This topic is closed.
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:And the crowd falls for the bullshit, hook, line and sinker.
Would have been nice if you told me how you feel to my face Bryan when we sat and had coffee in Texas.
Maybe you don't have the facts you think you have as being truthful?
Don't know what I ever did to you Bryan....
Quoted from PinChili:Jack, you are certainly never short on stories or analogies but the truth or reality is always vague. It's absolutely fantastic that you want to make the best possible game you can. However, in reality, how is it you can afford to take years to develop a single game, with no time constraints, and seemingly unlimited budget? While others struggle to make a profit with a very disciplined timeline, strict budgets, and tight project schedules? And if everything is going so well why are we hearing that some of your vendors are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars and not getting paid? Why are we hearing that you've had to resort to looking to China for parts?
And fyi, folks like Kevin Kulek can claim 30+ years "in the industry" too. It's meaningless when the time hasn't been spent trying to run an entire manufacturing business end to end.
Johnny, I don't know where you get your information from but it is incorrect.
Are you stating fact here or opinion based on rumors and bluster?
Quoted from JerseyJack:Johnny, I don't know where you get your information from but it is incorrect.
Are you stating fact here or opinion based on rumors and bluster?
I'll simply take what you state as being what you believe the truth is. So you are saying that no vendor you deal with is owed thousands and they're all being paid on time?
I'd still very much like to know your secret for having an unlimited project timeline and budget to develop a game.
Also, and this is only a polite request, but I would assume a Hobbit production line is well into being set up so would it be possible to see some pictures of all the stockpiled playfields, parts, and assembly line coming together?
-Tim
Quoted from PinChili:I'll simply take what you state as being what you believe the truth is. So you are saying that no vendor you deal with is owed thousands and they're all being paid on time?
I'd still very much like to know your secret for having an unlimited project timeline and budget to develop a game.
Also, and this is only a request, but I would assume a Hobbit production is far into being set up so would it be possible to see some pictures of all the stockpiled playfields, parts, and assembly line coming together?
-Tim
We did a Periscope broadcast yesterday and showed Hobbit parts. Seems that upsets some people too who wish we were not receiving parts.
Are you a Hobbit customer?
What's your secret for your posts?
We owe money as Stern and CGI and every other company does.
Quoted from PW79:You've just been "sold" dude.
haha. I was already sold, Dude.
I believe in what Jack is doing. I also believe in what Stern is doing. They're passionate about pinball, and so am I.
If I thought Jack was a shyster, I'd be remotely concerned about the garbage in this thread. It sounds like sour grapes, and pot stirring. Trolling, for the sake of it.
My desire is to be a positive voice in the pinball world. I have no time for grumpy people. I'm not looking to lock horns. I was just being funny and dramatic. It was amusing to me. It bugs me that Hobbit is behind schedule, but I don't REALLY care. I need to sell a game to make room for it anyway, and I'm having too much fun playing the games I have.
Quoted from JerseyJack:So shipping a "box of lights" that is void of code or mechanical action "on time" is OK?
I think not - when it cooks and it's done, it's done - then it ships.
I did not take the advice of Eugene Jarvis years ago - he told me "Tell your buyers the games will ship when they are ready to ship" - problem was we did not know what we did not know - so what looks like a lie now was the best truth we knew then - in hindsight we had people inside and outside of the company that told us what we wanted to hear but were not able to keep their word to us.....so...we rely on others to be honest.
Let's say a metal vendor is dealing with JJP, Stern and CGI - we all order some parts from him.
He tells each of us "Six Weeks"
OK
At four weeks he says - snowstorm, parts delay, wrong drawing, etc..etc....
I'm committed already, where are we going? thank you to mention just one variable in the manufacturing process that can change delivery dates,cause complete chaos with assembly and possibly put they entire project at risk due to promised delivered parts..these are the kinds of problems that I believe fellow pinsideres need to hear about to understand what are some of the setbacks to make scheduled ship dates.no question some lack of understanding on what can happen when one vendor does not keep his word with delivery or quality..why not mention some of the other problems so people who are not into the manufacturing world can have a better understand that it is not as easy as it seems that your best planning depend on the manufacturing circle around you..you did not bring up any of my favorites in the production world.........vendor not only not deliver on time but then give you story on new delivery date..you re-plan 3-months work only to find he was just trying to buy time to try to finish...fixture people do not come thru on time then massive amount of parts on the floor you already put money out for doing nothing but sitting...quality hard to find workers that you trained and lost money on for 6 months finally start to get good at their position...then quit...should I go on?? that's why I say thanks to mention as these are not excuses but just a few of the variables that can break a good company .please continue to bring some of these points to lights so people here can get more understanding that it take much more than a "good idea" and 'I have a dream" to make pinball machine of quality on a timely basis
Quoted from JerseyJack:I guess landing a license like Star Wars would tip the scales.......
Oh man this statement is going to cost me $! Can you imagine what JJP can do with this title! AMAZING!
I think its funny that a community of pinball enthusiast are so harsh and critical when it comes to new companies manufacturing machines. Let them make their own decisions, let them determine their own fate. If you don't like pre-orders, keep your money in your pocket until the game is out! In the end I'm just happy to see this industry gaining fresh interest.
Quoted from JerseyJack:Would have been nice if you told me how you feel to my face Bryan when we sat and had coffee in Texas.
Maybe you don't have the facts you think you have as being truthful?
Don't know what I ever did to you Bryan....
Quoted from JerseyJack:Would have been nice if you told me how you feel to my face Bryan when we sat and had coffee in Texas.
Maybe you don't have the facts you think you have as being truthful?
Don't know what I ever did to you Bryan....
You've always been great to deal with, Jack. It's when you started JJP that I found you had a different side. It was hard for me to say anything at breakfast. You were, once again, throwing your employees under the bus and blaming all your problems on them. I'm certainly not saying your employees and vendors are perfect but nothing is ever your fault. It's always someone else's.
I know I don't have all the facts but I'm so tired of hearing you come here and tell people one thing when I know full well it's a lie. I'd be more than happy to share a few if you'd like.
Quoted from dannunz:Oh man this statement is going to cost me! Can you imagine what JJP can do with this title! AMAZING!
Yes it will look great like the new Star Wars Battle Pod and will be an evergreen money wonder, standing the test of time. Can't wait to have them both on location. This new Star Wars is such a great new experience with incredible dome screen technology. Imagine the crowds watching the stunning HD movie scenes on the new JJP Force Awakens Pin. I can!
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Damn you got a battle pod!
Are those your kids? The one on the right definitely looks like your son. 
You've always been great to deal with, Jack. It's when you started JJP that I found you had a different side. It was hard for me to say anything at breakfast. You were, once again, throwing your employees under the bus and blaming all your problems on them. I'm certainly not saying your employees and vendors are perfect but nothing is ever your fault. It's always someone else's.
I know I don't have all the facts but I'm so tired of hearing you come here and tell people one thing when I know full well it's a lie. I'd be more than happy to share a few if you'd like.
Bryan, it's real easy to contact me. You have been a guest at our factory and I have been to your home.
I'm ultimately responsible, the buck stops with me. I cannot leave JJP as some employees have or can do.
The people that work for companies are responsible for their decisions. That had not happened at JJP for a long time because the "hope" of what would happen was there. Hope is not a plan. We need people who will work and make things happen, not draw a plastic set with the outline of a Penis because they are somehow unhappy.
You only know part of the story my friend and I am not different today as a person but you know what, we need people who will actually do what they are paid to do and not pay me back with lip service. That's why things run late, over budget and there is no accountability because some people do not take responsibility or accountability.
I'm always available to talk with you Bryan......I did offer that to you in person in Texas too.
Quoted from JerseyJack:I guess landing a license like Star Wars would tip the scales.......
The best part of this they can announce the pin at the start of the new trilogy and have it done by the end! Surely that's enough time right?
Quoted from JerseyJack:I'm always available to talk with you Bryan......I did offer that to you in person in Texas too.
I have no reason or desire to talk with you, Jack. For the sake of all those who've invested money with you, I wish you and JJP nothing but the best.
It's too bad that some people can be keyboard warriors in the comfort of their homes but can't talk to you face to face. They look at their thumb up votes from their buddies and feel supported and empowered. Get them alone and they shut up tighter than oyster out of water.
I'm a face to face kinda guy myself. Growing up in the slums of the big city where face to face meetings usually meant finishing the conversation with your fists was my childhood reality. I like face to face. You can accomplish a lot and come to terms with someone and move on in a hurry. This is a good thing. Because you know where everyone stands and you move on. I just hate the tough guy behind the screen crap. Very uncool.
I think it's awesome that Jack comes in here and answers questions when he doesn't have to. Is he perfect? Heck no. He'd be the first to tell you so. But no matter what, Jack ALWAYS comes in here and faces the fire in ways no one else in this industry EVER has. That says a lot about the man and his character. Says even more about his heart and love for this hobby and how compromise doesn't exist in his vocabulary. It shows how hard he is working to set up a great company that continues to take pinball to higher levels and exceed expectations.
In the end, I hope that differences can be aired, problems can get solved, fences can be mended and we can all be closer friends because of it.
Not sure where to start here and I should probably put the keyboard down, but I can't.
Quoted from JerseyJack:So shipping a "box of lights" that is void of code or mechanical action "on time" is OK?
I think not - when it cooks and it's done, it's done - then it ships.
This is great for TH and a applaud the honesty this time around. So far JJP has released one game and it was released with extremely undercooked software and a few serious issues. Sure 6-9 months later the software was made a lot better and even later still the LED boards and reset issues were properly addressed, but that does not change the facts.
Quoted from JerseyJack:Nope - why did it take 3 years to make an 18 year old remake game that they had every drawing and part tooled for and then ran down the line of a known "oldest" pinball manufacturer sputtering out whatever?
Did you really just say that? This is wrong on many levels. First is the obvious level. Lift the hood on an MMr and take a look under the playfield and behind the backglass. MMr has very little in common with MM, and in fact includes a complete new system that is slimmed down and easy to manufacture. It took three years because they waited until it "cooks". But you already knew that, so why post what you did?
The other thing that is amazing to me is how you are so willing to bite the hand that feeds you. Did your Pinball Sales company not make a bunch of money selling MMr? Throwing people under the bus like this is petty and unnecessary. More importantly it paints a much better picture of why JJP has so much trouble dealing with outside companies and suppliers.
Quoted from JerseyJack:Our plan is not 18 months, it's 1,800 months.
Great. I wish JJP good luck. You might have just stuck with this one liner and moved on.
Quoted from Pinfidel:I just hate the tough guy behind the screen crap. Very uncool.
I think it's awesome that Jack comes in here and answers questions when he doesn't have to. Is he perfect? Heck no. He'd be the first to tell you so. But no matter what, Jack ALWAYS comes in here and faces the fire in ways no one else in this industry EVER has. That says a lot about the man and his character. Says even more about his heart and love for this hobby and how compromise doesn't exist in his vocabulary.
Nobody is acting like a "tough guy". We're simply asking the tough questions and in case you haven't noticed, the questions are never answered directly. For example, I asked if vendors were owed large sums of money and whether they were being paid ON TIME. The answer? "We owe money as Stern and CGI and every other company does." That's called deflection.
I think the concern goes back to my question of how JJP can seemingly take as long as they want to develop a game with what seems to be an unlimited budget. Because most business minded people would see that as a red flag. Most everyone here (including me!) want to see JJP thrive, but we're also very mindful of the potential consequences if they fail. It's not just JJP that would fail. It's not just the pre-order folks that would lose their money. There are vendors owed money and failure could certainly have a very negative impact on them. There are other pinball startups (FastPinball?) that would like to have the option of finding seed money but that would turn into an impossibility. There are consequences beyond JJP.
Quoted from megadeth2600:Why would this be a problem? I design systems for a living that have to survive in -40C to 100C temperature extremes and we haven't had a single failure due to surface mount components to date (many circuits in said designs are not unlike what you'd find in a pinball machine)! They've also survived rather rigorous vibration testing that would make a pinball machine look stable and would make most women blush with excitement!!!
Surface mount components and manufacturing techniques are fine. I'm not a big fan of BGA packages in pinball machines simply because they're impossible to replace/rework without a multi-thousand dollar machine, but I'd actually prefer surface mount transistors, caps, resistors, and ICs in pinball machines. They're easier to remove and replace ... you're less apt to burn up traces or trash through holes when you're trying to heat up and remove 30 year old solder with a vaccuum pump.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Now, what if PPS could do titles like WH20 for same price as a Stern pro? Things would get pretty interesting.
Exactly. At that price point, I see PPS/CG doing well with quite a few titles.
Quoted from JonH123:very true
Quoted from JonH123:Most businesses don't make a lot of profit in the very beginning many even operate in the red for a while, but once they have been established for a little while the profits start to increase. My family has owned a business for about 50 years. Starting a business is not easy.
How would you know if your experience comes from a dinosaur? Did you start it 50 years ago? If so your point is valid. Nepotism? Not so much.
Quoted from SadSack:how many people will have the ability to repair them?
It's not rocket surgery.
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:And the crowd falls for the bullshit, hook, line and sinker.
Supporting a company and hoping for their success is different from pre-ordering. I will support all pinball makers for the good of the hobby but I will not pre-order/pre-pay for anything from any manufacturer.
Quoted from jfh:Exactly. At that price point, I see PPS/CG doing well with quite a few titles.
After the first title or two I suspect the PPS titles will start selling for a negotiable street price instead of retail price.
Quoted from JonH123:Deleted post
I agree. Contracting with Stern was a smart move and it is indeed a win-win-win.
I just think that claiming that having a contract for manufacturing as your own infrastructure is stretching it a bit. I don't think that PPS/CG need to build their own line to be successful, but when you outsource there are different risks involved than when you do something in house.
What happens to the "PPS infrastructure" if two years down the road Stern decides they don't want/need to assemble games for others any more? That's a risk PPS has that JJP, Heighway and Spooky don't.
Quoted from McCune:UH-OH , lets see if these Pinfools give you the same treatment as the OP got and shell out 130 thumbs downs .
Bryan Kelly don't get no thumbs down.
Quoted from doughslingers:Yes it will look great like the new Star Wars Battle Pod and will be an evergreen money wonder, standing the test of time. Can't wait to have them both on location. This new Star Wars is such a great new experience with incredible dome screen technology. Imagine the crowds watching the stunning HD movie scenes on the new JJP Force Awakens Pin. I can!
20150417_120541.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
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Not to get off subject, but MAN I wish I was one of Doughslingers' kids! I mean drive in theaters, pinball room and now the new Star Wars Battle Pod! DADDY!
Quoted from mountaingamer:Sure - it is different.... JJP has built a factory, and designs & builds their own original games.
As well as take a lot of money that he has not delivered on
Even the biggest JJP detractors will admit that their first finished product is a blessing to the industry. And even I would suggest that if the truth were told from start to finish, it may well have squashed the project at several different points.
Having said that, sometimes it's just frustrating that people need to be lied to to go along. Some people don't mind and others don't like to be lied to. So I sort of blame human nature for the fact that Jack needs to blow smoke up people's asses to get them to go along for the ride.
What I'm trying to say is that I commend JJP and Jack specifically for creating something quite magnificent. WHat I am questioning is the long-term viability of the model built on several-year loans from your customers. The mountain is steepest at the top and JJP has yet to cross the precipice.
Armchair quarterbacking is about worthless, but pointing out the signs that the road may be out around the corner is not the same as hoping the bus goes in the ditch.
Quoted from indypinhead:+1
Maintaining a business is just as hard.
Even hard. After the design, funding challenges, set up, and production line is complete, then you have to cash flow and make a profit. I know many people feel making a profit is an evil concept, but banks and investors don't.
Quoted from JerseyJack:I guess landing a license like Star Wars would tip the scales.......
So does this mean Pats game is license or are you talking game 4 when you have not put out game 2?
Quoted from JerseyJack:I guess landing a license like Star Wars would tip the scales.......
Oh God, please tell me Jack, the PL's game is not going to be Star Wars. I hate star wars except for the first three. Every Star Wars pin has sucked terribly.
Quoted from JonH123:Deleted post
The difference is that Rick refuses to answer questions he doesn't like. Jack isn't afraid to take those on.
As with most CEO's, there's a lot of ego involved with Jack and Rick. They are both salesmen with healthly egos. Jack has shown that he is smart enough to know he isn't always right and that is a good thing for his customer base and business. Rick is convinced his way is the only way and that he is always right. I hope they both do well, but time will tell who will be more successful in the long run. In 2013, I would have bet on Rick. In 2015, I think it's Jack.
Quoted from Methos:I know many people feel making a profit is an evil concept, but banks and investors don't.
Profit is not evil except when coupled with paying your employees a slave wage, a rusty scalpel, do-it-yourself healtcare plan, and no retirement plan. It's the busted social contract that is the biggest concern. I'm not pointing a finger at any specific pinball company, but just the trend of the way that labor is being treated in the U.S as a whole.
Quoted from thedarkknight77:I often wonder how JJP can be making any money??
making it up on volume! 
I just don't get all the drama and bitching. Some of you make it sound like you want all pinball companies to crash and burn. Two companies took the time to respond and are dedicated to making more pins. They are immediately blasted for doing so for what sounds like personal reasons. Do you guys even like playing pinball anymore? I would think it would be a good thing for jjp and pps to keep producing games. Not sure I will ever buy one but it will be nice to have that option.
Quoted from JerseyJack:I guess landing a license like Star Wars would tip the scales.......
Yes, because we all know that *any* pin that has the Star Wars license turns out to be one of the best pins ever made!
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