Getting booted from KLOV should be worn like a badge of honor. The moderation over there is so f---ing ridiculous.

You can't even say on the sales forum that someone is selling something for double what a common vendor does, or they ban you for "price policing".

F-tards...

Ah, the advantage of freedom ... just ask out of the contract. No one is forcing anyone to be a distributor.

Dude come on. A complete playfield swap in 12 hours has to be a record.

That doesn't help him on the 17 he still has to service...

Its easy to type that you can do it in 12 hours, THis is how alex is, talk

There is truth to this thread.

It's great your woz experience was good. But 17 out of 17 being bad is not unreasonable. I bought 3 and 3 out of 3 were terrible nightmares to keep running. Led boards constantly dying among other issues. I believe the wozes sold needed a lot of service calls and those calls aren't over. So far the three wozes I am referring to have all had full light board and power supply swaps. But this is only after being down on and off for months. And the full power supply and board swap takes several hours. Having to pay someone to do that as in the OP's case for free would suck - a lot.

There is no contract and he is out already - so - that should make everyone "Happy"

i think he must've had a chooch and a gurgle before he posted

You had early games and they were lots of trouble. That's what happens with early adopters...sorry but we stood by and helped everyone and continue to do that even with games out of Warranty.

Ultimately - WE service them. They are ALL JJP customers.

As PinballSales.com we opened thousands of games that we did free service calls on, free parts and on and on. We received zero support from any factory and in the "end" we received the Goodwill -

I'm not disputing that and you guys definitely did stand by and get the issues sorted out with free parts. In the end the games are now all running well. But I did literally take months and me going to shows with my woz being the only game that breaks etc. I know how much labor I had to put into those and can only imagine if I had to drive to 17 people's houses and do it for free rather than support 3 games in a hobby.

We have sold close to a hundred woz's. When I talk to customer's that have them in arcades. I am told they are one of their most reliable pins. I have proto type number 2 that still runs in my shop today. It's been hauled around to all the pinball shows. Has thousands of plays on it. I think they are a very reliable pin. Especially if you look at what's in this pin compared to other pins that are out there today.

I want to share that my very early LE had 2 issues and I was not able to make it happen. Jack Sent someone all the way out to my home from 2 hours away to diagnose it. Parts arrived 4 days later and I swapped one board and all was fine after that. I sold that game but, since brought home a NIB standard that has had absolutely zero issues since day one. Not one. Just saying'

Pinball is not perfect. Every single NIB Stern I have bought has had issues as well. I have also had restored games with issues. It's pinball and thats part of it. Sucks when it happens we all know that. I do understand the op's statements.

Oh I understand it is an opinion. It's not a popular one to certain people but as a pinball player as well I am definitely not alone with my feelings about the gameplay here. We've all given it tons of opportunities but it's not really "exciting", just too many old school type slowdown things for the play...honestly I still don't see what the appeal is. Hobbit looks like it may be great, so I am looking forward to that.

Well the problem is you have more clowns complain about pricing that is actually good, but think it is "bad", happened to me on here more than once....in actuality this is one of the only forums that allows it that I know of, and it's just not consistent. Too many "clique middle school guys" telling one guy his price is great, and their buddy's is fine. I just look at it this way...if you don't like the price move on.

I had one clown on KLOV try to follow that rule and tell me my 720 was overpriced at $700. Yet people are trying to sell it for much higher, but he's nowhere to be found outing them, and my price was fair market value...just too many inconsistencies and people just end up flooding the thread and derailing it complaining about pricing....

I have what I believe is the 2nd WOZLE recorded on Pinside. Had some light board issues at first but expected - and looked forward - to working out the kinks with an early production game. Its been rock solid once the light board problems were resolved. Not trying to discredit anyone reporting problems, just thought a little balance might be in order. JJP stood by me and this game from the start.

Been there done that on WoZ. Tons of quick disconnects

This needs to be settled in a good old-fashioned MTV Celebrity Death Match

"It's a crotch-grabbing, Mexican stand-off!"

That is one of the most illogical questions I have seen. So, according to your train of thought, a pinball owner who supports the community should drive 1.5 hours each way and spend a day fixing a pinball problem ... and somehow feel obligated to do this for free. I made no money on the sale and am in a "business" that is not even tangentially related to pinball. I would love to hear your argument on how I should do this for free even though I am not related to the transaction.

I did it as a favor to Jack and he took care of my expenses. My family decided to make a day of it in Chattanooga as it is a great place to visit. I also hate to hear of a newbie in pinball that is struggling and wanted to help. I have no desire to be involved in the pinball industry. There are wonderful people on this site that are helping others. I just wanted to do my small part in supporting the community.

Is that so hard to believe? I'd bet you would do the same if given the opportunity.

Ticket #s are a absolute joke, I opened two when I received my NIB woz and NEVER heard back from JJP and that was months ago. Its a broken useless system.

Tickets are supplemental for tracking and resolution progress along with parts order status. Did you call the support line like it states both in the manual and on the paper work for the game?

Yep

I did call, I was told to go online and register the game and then open a ticket. That's what I did. I never heard back. Luckily I was able to contact Lloyd thru a pm here on Pinside and resolved one issue. I had a tech over for one of my B/W and he fixed another. I am still living with the scratched piece of invisiglasss that came on it.

My apron was damaged in shipping, my game is an early one and missing a metal guard behind the castle wall. If you hit the ball around the upper loop on the upper playfield it jump the wire for and gets stuck all the time. They made a new part for this on later games. I filled out a ticket, there was one response, will order it for you. That was the last I heard.

Please email me about the invis [email protected]. Thanks

Mike all you have to do is raise that guide a tiny bit as it was hammered in a bit too far. If there was a new higher guide made I'll see about getting you one. Not sure who responded to your ticket but send me the number.

Ok Jen, will do. Thanks

Alright, I have no skin in this argument, except that I have pinball machines, and I am a potential customer of JJP's.

It seems there are frequent issues brought up regarding WOZ issues out of box. Whether the repair tracking system works, doesn't work, or needs to be better explained/utilized, or the distro's aren't getting the help they need, or the machines just aren't reliable enough to leave the factory, I don't know, but it's obvious there's an underlying issue that needs to be addressed to prevent these situations from happening over and over again.

I'm not going to say who's right or who is wrong, but, here's some constructive feedback, it doesn't give the potential customer any solace watching JJP workers make backhanded suggestions about their ability to fix something. Bragging about how you can swap a playfield in 12 hours is great man, good for you. Everyone doesn't work for the company, have all these parts on hand or have a workshop to work on machines. What do you expect the distro to do, spend 12 hours inside someone's house on their brand new game swapping everything out? Come on, that'll go over like another JPOP preorder.

As a potential buyer I appreciate all the input from people so I can make a well informed buying decision. It just sucks that, as a casual non-pinhead, it looks like a mess to get this game, a battle between 2 people contradicting each other putting the customer in the middle. And as a pinhead it seems universally more beneficial to just buy a game lightly used after the initial buyer has sorted all the issues out.

I don't want it to be like that. It shouldn't be like that! I want JJP to succeed! I want buying a new machine from them to be better than buying used. Anyway, this isn't a bash JJP post, just trying to point out some objective 3rd party feedback given these situations.

I have had some issues with every NIB pin that I have bought. Sometimes it's a simple as adjusting a switch. Other times whole parts have had to be replaced. So I don't think this is common to just JJP. Stern has had some colossal misses when it comes to QC as well. Seems to happen with all of the companies.

I have a WOZ, bought it NIB from Larry at flipnout pinball. He drove 3 hrs to deliver, brought it in my house, we set it up and worked out any kinks in it. The only issues mine had was the ball trough was stuck and the crystal ball cable was loose. Took a couple of seconds to fix. I think I've had it for 7 months now with zero issues. When you are paying that amount for a machine and there is no discount I expect a little extra. I don't buy for one second that the distro are only making $500 on these games. That's why I went with a distributor that would deliver and set it up.

I realize that many of the early machines had lots of board troubles, that's why I try not to buy many games early on in production. When you buy early, especially from an company that is not proven you will likely have several problems to work through.

I don't usually post on these forums, but I must say that it is a little disconcerting reading about all the reported problems people are having with WOZ pinball machines. I have a fully paid THSE pinball machine on order with JJP. Jack, please tell me that you guys are going to make sure that TH pinball machines are going to be reliable before they ship (even if it means a longer wait for us). I spent a lot of money on that game and I want JJP to succeed and prosper, but I also want to get a machine I don't need to worry about fixing all the time!

One of my best friend's dad was in the new car business. He said never buy a new model the first year it is produced. Let the manufacturer work out the kinks first.

JJP is a new company. They are working the kinks out. I think they have done a great job considering it is their first effort. Were mistakes made? I hope so, that's how people learn. Are they getting better? It appears so. What more can we ask?

I think the WoZ is by far the most complex pinball machine ever built. Now add to the fact that this is their first machine. First ever.

The problem early on should have been expected. I will also say that issues with pinball machines should be expected. There are a thousand moving parts. It is heavy and therefore makes shipping nothing short of brutal. There are tolerances in a pinball machine that are in microns.

I had some issues. JJP stood behind them. They are fixed and I have now played hundreds of games of one of the best pinball machines out there. And for those that don't agree, they should play the later software. It really made a difference when 3.x came out.

Bottom line is that we are seeing this issue with distributors across all sectors. The internet has squeezed margins to a very tight level. I don't see how they can make a lot of money per machine. They need to expect issues. They should expect that certain home owners have never turned a screwdriver. I tell all of my friends that look at my collection and tell them not to get one if they expect perfection. I also tell them to expect to pay annually to keep the thing running (those that are not mechanical at all).

So Jack keep doing you thing. You are making a great product and you are working the issues (including internal processes for addressing them). To us customers? They are still very new. It is in everyone's best interest for JJP to continue to refine and work through their internal processes to make support better. Personally I think their support is already better than their competition.

i would not worry so much. what you are seeing here are a couple of the people that are having issues. what you DON'T see are all the people that are happily playing their machines and haven't posted a "good" review. look at anything that is mass produced and you will generally find more "bad" reviews than good. As a fellow distributor i can say that i have sold about 50 machines or so and have had very few issues. even with those issues i have had great support from the JJP team. issues were diagnosed over the phone /or/ parts were shipped out.

either way, do what you need to do in order to vent your frustration. me personally, i am going to play some more pinball.

Christopher
King Pin Games

Hey Christopher, thanks for your input. It makes me feel a little better about my purchase! I have been in the amusement business as a route technician for over a decade, and I know that having problems with machines straight out of the box is nothing out of the ordinary. I just hope JJP takes their time with TH to make sure they are reliable as possible before they ship!

This is the main reason I will never, ever buy a JJP product. When the owner comes to an online forum and acts like a douche, that is a direct reflection of his business.

Stay off line dude, let your employees discuss things openly in a professional manner. Too many childish responses in my opinion.

We spend tremendous amounts of time (for me it's personal time) working with customers to fix and even train people how to maintain their games. What OP is stating is actually not fact at all. OP Chooses not to support the games he sells. I know as I was a recipient of that non-support after spending north of 10k on a machine from him.

I disagree....At any level, selling any product to the pinball community, being involved is not as easy as it seems.
When customers want us to be a "business" We need every duck in a row.

Product: The best possible. Anything Wrong, will be common knowledge. Like rubber necking for an accident, Human behavior shows that if one looks at a restaurant review, with 500 positives, the 6 negatives are what are read most.
Customers, want, expect, and in a social media world share their expectations of perfection.
Yes, the "for the money I spent, I expect XYZ, is always true"

Service: Regardless of the several businesses I own or have been involved in, the service "litmus test" has been the need for not only the most perfect service, but immediate service.
It has always been, "for the money I spent, I expect XYZ in service, is always true"
I am not disagreeing here, I am referring to expectations.

Goodness, I know how hard Alex, Lloyd, Jack and Jen, and their crew work for customer satisfaction.
I have received myself, but if it isnt perfect, or exactly what a customer expects or wants, Public forums take the minority of issues and magnify it.

In the pinball model here, where service is needed here, sometimes, and rightfully so, full on site
service is needed. However, the cost logistics of a national service team are daunting, and too costly for the volume. We are conditioned by our other purchases in life, and often set standards from this to other purchases.

It is as simple as hearing why I cant provide same day shipping "like Amazon".
While I am a preferred Vendor in an impossible Amazon category, Margins are so tight, I cant expense
staff costs, and add that into price and still be competitive.

None of this is an excuse, but more about our expectations as consumers...our experiences, and
what we feel is best.

Did this Op have issues? Sure. Was it handled maybe as best as possible, I guess not. Should it be
(or anything sold today), held to all levels of standards, and when not perfect, create a sense of drama and negativity? Well Yes and no. Only in the sense, that we gravitate to the minority, and the negative.

Personally, I may not agree with all the business practices of JJP, but what I do agree with is the People behind this are people. Jack, Jen, and the whole staff, pour their heart into this project and company. Yes, it is their choice, and it is for money as it is a business. But they do so from their heart, with a passion for their customers.

Id rather share my gratitude for all they have done, then to share the smaller points of errors.
We are all better off with the fact a Pinball company has come into existence to bring us more Toys. Yes, Toys.

Address the Ops issues only.

Since those at JJP are watching this, please allow me at this time again for a Huge Public Thank You, for all you have done, all you will do, and all the Joy your hard work has brought me personally, my family, and all those enjoying WOZ. A round of applause with my personal thanks, and
as I see the Holidays.....The Spirit of Goodwill and all it means to Those at JJP, and all at pinside.
Lets find a way to make this more positive.

All vendors are people too.

(please excuse my soap box, HTT, attitude)

Is it now possible for JJP to post videos the common WOZ repairs somewhere? This will help the people who never worked on a pinball before as they do have to learn the lingo. With them seeing what they need to do also aids in them repairing it correctly.

Larry has stated this is essentially a hobby for him and he likes to help out. Believe me, he's not making out like you think on these he just enjoys helping others and the business is literally just him. There is a reason why people aren't lining up trying to sell pins for everyone, it's a rough low margin business unless you are buying used, refurb, and sell high (like with console games).

The fact of the matter is that the margin is not there for distributors. It's set up in some old school archaic relic fashion from the 80s/90s and there is no way it should exist the way it does right now. The business models are still something out of a time warp. Trying to find "who" the distributors are in each region still involves talking to someone through someone, etc...I mean, even Brady had a definitive list for each area on their website, Betson, etc...it's still a very old school out of date process.

This, I agree.

Perhaps in the future, often because issues are known much later, all the hard work from Lloyd and Alex, the work your staff did, the work individuals have done, could be in a container a bit better then posts.

Just that link alone, might save a great deal of time and angst.

I know I start with a search first for an issue. But for the novice, I one place to look in the
easiest of formats, might be a good idea.

While I dont know you personally, op, and all I know is in this thread, perhaps a solution
to your needs, your customer needs, and JJP, can be reached in private.

Sadly, it really is about your issues, and this spills into the community as a whole.

I am not judging or even implying this is wrong, I am referring to the vertical issues of potential customers for JJP and any work you and your company do.

Its the bandwagon of a witch hunt, when it seems to start, takes the heart out of people.

I would hope all we all want is the same thing.

Finding a way to achieve this for the positive, is more my opinion, and as the other threads going on,
I would hope a better, less, "accident on the side of the road" approach can be taken.

None of us enjoy the traffic, complain about the traffic, but contribute by slowing down and looking ourselves....human nature.

But it is a Beautiful Sunday Everywhere....Kumbaya.....maybe one thread can move into a positive solution... The issues have been shared, the accident has been removed from the highway, (maybe not gone), and I truly hope that this thread can be removed from the "angst" pile from both parties,
so you may find an answer, a solution, and well earned peace and rest for both.....

I know both parties work their asses off, and share the same good values as people.

I agree that most of the margins suck and are not worth the effort. Wasn't trying to imply that any of these people are makng a killing selling pinball. Just that I do think the margins for JJP sales are a lot better than stern sales. Don't know that for sure but I can't see how they would not be. I purchase from Larry because I trust him, plus like you said, he does it because he enjoys it. That's a huge plus for me.

From what I have delt with personally and what I have heard from others that own WOZ JJP has done a pretty good job dealing with the issues. Yes, they need to prevent these before shipping going forward but there will always be some problems. If you are someone that can not be walked through a diagnostic or repair on the phone you probably should not own a pinball machine. Skype is also great for repairs, you can show them what you are seeing and they can see what you are doing.

Simple fact is pinball machine need repairs. If you can't do them with some guidance you better at the least have a local contact that can work on them for a fee for you. If not you probably should avoid this hobby. I can understand why people get pissed when an 8K toy stops working but this hobby is unique and you have to be able to do some of the stuff yourself.

I think you're dead wrong here bro. I don't care what anyone says, you gotta love it when the owner of the company himself comes into a thread, jumps into the fire and answers everyone's questions. To me, that's the EXACT reason why you want to do business with JJP. This guy sincerely cares.

On top of that, not only has his employees stepped up to the plate, but his own daughter came in and responded and took care of an issue. THAT is a company AND family that cares. That's who you should want to do business with my friend.

OMG, let me tell you first hand brothah, I saw and played THLE at the Automated store in Orange CT. yesterday and it is absolutely...AWESOME!!! It plays like a beast and is built like a tank! You'll have a perfect machine that you can be proud to own and your family and friends will enjoy for years to come. No regrets for sure. Personally, TH may just become the new GOAT pin. Several were expressing the same sentiments yesterday.

So congrats to you on owning such an unbelievable piece of pinball technology and thanks to JJP and Jack himself for bringing TH to the party and personally walking everyone through the game.

People stepping on others is too common nowadays in this hobby. Wish it would stop.

Well said from a great guy and businessman. Art straight up gets it and if you've ever been lucky enough to meet and have a convo with him, you know how intelligent he is and what a great businessman he is as well. You can take what he says to the bank!

Additionally, NOTHING in life is perfect. Just look in the mirror. So say what you will about JJP and some bad things that happened with some light boards, WOZ is a killer game and amazing machine (Definitely the most gorgeous machine ever made) that has changed pinball forever and took it to a whole new level and has set a new standard within the industry. JJP is pushing the envelope here and other companies are following suit. This is great for everyone.

So I'd just like to personally say thank you to Jack and the entire JJP team for going WAYYYY out on the limb to design, create and release a game that was so far advanced and beyond what anyone has ever imagined a pinball machine could be. WOZ is straight up pin bliss in every way, shape, form and sense of the word! What a way to start your company. I mean, WOZ for your companies first pin!? WOWOW!!!! WOZ isn't just a home run, it's a GRAND SLAM! And you wanna what's really crazy and beyond amazing? Dare I say it, but The Hobbit is...EVEN BETTER!!! WTG JJP!!!