10k motor coil getting stuck on

Hi all

New at this EM repair and stuck!!

I am restoring a 1957 Gottlieb world champ and after the transplant to the new playfield my 10k motor coil is getting stuck on.
The game was fully functional before (except for a 100 000 Sticky motor coil that wouldn’t return to the zero Position on start up) and the only coils I replaced was for the 4 pop bumpers 2 sling shots and the 2 flippers with original parts from PR

With the game plugged in: When I remove the left hand side jones plug just under the 0-9 motor it seems to cure the problem. With the plug OFF I’ve then checked all the scoring mechanisms on the playfield and they seem to score correctly and light the necessary light bulbs. The 10k motor seems to work correctly moving only when prompted
Sling shots And pop bumpers also work correctly
But when I return the Jones plug to its Socket I’m back to square one with the 10k coil going crazy and making horrible sounds
And YES I have the schematics but they still remain a bit of a mystery to me

Please help

#2 2 years ago

???

pins4u

Pinside apprentice

Gaborone

3y 34,400 1,037

Learning how to read the schematics and translate that information to the various switches and relays is going to be VITAL if you ever want to have success repairing EM's.

It's not "rocket surgery" - it just takes some research and patience. Look on YouTube for many helpful videos on EM's.

#3 2 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
YES I have the schematics but they still remain a bit of a mystery to me

Check out Clay's excellent primer: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#schematic

#4 2 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

I assume you mean one of the steppers in the back box when you say 10k motor. Probably you have a stuck playfield switch.

#5 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from HowardR:
I assume you mean one of the steppers in the back box when you say 10k motor. Probably you have a stuck playfield switch.

Hi Howard Thank you for your response yes the stepper unit at the back The 10 000 unit
And I have checked all the switches on the playfield

#6 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from currieddog:
Check out Clay's excellent primer: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#schematic

Hi curriedog thank you I will check it out

#7 2 years ago

AAP

AndrewP

Pinside+ Frequent

Andover, MA

3y 51,550 285 6

Looking near that jones plug:

If I had to make a wild guess, I would wonder if the 0-9 (ones) unit is designed to score 10,000 points when advanced?

If so, I would check the wiper positions on the unit (unlikely) then the rollover buttons on the playfield (more likely) that advance the 1-10 to see if one is stuck down or possible shorted.

The other way to state this is: when jones is unplugged, what on the playfield DOESN’T work? Isolate your search to only those switches, because one is stuck on when you plug the jones back in.

#8 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from AndrewP:
Looking near that jones plug:
If I had to make a wild guess, I would wonder if the 0-9 (ones) unit is designed to score 10,000 points when advanced?
If so, I would check the wiper positions on the unit (unlikely) then the rollover buttons on the playfield (more likely) that advance the 1-10 to see if one is stuck down or possible shorted.
The other way to state this is: when jones is unplugged, what on the playfield DOESN’T work? Isolate your search to only those switches, because one is stuck on when you plug the jones back in.

Hey Andrew thank you so much for your response

Once the jones plug is out I have 2 switches and one rollover switch ( and the light bulb for the RO switch )not working
I have checked clearance on the contacts and they look fine
It may well be the case that they are shorted I will trace the wires that lead to the switches

And yes I think the 0-9 unit moves in 10 thousand increments And the Bakelite contacts seem good with good contacts on the fingers

Andrew am I correct in then saying once the jones plug is out that all the functions on the playfield should be working correctly ?

Thanks again Andrew

#9 2 years ago

AAP

AndrewP

Pinside+ Frequent

Andover, MA

3y 51,550 285 6

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
am I correct in then saying once the jones plug is out that all the functions on the playfield should be working correctly?

No. But if the problem disappears when this plug is out, it stands to reason the problem exists only when the plug is in. So, if when you unplug it, you disable two switches and a rollover, it stands to reason that when you plug it in, you enable those three, and one of them could be the cause of the issue.

This is just a theory. At least now your search is narrow and you can see if I am right or wrong in a matter of minutes.

I am wondering if when you replaced the pop bumpers, you accidentally smashed one of these other switches with your elbow. I would plug it all back in and physically move these switches from underneath and the wires near them to see if I could get a reaction. Check the switch blades, the solder points, and any stray wireforms or missing insulation.

#10 2 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

What is the 10,000 relay (N) doing when this happens?

#11 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from AndrewP:
No. But if the problem disappears when this plug is out, it stands to reason the problem exists only when the plug is in. So, if when you unplug it, you disable two switches and a rollover, it stands to reason that when you plug it in, you enable those three, and one of them could be the cause of the issue.
This is just a theory. At least now your search is narrow and you can see if I am right or wrong in a matter of minutes.
I am wondering if when you replaced the pop bumpers, you accidentally smashed one of these other switches with your elbow. I would plug it all back in and physically move these switches from underneath and the wires near them to see if I could get a reaction. Check the switch blades, the solder points, and any stray wireforms or missing insulation.

Good morning

I will check all of those and post results

#12 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from HowardR:
What is the 10,000 relay (N) doing when this happens?

Morning Howard

I suspect you are asking what the 10k is doing with the jones plug out ?

If yes it scores and functions properly

#13 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
Morning Howard
I suspect you are asking what the 10k is doing with the jones plug out ?
If yes it scores and functions properly

Also did you receive my mail ?

#14 2 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
But when I return the Jones plug to its Socket I’m back to square one with the 10k coil going crazy and making horrible sounds

Quoted from HowardR:
What is the 10,000 relay (N) doing when this happens?

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
I suspect you are asking what the 10k is doing with the jones plug out ?

World Champ has a 10k stepper and and a 10k relay. What is the 10k relay doing when the 10k stepper is "going crazy"?

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
Also did you receive my mail ?

Yes, thanks.

#15 2 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Reply from OP @bambam1000:

So I suspect the 10 000 relay is the N relay on the schematics
With the jones plug in it locks in and subsequently the 10 000 motor and coil go crazy

With the jones plug out the N relay is dormant
And I have checked the N relays ohms reading and it seems close to the original Spec

#16 2 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
What is the 10,000 relay (N) doing when this happens?

OP
Quoted from BamBam1000:
it locks in

If you can't see which one(s) of these indicated switches is causing that, put slips of paper in the them to isolate the cause.

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#17 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from HowardR:
If you can't see which one(s) of these indicated switches is causing that, put slips of paper in the them to isolate the cause.[quoted image]

Ok I will definitely try that first thing in the morning Howard
Especially on the flip flop switch of the 10 000 motor
The kicking rubber switches are open and only activated when the ball touches them on the playfield

#18 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from HowardR:
If you can't see which one(s) of these indicated switches is causing that, put slips of paper in the them to isolate the cause.[quoted image]

No luck Howard
Isolated those switches and the 10 000 coil is still locking in
I’ve gone through the game with a fine tooth comb
Yes I’m a novice but I’m starting to loose hope

#19 2 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

there's always the possibility you have a short. Could be a solder drip you can't see easily on the side of a switch stack, a wire chaffed and touching something it shouldn't, etc.

easy thing is to look at the schem for the N relay and stick paper between the switch contacts for anything that can power the N relay ... so that's C, D, N, G, A, B, and E relay switches. You don't have to do them all, but if you pick some and the N relay stays powered, keep going and leave the paper in in case you have multiple issues.

once the N relay stops powering, yank out the paper one at a time and see what causes the N relay to power.

assumption is none of the C, D, or G relays are powered, since that would cause the N to power. If one of them is powered, keep paper in the appropriate switch so you don't hold the 10K unit solenoid powered and see why the trouble-maker relay is staying powered.

#20 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member

Quoted from baldtwit:
there's always the possibility you have a short. Could be a solder drip you can't see easily on the side of a switch stack, a wire chaffed and touching something it shouldn't, etc.
easy thing is to look at the schem for the N relay and stick paper between the switch contacts for anything that can power the N relay ... so that's C, D, N, G, A, B, and E relay switches. You don't have to do them all, but if you pick some and the N relay stays powered, keep going and leave the paper in in case you have multiple issues.
once the N relay stops powering, yank out the paper one at a time and see what causes the N relay to power.
assumption is none of the C, D, or G relays are powered, since that would cause the N to power. If one of them is powered, keep paper in the appropriate switch so you don't hold the 10K unit solenoid powered and see why the trouble-maker relay is staying powered.

Thank you Howard
I’m on that and I will let you know how she gets on

#21 2 years ago

???

BamBam1000

Inactive member