(Topic ID: 187776)

United's 1968 Delta shuffle alley pin coil latch plates will not stay engaged

By John1020

6 years ago


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  • 13 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Mopar
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    #1 6 years ago

    Hello,
    I am relatively new to the EM machine restoration hobby. I am currently on restoring my 4th machine. I am concentrating on EM shuffle alley machines (1950-60s). I find the machines on Craig’s list in non-working condition. I then fix them up and pass them on to friends or siblings for the cost of the machine and materials. My paying job is a Technical Support Engineer for BMW of North America. So far I have been able to fix all the issues on all the machines I have purchased except this one. The current one that I am working on is going to be a wedding present for my younger brother and it has one issue that I am unable to fix. I am hoping someone here will take pity on me and help me out. The machine is a 1968 United/Williams Delta shuffle alley machine. It was purchased in non-working condition and had not worked in years according to the previous owner. The issue I have is that intermittently the #10, #6 and #2 pin coil latch plates will not stay engaged/locked after the main reset relay bar is activated. Prior to working on this issue I have gone through the systematic approach as described in pinrepair.com. I have already gone through all the Step up Units to insure they functioned properly and cleaned out and renewed all the old gummed up grease. I have also checked all the switch adjustments on the machine (only found 3-4 that needed slight attention). I cleaned all the contact boards with a red scotch bright pad and put a light coating of Super Lube Synthetic Grease. I have also disassembled all the score wheels, cleaned of the old grease and reassembled without grease (metal to nylon contact = no grease needed). This fixed all the issues I had except the last one. The last issue I have is that intermittently the #10, #6 and #2 pin coil latch plates will not stay engaged/locked after the main reset relay bar is activated. This happens intermittently and can happen to one, two or all three randomly. It happens most frequently to #10 (once every 3-4 resets on average). #6 is next (once every 4-5th reset). #2 happen once every 20-30 resets. So far I have done the following to address this issue with no success:
    Removed main reset bar, welded up elongated holes and re-drilled new holes in the proper location. Welded up and reshaped excessively worn stud on pivot bar that connects main reset plunger to main reset bar. Ensured that the main reset bar has enough travel and moves freely to reset coils properly. Insured main reset solenoid pulls plunger in far enough to activate main reset bay far enough to reset switch plates. Rechecked adjustment of all switches on Main reset assembly. Rechecked switch adjustment of all playfield contact switches. Rechecked all switch adjustments of pin tip up coil switches. Measured resistance of all coils on reset bar. All coils except the #1 coil were between 13.2-13.6Ohms (S-29 950 Light Blue in color). #1 coil measured at 5.4ohm (S-27 750 Green in color). I can see no reason why this coil should be different and the solder joint makes me think it was replaced sometime in the past. At this point I did not think the difference is significate enough to cause and issue and moved on.
    I had someone else shoot the puck while I watched the main reset in action and I found that the coil plate for the #10. #6 and #2 pins would intermittently momentary lock in place and then seem to slip back out and not stay engaged. So the problem was that the coil would activate, the latch plate would engage but then immediately disengage causing my issue. I then removed the #10 coil, latch plate and switch plate and inspected them for excessive wear or damage. Finding no damage with the components I reassembled them and then connected a compact florescent light bulb using alligator clips in a parallel circuit with the #10 coil at the coil connectors. I continued testing and found that when the coil worked properly the light would flash momentarily when the coil was activated and did not flash during the main reset operation. When the problem would occur the light would flash immediately following the main reset bar activation. This was an indication that I was getting a second voltage signal being sent to the coil releasing the coil plate immediately after the reset. Occasionally the light would flash dimly during the main reset activation but would not release the coil plate. This tells me that the voltage signal this time was not strong enough to activate the coil. This testing with the LED light was also done to the #6 and #2 coils with the same results. So the million dollar question is; what can be causing the secondary pulse causing the coil to activate and release/disengage the plate?? As a side note, when manually releasing the coil plates and then activating the roll over relay I was never able to get the issue to occur. It seems that you need to shoot the puck to get the pins to pop up for the issue to occur. I have attached pictures of the machine, Main reset assembly and a close up of #10, #6 and #2 coil plates in the released/disengaged position. I have the wiring diagram, playfield switch diagram and additional documents describing the switch and relay operation.
    I thank you in advance for any help you may give.
    John

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    #2 6 years ago

    John, the only other thing that you didn't mention is if you tightened the switch blade stacks..
    All else looks good. First, what I do is clean the reset bar (with scotch brite and a solution)
    and the plates where the bar hits to reset, then give the bar a light lube so the bar slides
    nicely along the plates, although that is not your issue here. You could have magnetic plates,
    but because you're getting a slight electrical impulse at reset, it sounds like a switch/switches
    in the relay bank may be slightly to close and touching from the reset's vibration. Any relays
    in the bank that has the 2,6,and 10 number on their label, you'll want to inspect to see if
    there's any switches that are too close together. While the machine was on and the bank
    was in the reset position, I've tapped on each relay to find which one was activating another
    relay/relays. Of course it possibly could be that a rollover switch is to close and making from
    the banks vibration, but I'm sure that you've checked that..
    Let us know how you make out.. (T)

    #3 6 years ago
    Quoted from John1020:

    the million dollar question is; what can be causing the secondary pulse causing the coil to activate and release/disengage the plate?? As a side note, when manually releasing the coil plates and then activating the roll over relay I was never able to get the issue to occur.

    If I am readin this right, you can reset the bsnk, and everything holds. but sometimes, some relays release right after the reset?
    If the bank can reset, and everything hold, then the trip signal is commin up stream. not caused by the bank assy.
    follow each coil trip line back to what all is in line with it, and you will find your problem.
    If you have gone through everything once, then do it again...everything. you cannot solve every problem in an em machine with only one pass through. there are too many channels where things have to line up in a bowler.
    chk your other game step units again!!!, you may be gettin a stray signal from a step unit in line with everything else.
    you will need to go through it again, I know that bites, but if you want it solid, you will go through it again.

    #4 6 years ago

    also, look into that one coil you mentioned, it may be too small and letting signals through too quickly. if it is a series coil, change it!!!! put the correct coil in, and try it. A weaker resistance will change the timing, and you will NOT see that...but it WILL bite you.

    #5 6 years ago

    I would suspect the springs that hold the latch plates.

    #6 6 years ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    I would suspect the springs that hold the latch plates.

    Good point, and/or the latch plates themselves, but John sounds like he knows what
    he's doing and thinking they may have been checked, plus he's getting an electrical pulse..
    Just a couple weeks ago I went through an United Ball Bowler and there was a set of switches
    that were just a little to close together in the #2 pin relay that was activated 3 other pin relays at
    reset. When I first experience this problem back in the early 90s, the Old Vendor told me exactly
    this, and from the (who knows how many) ball and shuffle bowlers that I went through that had
    this problem, very much more than not it was a switch that was to close in the bank. I still have a
    couple dozen or so other ball bowlers around here that I'll eventually be getting to and I'm sure I'll
    run into this little issue again. Saving them (along with many other machines) to go through once retired..

    -1
    #7 6 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    plus he's getting an electrical pulse..

    Getting the pulse to the coil isn't enough to get it to latch though. I haven't had that particular problem with my puck bowler (these United machines were more or less all the same, no matter what the name or backglass says), but I did have it with a 1949 Chicago Coin pinball. The coil would pull the plate in, and in theory it's supposed to lock and the coil releases. The springs on a couple of the latching plates were weak, and there was no tension on the plate to hold it in place-- so it would randomly unlock itself when it shouldn't have. Replacing those springs made the problem go away (now if I could only find the schematic for this machine so I could understand how the scoring reset is supposed to work!).

    Quoted from Mopar:

    I still have a couple dozen or so other ball bowlers around here that I'll eventually be getting to

    Oh, I'm jealous! I really want a ball bowler! Space issues aside, it's been my experience that these are either totally beat and would cost a fortune to restore, or "too nice" and people want a fortune for them. Some day I'll find one!

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    Getting the pulse to the coil isn't enough to get it to latch though.

    Oh yeah. This has happened to me on both United and Chicago Coin. All it takes is super split second
    like shooting a super fast puck down the lane.. I have had many spring problems, but those were mostly
    broken. Magnetic plates also now and then..

    Quoted from drsfmd:

    it's been my experience that these are either totally beat and would cost a fortune to restore

    I actually know where there's a couple United 14' small ball bowlers here in Upstate for maybe $500.00
    They do need fixing, but that's how you get them without the big buck..
    Here's one that I picked up for $500.00 (elsewhere) and put it in a Friends business. When I got it in, this machine
    was totally black with an unappealing square pin hood, deep scrapes, holes, and other issues and around 100 hours
    later, it came out like this. I've done many before this one, and I guess if you count your time, it could be called
    a fortune, but this is what I like doing during Winter to stay active..
    Ball Bowlers are better players, but I like some of those 50s Shuffles also.. (T)

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    #9 6 years ago

    Wow- thanks for the quick and varied replies.
    I will answer the questions in order I received them:
    Mopar:
    I have cleaned and lubed the reset bar with no change. I have tightened the switch stacks but I will go through them again. With as many as there are I might have missed one.
    I have adjusted the switches on the bank relay twice already without success but I will inspect them again. I like the tapping idea- I will defiantly try that.
    Yes I checked the roll over switches twice but I did this with the playfield upside down on saw horses and now I am afraid that the weight of the roll over wire may be causing the switch adjustment to be too close when putting the playfield in the correct position. It’s very had to see/set them from underneath. I will have to make up some kind of short table so that I can comfortably inspect them and adjust them again. I also found another port where someone found a switch stack spacer cracked and shorting so that is something else I will need to check.
    When you state that I may have magnetic plates: is there any easy way to check them? I touched them with a small metal rod but it had no attraction to the plates. Do I just swap plates with another pin coil that is not having and issue to see if the problem moves?

    Dr of Style:
    Yes the reset works properly and the locking tab is completely hidden. Then the plate will release just a split second later.
    The # 1 coil has lower resistance so it would in theory have more current flow at the same voltage and pull in the latch plate faster. It would also create a larger magnetic field than the other coils. I am not sure this would affect the operation. Are all the coils for all the pins supposed to be the same? I will order one soon.

    Drmsmd:
    I already tried swapping the #10 latch plate and switch plate spring with #3 (no change). The # 3 springs are of the same vintage as the rest so they may be too week as you suggested. Any Idea where I can get good quality replacement springs?

    My homework:
    Using the schematic follow the # 2, 8 and 10 coil trip line back to what all is in line with it. Look for common element.
    Recheck all game step units.
    Inspect them and adjust roll over switches when orientated in the correct position (not upside down). Check for switch stack spacers cracked or damaged causing a short.
    Check switches in the relay bank to see if one or more is slightly too close and touching from the reset's vibration. I will try tapping on switch bank assembly in various places to see if problem reoccurs.
    Swap # 10 latch plate with another known good number in case it is Magnetic.
    Replace # 1 coil with the correct coil.
    Replace latch plate springs on # 2, 6 and 10.

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from John1020:

    I already tried swapping the #10 latch plate and switch plate spring with #3 (no change). The # 3 springs are of the same vintage as the rest so they may be too week as you suggested. Any Idea where I can get good quality replacement springs?

    It will take a bit of experimentation to figure that out. Luckily springs are cheap

    You won't find "United" parts, but the good thing is that there are plenty of substitutions. Figure out the right length. Approximate the wire gauge. Order a slightly shorter spring in the same gauge, the same length in a slightly heavier gauge, etc. It took me 3 or 4 tries until I got it right with my Chicago Coin pin, but the springs are less than a buck each from Marco, PB Resource, etc...

    #11 6 years ago
    Quoted from John1020:

    When you state that I may have magnetic plates: is there any easy way to check them?

    If there's a magnetic plate, and you push it in, it won't stay against the coil
    as if it were a magnetic. Only when its coil gets energized, it will sometimes stay..
    A quick way to check it is to place a strip of paper between the plate and the coil
    so when the plate gets pulled in, it's not in direct contact with the coil and
    can't stick. Having magnetic plates aren't very uncommon, but I'd also carefully check
    for contacts that may be very close together and may possibly be touching form vibration..

    5 months later
    #12 6 years ago

    Could you post a video on youtube?

    #13 6 years ago

    Post a vid on youtube?
    Say, all this time and now I'm asking, on this bowler, do the rollovers
    activate the pins, or the bank relays. The pins, right?

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