(Topic ID: 165193)

11 EM games mini pinraid - worth anything?


By DEN

2 years ago



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  • 95 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by NicoVolta
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    There are 95 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I hate center flipper pop bumper games. Someone offered you 1200 Kroner for it? Is that a lot? If it's 1200 US you should take it in a heartbeat.

    Sadly, $1200 DKK is only about $180 USD.

    http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1200&From=DKK&To=USD

    #52 2 years ago

    I've been looking for a Scuba for a while - nice find!

    #53 2 years ago

    "Two million rupiah!"

    ...actually, that's even less.

    #54 2 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    They're different from the normal. I think there's room for all. I know Spanish Eyes is a lot of fun. It's mesmerizing and almost magical when the ball goes down into the center pop bounces around awhile and then comes back onto the playfield. It's like a lazarus but it happens more often.
    Who should say what something this rare is worth? I'm not saying it should be worth more but if there's a buyer as passionate as Nico it would probably be a good deal to take the offer.

    Well I mean, there's "what it's worth to me" and "What it's worth." I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to suggest Freedom Weird Edition is worth anything close - in the actual financial sense, not warm fuzzies - to ACTUAL valuable EMs like Fireaball, Mata Hari, Captain Fantastic.

    But yeah if you want a center pop Freedom, by all means hunt one down. I've never actually seen one in person so they can't be that easy to find.

    #55 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to suggest Freedom Weird Edition is worth anything close - in the actual financial sense, not warm fuzzies - to ACTUAL valuable EMs like Fireaball, Mata Hari, Captain Fantastic.

    You'd be surprised what goes in the EM community. Nothing surprises me anymore. I think it's a cool incentive and wouldn't be surprised that the prototype goes for more.

    I got addicted to Spanish Eyes at York last year and played like 16 games in a row on it until I finally beat my best score I set on it earlier.

    Center pop bumpers, how about center twin autoshooters? (with tiny flippers)

    image-28_(resized).jpg

    #56 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Well I mean, there's "what it's worth to me" and "What it's worth." I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to suggest Freedom Weird Edition is worth anything close - in the actual financial sense, not warm fuzzies - to ACTUAL valuable EMs like Fireaball, Mata Hari, Captain Fantastic.

    Yes, but the market isn't linear. Experienced collectors and seekers of high-end restorations are always looking for something special.

    As far as the Captain Fantastics of the world are concerned... I'm not sure how much staying power they have. Great artwork, but the gameplay is meh and a LOT of them were produced.

    Anyway, not to hijack the OP... let us know what you decide to do.

    #57 2 years ago

    Just to bee clear ive been offerd 1000euro from germany. Think its about 1200usd. Also wont write it myself. But also got a close to that offer from whiters here. They are weclome to write there offer open here.
    Also if wanna buy more ems at onse, also an option

    #58 2 years ago
    Quoted from NicoVolta:

    Whoa... I was at a pinball party this evening and Xerico just informed me about this thread... "You didn't hear about it?"
    NOPE! *gasp*
    Hi DEN. What you've got there is, in my *opinion*, the most desirable EM of them all. Both in terms of play and collectability (collectibility?). The main reason why....?
    Norm Clark.
    The guy was a WIZARD of innovation from the start of his career and never quit. His first game was Williams King Pin in 1962... a novel game with four flippers in an unusual layout w/center kicker. King Pin is (rightly) considered one of the very best of the "reverse wedgeheads" from that era along with River Boat, which he also designed. Other innovations followed:
    1964 - Stop N' Go with reverse flippers and unique stop/go scoring
    1966 - 8-Ball - 2-player middle-pop game
    1966 - A-Go-Go - first game with roulette captive ball spinner (which he invented)
    1967 - Magic City - 1-player middle-pop game
    1968 - Cue-T/Miss-O - 1-player middle-pop games w/AAB variant
    1970 - Jive Time w/huge backbox spinner
    1971 - Doodle Bug w/innovative captive ball scoring and nonstop action
    1972 - Spanish Eyes - First middle-pop game w/3" flippers
    1972 - Fan-Tas-Tic - First 4-player middle-pop game
    1973 - Travel Time - unique time-based play
    1974 - Norm Clark modifies some Bow and Arrow machines with a new little thing called "solid state technology"
    ...as well as having designed many beloved games in-between such as Apollo, Pit Stop, Klondike, Gulfstream, etc.
    If you look at pinball history, you will see that every middle-pop game since the woodrail era (with the exception of Safari which doesn't have a full-strength bumper) was designed by Norm Clark. Essentially, he is responsible for bringing back middle-pop games and making them fun again. Norm Clark is, without question, THE middle-pop guy.
    Knowing this... we continue...
    In 1975, Norm Clark joined Bally as head of the design department. The next game in production was for the American bicentennial celebration in 1976... hence "Freedom". The IPDB states that Freedom was "designed by George Christian under the guidance of Norm Clark". However, if you look at the actual layout of the Freedom prototype you will notice that...
    ...it is a middle-pop game.
    ...it has flipper drains and an identical stance to Spanish Eyes.
    ...it has a central spinner randomizing feature similar to Fan-Tas-Tic/Jive Time.
    ...George Christian, at the time, was a new hire with no previous experience.
    The evidence rather strongly indicates the Freedom prototype is predominantly a Norm Clark design. But how much was designed by George? How much by Norm? Let's explore a bit further.
    At the time, Bally was on a hot streak with a hot new designer: Greg Kmiec. He was hard at work in the next room and had recently designed the first blockbuster pinball machine with over 10,000 produced: Wizard! Followed by another huge hit: Bow and Arrow. Around the time Norm and George joined the team... Kmiec was busy working on his next big hit: Old Chicago.
    Now, if you look at Old Chicago's layout, it has a spinner in the upper left... same location as Freedom. And a row of five drop targets on the side... also similar to Freedom. It could be that just as entertainment design houses tend to move in waves (as with movies and music), so too with pinball. And thus, the legacy of Norm Clark and his fondness for middle-pops, combined with the "new Bally house energy" contributed by Kmiec... all came together at just right time.
    For his part, George might have placed the three asymmetrical pops which seems to be the only consistently identifiable element in his designs. But it's hard to know for sure. I think he was still learning the ropes. Freedom looks an awful lot like Fan-Tas-Tic and doesn't resemble anything else George went on to design. If anything, Freedom is closer Kmiec's general style... reference Old Chicago, Captain Fantastic, especially Night Rider which was designed around the same time.
    OK... let's move on. Of Norm's middle-pop games, the Freedom prototype is the only one to utilize Bally hardware. Which, at the time, was hitting the sweet spot. The Wizard!-era delivered huge backglasses, DC rectification, that sexy curved top rail, and an overall style which would eventually lead to the blockbuster "Class of '81" golden era. The chimes also sounded a helluva lot better than Williams.
    BUT THERE BE TROUBLE!
    As we know, only 100 Freedom prototypes were ever built. Primarily because European distributors didn't "get" the middle-pop thing. They demanded a redesign... and Bally caved in order to sell more units. Which essentially destroyed its fundamental figure-8 geometry and wide shot stance (not to mention the unpredictable fun of the middle-pop).
    Isn't it ironic that a game named "Freedom" of all things, with an over-the-top American theme, gets shut down by fussy Europeans from which Americans came in the first place? I imagine a snooty Frenchman in a beret... "zis meedle-pop bumper... tut tut... no no no... zees will not do at all. Not at all. Just make eet like all ze others. Do eet now... or you... and your MEEDLE-POP BUMPER... can sweem back to America."
    LOL and thus here we are today.
    A lot of rare games and prototypes were made in low quantities because they weren't very good, but this one is definitely an exception. It really is that special. The Freedom prototype is Norm's last, and best, middle-pop game... deployed on the best, and last, Bally EM platform... in its original unmolested form... having escaped with its "Freedom" intact... with a touch of Kmiec's "house energy" in full swing... and is the single best-playing EM I have ever found. The layout is wide, fast, and fun and will teach you new flipper skills in the process. Enough that I think every serious player or collector should have at least one middle-pop in their stable (Fan-Tas-Tic would be the obvious alternative since it offers a similar layout and relatively high production count... can still be had affordably).
    Frankly, I'd like to see a company offer Freedom conversions for non-prototypes. Seems doable. Playfield airbrushing, a few new holes, an extra pop mech... why not?
    So, DEN... if you are not an EM-guy... if you don't enjoy disassembling steppers and relays and rebuilding things by hand... if you don't plan to give this special game a head-to-toe restoration... I suggest passing it on to someone who will do so and put it in front of people who will play it and be entertained by its history. Who knows, since yours is in Europe, maybe that very game was the one which set everyone off? :p
    And yes, I'd also very much like to own it and restore it.

    YAASSSSS!!!

    Love the outspoken sanity. What a well-written, educational, and entertaining read.

    #59 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    Just to bee clear ive been offerd 1000euro from germany. Think its about 1200usd. Also wont write it myself. But also got a close to that offer from whiters here. They are weclome to write there offer open here.
    Also if wanna buy more ems at onse, also an option

    Sell. Now. Before the guy sobers up.

    #60 2 years ago

    So I guess this thread has turned into an open auction.

    2 weeks later
    #62 2 years ago

    So... any news on the fate of Freedom? Just curious.

    #63 2 years ago

    No nothing.
    Had not anytime to look at it.

    #64 2 years ago

    The rest og pins.
    I had a guy over uesterday.
    He looked at scoober and jumpjack gottlieb, he did something inside cabinet and everything start turning and ressettimg. Dint know what.
    Then hee "manually" reset my space mission and we started playing the game. Its nice. Needs cleaning and rubber. Both popbumpers doesent work oterthen that it playes well.

    Freedom ss got new rubber. Cleaned. Alltek boards. Playes awesome.

    I kept freedom em freedom ss and space mission. ALL the other pins git sold yesterday to a great friend.

    He loves the fast draw. Scober. Jumpjack and outerspace gittlieb line up. Same cabinets. Those 4 looks great together.

    Rest pins he will turn them to tabels. Cut the legs and put in lights.

    Freedom EM is standing in the corner

    #65 2 years ago

    I love the ballsave at 1:40

    #66 2 years ago

    Got incredible offer on freedom EM. Its sold. Also space mission is gone.

    Now i only have a freedom SS. Need a file pictute of the backglass. Its missing. Would bee great to print it out.

    Thanks for all the help guys and also for the info

    #67 2 years ago

    That's good... it is a nice game. Did it go to another Pinsider? Would love to see the restoration process if they intend to share it!

    #68 2 years ago
    Quoted from NicoVolta:

    Would love to see the restoration process if they intend to share it!

    Agreed.

    #69 2 years ago

    Nice find. All of them can be fixed and restored. everyone is a keeper .,Good for you !

    If offered I also would have bought the lot. but then again I have an addiction.....

    Great find
    Enjoy

    Sir Brian of Ortonville

    #70 2 years ago

    Went to a local american car collector, he fell in love with the theme, american flag, presidents, eagle, and so on.
    So much love with all americana.
    He took freedom spacemission and gorgar.
    Also a bally pin to use for spareparts, the green one with casino theme, it looked like new under the playfield.
    I couldent wait to get it all home and restore em.
    He wants all to look old used and original, will only replace only nesesery parts.
    Hee will invite me when its finished, i will take some pics.

    #71 2 years ago

    Reading all the center pop love here... Is Spanish Eyes a fun game? Friend of friend has one in a garage.. bad cab repaint (orange/black) but the BG and playfield look good. Unknown mechanicals but appears unmolested. Play-wise, is it worth grabbing? What's a decent one go for? Figure I can buy from him and resell if I don't like it, but want to give him a fair price while not screwing myself

    #72 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    Went to a local american car collector, he fell in love with the theme, american flag, presidents, eagle, and so on.
    So much love with all americana.
    He took freedom spacemission and gorgar.
    Also a bally pin to use for spareparts, the green one with casino theme, it looked like new under the playfield.
    I couldent wait to get it all home and restore em.
    He wants all to look old used and original, will only replace only nesesery parts.
    Hee will invite me when its finished, i will take some pics.

    LOL just for the theme? How funny... and the regular Freedom is so easy to find. Does he even know what he has with the middle-pop version? Kind of a shame not to restore it for future generations. The playfield is so worn already. At least put a new ball in it!

    Quoted from metallik:

    Reading all the center pop love here... Is Spanish Eyes a fun game? Friend of friend has one in a garage.. bad cab repaint (orange/black) but the BG and playfield look good. Unknown mechanicals but appears unmolested. Play-wise, is it worth grabbing? What's a decent one go for? Figure I can buy from him and resell if I don't like it, but want to give him a fair price while not screwing myself

    Spanish eyes is blazing fast and I love the unusual artwork. Excellent choice for complementing a collection with something fun and different (looks-wise, too).

    #73 2 years ago

    I showed him where to get new parts.
    He wants new bal rubberset and bulbs. Rest will be polished up.

    Its his first pin.

    Told him alittle about the rarety, he also liked that story but dident show much exitment about it.

    He came to buy his first pin gorgar and saw all 3 together and bought them plus a sparepart em.

    I also have another em with cracked backglass under transport, call it crocodile pin. Its got a big croc plastic at upper right corner and has a metal arm that can cone out and grab the ball at popbumper area. Anyone knows that em? Its a bally.

    #74 2 years ago

    That must be a Bally Nip-it

    #75 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    He wants new bal rubberset and bulbs. Rest will be polished up.
    Its his first pin.
    Told him alittle about the rarety, he also liked that story but dident show much exitment about it.

    *heart-sinks*

    Quoted from DEN:

    I also have another em with cracked backglass under transport, call it crocodile pin. Its got a big croc plastic at upper right corner and has a metal arm that can cone out and grab the ball at popbumper area. Anyone knows that em? Its a bally.

    Quoted from koen12344:

    That must be a Bally Nip-it

    Yup.

    http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1680

    #76 2 years ago

    Exactley thatone

    #77 2 years ago

    Shame the backglass is broken, I love the artwork on that machine

    #78 2 years ago

    To all EM gods in here.
    Just got two pics of an EM pin.
    Guy tells me its an german pin. Named firecracker, german writting on backglass.
    He will thriw it out if i dont pick it up.
    Its a 50km ride for me. Anybody knows this pin? Any fun? Worth the ride?
    Pin han been at his spareroom for 15 years. Dusty and not working.

    image (resized).png

    image (resized).png

    #79 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    To all EM gods in here.
    Just got two pics of an EM pin.
    Guy tells me its an german pin. Named firecracker, german writting on backglass.
    He will thriw it out if i dont pick it up.
    Its a 50km ride for me. Anybody knows this pin? Any fun? Worth the ride?
    Pin han been at his spareroom for 15 years. Dusty and not working.

    That's a Bally Firecracker.

    They made a special version for Germany (with German writing on it)

    any pin for free is good. Go get it.

    rd

    #80 2 years ago

    I own a German Firecracker too (and I am in the USA!). Re-import from Pachinko Palace.

    Not a great game but definitely worth Saving!

    Also, you mention "Bally, Green one with Casino theme" Sounds like that was an Odds and Evens (similar to Monte Carlo). That would be good for parts as it is very similar age to Firecracker.

    #81 2 years ago

    Free = worth your time if you can find room for it (unless it is covered in mold or termites or mice).

    #82 2 years ago

    Dont know about the mise and termites
    Only got these two pics.
    A Bally is totally worth saving.
    Wierd about german version

    #83 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    Dont know about the mise and termites
    Only got these two pics.
    A Bally is totally worth saving.
    Wierd about german version

    They made German versions of Fireball and Four Million BC too.

    I had both of them in my house here in NZ.

    rd

    #84 2 years ago

    Well got the pin. Its in nice condition. Used as tabel ik livingroom over 10 years. No rats inside.

    BUT everything on pf is also in german, not only the backglass. Bummerrrrr!!!!

    #85 2 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    I own a German Firecracker too (and I am in the USA!). Re-import from Pachinko Palace.
    Not a great game but definitely worth Saving!
    Also, you mention "Bally, Green one with Casino theme" Sounds like that was an Odds and Evens (similar to Monte Carlo). That would be good for parts as it is very similar age to Firecracker.

    I used to have a Firecracker re-import from Germany (with english on the playfield) that I also got from Pachinco Palace back in the 1980's.
    Fun game. Has a semi random scoring feature with a light show when the ball goes into a kick-out hole.

    #86 2 years ago
    Quoted from girloveswaffles:

    I used to have a Firecracker re-import from Germany (with english on the playfield) that I also got from Pachinco Palace back in the 1980's.
    Fun game. Has a semi random scoring feature with a light show when the ball goes into a kick-out hole.

    I have a Firecracker en route from Los Angeles now. Never played one before, looking forward to it arriving!

    rd

    #87 2 years ago

    Allow me to play the "Here's the one I played at Arcade Expo" card again ...
    Firecracker (resized).jpg

    #88 2 years ago

    Lookes nice.
    Looking forward to put it together and turn the game on.
    Hope it works. BUT inreally doubt it

    #89 2 years ago
    Quoted from DEN:

    Lookes nice.
    Looking forward to put it together and turn the game on.
    Hope it works. BUT inreally doubt it

    All part of the hobby. If it don't work, fix it up. Mine didn't work when I got it, but it wasn't terribly hard to get it going, and I knew little about EM's back when I got it.

    #90 2 years ago
    Quoted from girloveswaffles:

    Allow me to play the "Here's the one I played at Arcade Expo" card again ...

    Man, that place has everything.

    Quoted from girloveswaffles:

    All part of the hobby. If it don't work, fix it up. Mine didn't work when I got it, but it wasn't terribly hard to get it going, and I knew little about EM's back when I got it.

    Same.

    #91 2 years ago

    Lots of great games there. Outer Space is a game you don't see much. What a GREAT GAME.

    #92 2 years ago
    Quoted from RyanClaytor:

    Man, that place has everything.

    Almost, but not Swinger / Fun Fest or Paul Bunyan. Still haven't seen one of them yet anywhere (who knows, maybe that $900 Swinger is still for sale in Pleasant Hill on Craig's list...)

    #93 2 years ago

    Pacific Pinball Museum in Alameda CA,
    now has my former BLY Freedom EM Proto pin,
    along with (just as rare) BLY Black Jack EM pin.
    I am keeping the BLY Mata Hari EM pin.

    #94 2 years ago

    I'll be visiting the PPM at the end of this month. I'm sure your games won't be ready for prime time by then, but it is good to know they'll have a Freedom prototype in the inventory. I gush about that game a lot but it really is special... has a neat story and is super fun to play.

    Arcade Expo in Banning also has one. Needs to have "the full rebuild" done to it. Pretty neat how you can play it side-by-side with the mass-produced version.

    4 weeks later
    #95 2 years ago

    BTW, I just created a new middle-pop club thread with further analysis and comparisons with other games if you'd like to follow...

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/join-the-middle-pop-club

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