pinball production facilities. If eached cranked out 2-3 pins a year, that's more than enough for the market to bear. Prices would fall too.

What I'm saying is boutique should be designing pins that could just be handed off to a manufacturer for production. All of this redesigning of the basic platform is what's gonna kill boutique guys. Making a pinball should become easier not harder.

Nintendo won't be making another console? You should google Nintendo NX.

What about the Steam Box? That's the android of gaming consoles.

It's a two horse race right now. Maybe they will. So how many pinball manufactures do you think there should be? The market can bear?

I think the market could handle several manufacturers, but I don't see any reason to put a number on how many there "should" be. That's kinda up to how they run their business.

I also think we don't have any clue how much money there is available in the untapped market. A new company could draw $1mil from the market tomorrow if they showed up with a ready to ship game that was decent.

The home console market has a HUGE barrier of entry for new companies. For the most part, the hardware manufacturers rely on established publisher networks to bring games to the platforms.

The barrier of entry for a new pinball company right now is pretty low. As I mentioned, show up with a game that's in boxes, ready to ship, and you are doing better than half of the pinball companies in existence today. You can't say that about many other markets.

Great/insightful post. The founder/CEO of a company doesn't need to be omniscient, but he needs to hire A-list engineers that know how to focus and make tough decisions. Here's a great Steve Jobs quote.

“People think focus means saying yes to the thing you've got to focus on. But that's not what it means at all. It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully. I'm actually as proud of the things we haven't done as the things I have done. Innovation is saying no to 1,000 things.”

I'm sorry, but making 400lb. wide bodies with dedicated play fields isn't forward thinking. It misses the big picture. Like you, I have more money than space. I'm over capacity @ 16 and can't consider a pin purchase without selling something.

I agree. Just a lot harder to have a game in box than most people think. Making pinball is hard

Man

It would be cool to have interchangeable PF's

When LCD's takeover there wouldn't even be a need to store translites. USB code changes would mean no ROM changes required. Heck you could push code from your damn iPhone to the pinball via wifi actually.

This would give operators a lower cost to freshen up a route & buy in @ lower cost while reducing storage fees/space requirements.

Also in the home a fella could have a fleet of say 5 cabinets w/maybe 15 PF's in a storage room. You know us fanatics would create a pinball art gallery in those storage rooms where you pace the hall & choose which one to install for the next week/month. Now that I think about it we'd prolly display the PF's on custom shelves mounted like works of art instead of neons or posters.

That would also allow gamerooms to accommodate more seating & more toys like Foosball, arcade machines, bubble hockey, shuffleboard, flat panels, jukes, projector screens & so on.

Imagine not buying a DMD/LCD, boardset, audio components, cabinet, coin door, glass & etc when you're buying a new game.

My god, no more "wish I was closer shipping kills the deal" posts lol

Damn damn damn!

Sorry to go off topic but you're insane if you think Nintendo will be leaving the console industry anytime soon.

But this is about pinball, and as a Pinside noob, I'm having a hard time who is saying anything even remotely close to the truth and who is just pumping out white noise. Seems all a bit "Sky is falling" if you were to ask me.

What would be forward thinking, then? Smaller cabs? That didn't work out so well for Pinball2000. Interchangeable playfields? Could be cool. That's why I'm real excited for P3!

Oh shit

What if Stern made modular VE's?

Then we could speculate about a TronLE VE populated playfield lmfao

If LOTR, TSPP, FGY, ACDC & Tron were made into VE modular PF's that would be sick. I could have just one cabinet & then buy life size Daft Punk statues to fill the space!

Kaneda are you crazy?? Wii U is by far the best "new" console. And they have just announced a new console in the works. Plus Nintendo has tons of real Money and is doing great. PS4 and Xbox are the ones who wont be around for another console

the sky may not be falling, but there have been some very high profile failures that have cost several people a significant amount of money...

the only person who has been able to produce a significant number of machines (other than gary) is jack, and anecdotal evidence would suggest that it is not all sunshine and roses at jjp...

personally, i think that one or two of the little guys will carve out their niche (charlie already has) producing machines in small numbers... how long they will remain interested in doing so remains to be seen...

most of the others have already either failed or are well on their way there... and some of the characters involved in those failures (wes upchurch in the case of vonnied, kevin kulek in the case skitb, et.al.) have left a very bad taste in people's mouths... and the disaster that is zidware adds to that bad taste, especially since the person involved was a "known" industry guy...

so again, while the sky may not be falling, there have been some damn big hailstones lately...

and fwiw, is it really necessary to drag the childish "console wars" bs onto pinside?

If only one of the new pinball manufacturers would do this, it would be.....oh, wait...

Guys, it's being done, right now (as Rob was alluding to). Every Heighway game is going to be interchangeable.

Buy a Full Throttle today (on the line, shipping within a few weeks) and when Alien comes out you can buy just the Alien playfield and art package, for cheaper than a full game, and swap it into your existing Full Throttle cab. 15 minute job to swap. Your old playfield goes in the box the new one came in, and stores under your cabinet.

Side art is made from backlit plastic, take it out, put in the new one, whole cab will look like a factory new game.

Rinse and repeat with game #3. Keep a little stack of games in the space of one.

I love the way the Heighway cabinets let you slide in and out new side artwork. Also, the design for serviceability is a major plus. There is a lot to like about their new system, mid-width playfield and I can't wait to play their offerings. Here is hoping they are alive and doing well in 2016.

Not trying to be a dick about it but...

Heighway is late as shit, they've got nothing out there, I'm not into Full Throttle theme at all & nothing has been shown of Alien.

It's difficult for me to get excited about that.

But the thought of Stern, a company that could deliver interchangeable PF's of VE games of the past that I adore & the cool shit of the future is super exciting to me.

I'm just keeping it real & speaking my mind. Don't take it personal

I'm not a fan of it at all personally. I like the idea of a dedicated single game better for some reason. I'm not a fan of MAME's either though. The hassle of switching between games and storing playfields safely would also be annoying to me. But I'm sure it suits some people.

On a side note, how do you keep the artwork from getting stolen as route operators?

I'm sure they will sell you a cabinet for every game

No company turns away money

Exactly. Its just an option. Good for operators and good for people who are limited in space. If you think about it, there is an opportunity for aftermarket, homebrew or even advertising artwork to be installed or removed easily.

I'm not sure there is a huge benefit to operators? Cabinets will still get the crap beat out of them and will need replacing so the savings is only so much. I would assume the resale value will always depend on whether the operator includes a cabinet or not. So where is the benefit? I'm still curious how operators will keep the artwork from getting stolen? Do you have to have the coin door open or something to release the artwork panels? And how is the artwork installed/removed on the front of the game?

....
bc4cb2d18aeb36e8e218829d24ed3978.jpg

Sure. I'm just saying, it's a done deal, there's a manufacturer doing swappable games now. Full Throttle isn't shipping yet, but it's literally on the line right now, just waiting for some last parts, and a video and pictures of it being built have been put out. Not vapor ware is my only point.

People need to see it shipping. They need first hand reviews. They need to play it. Nothing it going to happen with it before that, no question. That's the climate we're in.

But if someone did want one, they would also know that they're buying a "platform" and could easily turn it into more games later. That's cool. I'm getting an Alien LE, I have no intention of swapping it, but hey, I could always change my mind later if something came out. Why not?

Artwork is attached from the inside. It's backlit plastic, roughly 40" x11". No way to remove it without opening up the game. It would be like worrying someone would steal your translite.

That's actually a great question, and it should actually help determine what if anything would cause a market downturn.

The other stuff that people are saying - big economic downturn, new president (don't understand that one at all), etc only change the game if the people in the hobby decide to get out and / or stop soaking up so many new releases every year.

Based on my 15ish year history, I'm good to soak up about three machines a year, but I'm pretty focused on getting a house and then will be trimming the herd and I don't expect an increase in quantity after that point.

It all comes down to how many people will soak up machines (whether nib or not) to establish demand. I definitely think in a few years we'll still have enough people for minimally three manufacturers.

...too late.

The term "shopping" a game implies rotating it back to the shop to be be worked on before going out on route. For an operator have more playfields than cabinets would be cool innovation. Do a little research on these games as there is a lot more cool ideas than meets the eye. A lot of thought went into it. For instance the entire flipper assembly including the bat can be disconnected, removed and replaced in the field and brought back to the shop to be rebuilt.

I'm a fan of the modular cabinet idea for several reasons:

Lower cost for new game
UPS shipping of PF
Cabinet becomes one time cost (cabinet is huge chunk of game cost)
Could replace backglass with LCD (somebody do this already!)

But... I don't think it will really catch on because:

Pinheads want special numbered Vault edition games
Changeable cab art will never look as good as dedicated art
A game that can be swapped out will have less collector value

Remember this is an industry where a drawing of a purple woman caused hundreds of people to re-buy something they already had.

Postscript: Nintendo may have lots of cash but so did Blackberry. They don't have MS or Apple cash. And their next console is guaranteed to be a POS Android TV box.

I've been enjoying reading some of the posts in this thread (especially those by Jack and Rick) rather than posting but I will respond to this.

The sky is certainly not falling for pinball, quite the opposite actually. BUT, with the increase in demand there are obviously people trying to fill in the supply gaps by forming their own pinball companies. It's the nature of a new business, but especially in a market like this, that failure can happen and large sums of money can be lost. Nobody knows who will succeed or fail, despite anything you read here. There are those who are "in the business" and talk to each other...some rumors, but plenty of facts...but very few are going to air out that dirty laundry on a public forum and risk their reputation, money, etc. So don't believe everything you read. But, if you're going to put money down for a product before it's finished (ie pre-order) to be one of the first to get it, and the product is never finished or comes late...well, that's the price you pay for trying to be one of the first. If pre-ordering was a guaranteed safe bet, everyone would be doing it. I would love to have a Big Lebowski, but there is no way I'm giving someone (in another country no less) a bunch of money with a "promise" to get it "someday soon".

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you aren't exchanging money for something that doesn't exist yet (pre-ordering), you have nothing to fear in a pinball machine purchase Well besides all the scammers on Pinside, but that's a different thread.

By the way, Pinball 2000 had a short life for reasons beyond Pinball 2000 itself. And it had interchangeable playfields...but unfortunately only 2 games to swap between

I had to think hard about what this was in reference to, but finally got it. You forgot she had big boobs, and was in a suggestive pose!

We will have to see how Heighway's system catches on from an op perspective.

As discussed ad nauseum re: Pin 2K, the idea of being able to drop off a new game into a location without hauling a new game into place is appealing, along with all the other easier to maintain ideas.

The downside is your resale value is now appreciably less than with a full game as you are now targeting collectors or other ops who already have the system. With the internet though, it will be easier to find that "one right buyer" and ship the playfield to them if you decide you are done with it.

IF I were looking to route a game, I would at least look at this (not sure how strong an earner Full Throttle would be in my town though, I just know I wan tto play it). Hopefully they get that "killer app" and are able to take off.

Exactly. Pinball 2000 had many interesting design points...shit, even something as simple as being able to lift the PF without worrying about the balls falling all over the place It had very cool diagnostics software (which I guess JJP emulated). At ~7000 units, RFM was far from a "loser" by today's build rates. If B/W wouldn't have exited the pinball biz, I'm certain they would have evolved it and it would have been a survivor.

Make a great playing game, have it ready to ship...and we will then see that Pinball is alive and thriving. Can't wait for that day.

Cool feature, but the side art being actual decals made back and forth swapping kind of odd because the cabinet was basically dedicated to one machine. You could not easily go back without significant time and money.

The big picture could be operators ( pindemption ) and new people buying games. Both need great games. It doesn't matter about swapping games if nobody puts money into ANY of them.

I recall they offered generic "Pinball 2000" decals as well.

I thought she was pink. Pink and hot!

The "special numbered Vault edition games" (LE's) and "collector value" are quickly becoming things of the past for various reasons, including the PPS remakes, the fact that JJP sells over 1000 of their "Limited Edition" pins (and later releases another "limited edition" of the same pin), and even Stern is now considering a run of 800 to be a "Limited Edition".

For people who love to try new games and are always rotating their collection because of it (limited space and/or funds), the modular cabinet with replaceable pf makes perfect sense.

All good points.

I can tell you Alien will have LE specific art that you won't be able to get any other way, so I think that there will still be some attraction there. And of course the LE isn't in a generic cab, it's got the game specific armor. How collectors will respond to it is still a big unknown though.

Changeable art does have some disadvantages, true. I think with Heighway it's offset though by the fact that it's lit up. That's a cool feature.

I didn't design the Heighway system, and I haven't tried it out myself yet. But it seems well thought out. I think it has upsides for both home collectors and ops.

Heighway needs to crank out games while the USD is still balleriffic

I wonder if Stern sees global orders drop when the USD pushes up?

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, pardon me if this is nonsense

Yeah, I keep watching this too. I've been expecting the prices listed on Heighway's page to change as the dollar gains strength against the Euro. But so far, I don't think there has been any change since the original prices were released for Aliens?