(Topic ID: 276103)

100,000 point reset coil locked on, won't start game


By desertT1

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 11 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by desertT1
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 4 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

EC2B30E8-DCC0-4BFC-9C17-81DB8DFC47A5 (resized).jpeg
552AB56A-734D-4101-B262-05AA02431EB9 (resized).jpeg
BCC1E81D-4C11-44B9-9AFF-36FF71D3F399 (resized).jpeg
Golden Bells Schematic.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 4 months ago

I have a 1959 Williams Golden Bells that won't start a game. I've gone through and cleaned all the switches, steppers, and wipers, and now am going through the checklist of issues. This one is happening when you first plug the game in and turn it on/try to start a game. The 100k point reset coil locks on. The switch is clean, and giving 0.9 ohms when I measure it. That is in H6-K6 of the schematic. The green-white wire that is tied to the coil on the score motor is in A23. It is the outermost switch on the Index switch stack.

The way I see it, the index stack is supposed to sit in the notch of the cam and when that is happening the switch to the reset coil is closed. So that must mean that something else breaks the circuit to that coil correct? A helpful pinsider pointed to F3 where it says 100,000 S.U. DISC AT ZERO. That's where the wiper sits as far as I can tell because that's where it is when the switch is closed, which it is. That leads to the reset relay. If I trigger that manually the score motor spins a little and then whole game shuts off.

Any help here would be great. I can post pics as needed.

Golden Bells Schematic.pdf
#2 4 months ago

Is the start relay latching (it's a trip/latch relay)? That stops the reset coil from pulling.

How about the reset relay? Ever kicking on by itself?

#3 4 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

Is the start relay tripping (it's a trip/latch relay)? That stops the reset coil from pulling.

When I just tested, the trip relay fires and then the 100k coil locks on. Sorry for the wonky angle. Hard to get in there and be able to have everything in frame.
BCC1E81D-4C11-44B9-9AFF-36FF71D3F399 (resized).jpeg

#4 4 months ago

Are your plugs seated fully?

Also, sorry for the mistake in the above, I edited it, but not before you had started to respond. The one that needs to move is the latch relay.

Since that's not... let's look there. But stuff that's not plugged properly will cause weird weird stuff to happen.

#5 4 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

Are your plugs seated fully?
Also, sorry for the mistake in the above, I edited it, but not before you had started to respond. The one that needs to move is the latch relay.
Since that's not... let's look there. But stuff that's not plugged properly will cause weird weird stuff to happen.

There are two plugs in the back of the cab and two in the head. I’ve reseated the cab ones a few times over this attempt and just pulled and reseated the ones in the head and get the same result.

I’m not very good at following startup sequences. Is the trip relay supposed to fire every time and then the latch does later in the sequence?

Would it be related to anything that if I manually trigger the reset relay everything just shuts off?

#6 4 months ago
Quoted from desertT1:

Would it be related to anything that if I manually trigger the reset relay everything just shuts off?

Well, sorta.

As with any problem in an EM, the sequence itself doesn't matter all that much, it's all cause and effect.

So when troubleshooting, I always look at the coil or motor that should be moving and work backwards.

In this case, yes, the trip should happen immediately, then when the reset relay kicks on, the latch happens and the reset for 100k stops.

So the problem is the 100,000 unit is not at zero. At least that's what it sounds like to me. Alternatively, one of your motor switches is dirty. Which one? I'm not sure since I can't see the schematic too clearly, maybe sw 4?

#7 4 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

Well, sorta.
As with any problem in an EM, the sequence itself doesn't matter all that much, it's all cause and effect.
So when troubleshooting, I always look at the coil or motor that should be moving and work backwards.
In this case, yes, the trip should happen immediately, then when the reset relay kicks on, the latch happens and the reset for 100k stops.
So the problem is the 100,000 unit is not at zero. At least that's what it sounds like to me. Alternatively, one of your motor switches is dirty. Which one? I'm not sure since I can't see the schematic too clearly, maybe sw 4?

It’s blurry for sure as a preview through pinside, but is a PDF so it should be clearer if downloaded. If not let me know and I’ll try to get it posted in a better way.

Here are the two units that I think are at least a part of the equation. The first is the zero switch for the 100k unit. The next is the back side of the 100k unit. One of these wipers is tied to the blue-white wire that is shown at F4 and triggers the reset relay when the wiper says 100k is at zero. Not sure which wiper it is yet though. About to take it apart again so I can trace that wire and see what dot it goes to.

EC2B30E8-DCC0-4BFC-9C17-81DB8DFC47A5 (resized).jpeg552AB56A-734D-4101-B262-05AA02431EB9 (resized).jpeg

#8 4 months ago

That switch in the first picture, if the label is to be believed, allows the 10k unit to reset. Not part of the issue. The second pic appears to show the unit not on zero position. The interior wiper would never be between the to large conductive surfaces at rest, I wouldn't imagine.

#9 4 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

That switch in the first picture, if the label is to be believed, allows the 10k unit to reset. Not part of the issue. The second pic appears to show the unit not on zero position. The interior wiper would never be between the to large conductive surfaces at rest, I wouldn't imagine.

I found the issue. The bakelite portion of the wiper assy is held in with 4 screws near the center of the piece. The holes are probably twice as big as the screws are so there is a lot of slop. With those being near the center and the wipers being further out things can get really out of whack. I found the dot that ties to zero and made that be in the center of where the wiper would be and then tightened the screws. Fired right up.

So now I have a bunch of other issues like the lights all going out and only barely making a blip every time a coil fires. Then there’s the advance switch (not a pop bumper) that isn’t registering while the other one does. Then there is the pop that doesn’t register/fire and the other two do. But, at least it’s alive.

Thanks Nick

#10 4 months ago
Quoted from desertT1:

The holes are probably twice as big as the screws are so there is a lot of slop.

That's to allow for side-to-side adjustment. Good work.

Quoted from desertT1:

So now I have a bunch of other issues like the lights all going out and only barely making a blip every time a coil fires

Tilt relay might be a good place to start, since all the bulbs (controlled) run through one switch there.

Quoted from desertT1:

Then there’s the advance switch (not a pop bumper) that isn’t registering while the other one does.

If these are the carbon ring bumpers, check to ensure the ring is intact. If it is, polish the pin that sticks through the ring.

Always happy to help!

#11 4 months ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

That's to allow for side-to-side adjustment. Good work.

Tilt relay might be a good place to start, since all the bulbs (controlled) run through one switch there.

If these are the carbon ring bumpers, check to ensure the ring is intact. If it is, polish the pin that sticks through the ring.

Always happy to help!

It’s ALL the lighting, controlled and GI. It all flickers on briefly with a coil pop. So it probably is an iffy contact on a switch somewhere.

The pop switch, along with all the others, were cleaned but I hit it with the emery board and now it’s working better. It’s probably gapped a little too far apart so I’ll adjust that a little. I’ll give the other switch (the non-pop bumper switch) the same treatment and see what happens.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 15.00
Lighting - Led
Professor Pinball
$ 15.00
Apparel - Unisex
Silverball Swag
$ 149.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Sparky Pinball
$ 259.99
Cabinet - Toppers
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 5,999.99
$ 6,295.00
Pinball Machine
Maine Home Recreation
$ 32.00
$ 15.00
Cabinet - Other
Filament Printing
$ 19.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
$ 84.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 24.00
Playfield - Other
Pin Monk
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 130.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 14.00
From: $ 75.00
Lighting - Interactive
Cobra Amusements
From: $ 175.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Williamson Pinball Mods
$ 25.00
Boards
German-Pinball-Modular
$ 86.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 29.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Bent Mods
$ 49.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Bent Mods
$ 219.99
Lighting - Led
PinballBulbs
$ 175.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
$ 144.00
Lighting - Backbox
The MOD Couple
From: $ 15.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
From: € 40.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Creo Pinball
$ 79.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 220.00

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside