It's almost certainly a problem with the AxBx IMHO. A very wise man told me that the ONLY way to get this working right is to remove the pan from the cabinet so you can really see what is going on. I added to that by purchasing a magnifying lamp - about 30 bucks from Harbor Freight and some of the best money I've ever spent on a tool. Under the magnifying lamp, you can see exactly what is happening with that tricky little relay and make appropriate little adjustments to it. The pain is that you gotta put everything back together in order to test your work. I've successfully repaired a couple of flaky AxBx relays using this technique, where I had nothing but frustration before.

Good luck!!

What's the DX relay doing? Here's the circuit that activates the AX relay.

Pinball (resized).png

Before you get shot down in flames, you at least realise that your initial approach wasn't wise

So, you have tinkered with various relays, including the ubiquitous AX relay. Gottlieb introduced this, I believe, to improve performance and save on more expensive production methods as used on earlier models. Great, however, the AX must be the biggest PITA ever made. So, before you do anything else, check it, and check it again!

There's a good example on doing this on Clay's site: www.pinrepair.com do take time and read this. You might then, from checking your work, be on the path to recovery.

Oh, and invest in a schematic if you don't already own one... Good luck

It wasn't easy!

Are you referring to the AS style relay?

Good advice, Vintage-Pinball

Pinball (resized).png

Hi jaybird5619 +
in post-3 You write: Toggling-on the pin makes the Q-Relay to pull-in - good. Toggling-on the pin makes the H-Relay to pull-in - good. Toggling-on the pin immediately makes the motor to run - endlessly - not good. currieddog shows in post-2, JPG the Start-up-Procedure --- there on 8. is written: Place the ball in the Outhole --- means: jaybird, want to try how the pin reacts when You take out the ball - not having it in the Outhole between the flippers - then toggle-on - what happens ?

Poor us - an switch on a relay may be faulty closed - faulty closed when the relay is not pulling.
Lucky us - switch is good - the RELAY does faulty pull (so the switch is entitled to close).
See the JPG - C,D,G,O,P,S,W Relay(s) make the motor to turn (and switch motor-1C and the combination "not pulling S-Relay and AX-Relay moved") ---
Are we LUCKY and You see one of these mentioned relays immediately pulling-in when You toggle-on the pin ? Greetings Rolf

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That won't be necessary, or even a good idea at this stage.

What will be helpful is to notice that the AX, BX, and DX relays each have 2 coils, e.g. AX and AXR. Can you be specific about which of the 2 coils (AX or AXR, and DX or DXR) is activating?

Hi jaybird5619
You have chosen an complicated - late Gottlieb pin to dive into EM-Logic. Theory later - please do: Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons). Go to the open Backbox and look into - look towards the player --- see the picture in the JPG - the Player-Unit of "Spirit of 76" in HOME-Position (also called Position-ZERO). Look in Your pin along the axis (towards the player) - an steel ratchet - then milky-white Cam-1, Cam-2, Cam-3, Cam-4 and the last Cam is usually black --- black Cam-5. Cam-5 has ONLY one tooth to activate its switchstack. Manually move the plunger on the unit - do step an step - do another one - do another one --- see when You do steps that the Cam-1, Cam-2, Cam-3, Cam-4 do actuate their switchstack (?) --- this is for "routing points made to the 'appropriate' Players Score-Drums". Do steps, steps --- some 15, 20, 25, 30 steps - do a full revolution and more --- see at a given time the tooth on Cam-5 (FIVE) actuates its switchstack - You have reached and are in Position-ZERO / Home-Position.
(((I believe Your pin was in this Position-Zero - and this is NOT a good position to try to start a new game))). From this Position-Zero count, do some 8 to 15 steps --- it doesnt really matter how many steps - important is: You step AWAY from Position-Zero.

Then plug-in, toggle-on - with an wooden stick press the armature on R-Relay - then take away the wooden stick - DOES the R-Relay stays pulling ? What is the pin doing ? Motor ? AX- and BX-Relay ? other Relays ? Backbox-Lights ? DOES the Player-Unit in the Backbox STEPS FORWARD ? 1,2,3 steps - or maybe many steps reaching (again, on its own stepping) Position-Zero ? Write about the behaviour of Your pin.

Theory: On top of the JPG we see "Player Unit 19, 18, 17, 16, 11, 10, 9, 8" --- the position(s) for to activate the BX-Relay when a game comes to the end. It depends on "is the pin set for 3 balls per play or set for five balls per play --- is it a One- or Two- or Three- or Four-Player-Game". In the left bottom corner I made a list for some positions (Pl (PL) = Player, B = Ball). In the JPG, middle, left we see "encircled green switch, drawn closed P1F" --- Position-Zero is also "Position when Player-1 plays Ball-1 as Cam-1 also activates its switchstack". You wrote about "Score-Drums of Player-1 are illuminated" --- as You have stepped beyond Zero-Position by now - they may be lit or unlit depending on how many steps You have stepped - if Cam-1 is actuating its switchstack - or not actuating.
I have "encircled red" switches on BX-Relay - as Your pin did actuate one direction and actuate other direction the BX-Relay: You had the phenomena of "turning on and off the lights for player 2 and 3". Below the picture of the Player-Unit in the JPG: "encircled brown" is a switch on the motor - Your motor faulty turns - switch gets activated, de-activated etc. - I have "encircled blue" Switch on Dx-Relay and Switch on R-Relay" --- I asked You to push the armature on R-Relay (wooden stick) because I want the Switch on R-Relay OPEN - so we hopefully get rid of "actuating AX-RESET- and BX-RESET-Coils". The "encircled green P5A" is allowed to be closed in Position-ZERO - but I asked You to step on the Player-Unit - away, beyond Position-Zero - so this switch must be open by now.

Please write what Your pin is doing when You have stepped away from Position-Zero (Player-Unit) - plugging-in and toggling-on - then pressing the armature on R-Relay. Greetings Rolf

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Hi jaybird5619
thanks for doing the tests. When You activate the R-Relay --- it stays pulling - good. Motor runs continually --- thats our main problem. AX- and BX-Relays stop toggling on off - nice. The Reset-Coils on these are A-5662, the other coils are A-9735 --- WHAT coils do actuate LAST (and then no more actuating) ? Backlights Player-4 off --- good. Backlights Player-1,2,3 on --- not so good --- when the last actuating of BX is "A-5662 actuates last": FAULT in the adjustment of the switchblades on BX-Relay. When the last actuating of BX is "A-9735 actuates last": FAULT in actuating. Player-Unit steps and steps and steps ... reaching Position-Zero then stops (no more stepping) --- quite good is the fact "stopping in Position-Zero". Question: When toggling-on the pin - does the S-Start-Relay pulls-in (((actually You have said no - I must ask again))) ? To me it looks like the pin (when You just toggle-on) does some kind of "Start-up a new game" doing stuff - stepping the Player-Unit forward (this stepping is normal) - stepping forward forward reaching Position-Zero - Player-Unit stops (good) - then the faulty motor run takes over. Please do: Toggle-off the pin - manually put like 10 or 20 or 110 or 120 or 210 or 220 points on Score-Drums of Player-ONE --- also on Player-THREE. Manually make a couple of Drop-Down-Targets to drop --- then plug-in, toggle-on - questions: Does the pin RESETS the Score-Drums (to 'all Zero') ? Does the pin reset the Drop-Targets ? Can You move the flipperbats ? (yes, the motor runs and runs).

I do not like what I see in Your videos --- here is a good video http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo . At exactly 1:33 to 1:42 Clay (?) toggles on the relay - see - moved STABLE - then moved other direction - STABLE - then moved again - STABLE - and so on. Please toggle-off the pin and manually do the same (as in the video) toggling back and forth - question: After You have moved one or the other direction - do You have STABLE ? Greetings Rolf

Hi jaybird5619
an add-on to post-16. I would like to concentrate on "when toggling-on the pin then the motor runs and runs --- is maybe the S-Start-Relay the cause of the problem".
An non-pleasing work we sometimes have to do on a Gottlieb-Pin / schematics (here on S-Relay): Looking-up ALL switches in the schematics. The schematics tells us in the list of Relays: S-Start-Relay, 7A, 1B (((, Zero C))) means the relay has 7 Normally-Open-Switches, 1 Normally-Closed-Switch, Zero "threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch".
Please toggle-off the pin - look at the armature on S-Relay - is the armature knocked-off the seating ? As I am chasing the "toggling-on the pin makes the motor to run" problem: I do want ALL the switches on S-Relay OPEN --- please sneak stripes of paper into ALL switches - in-between the participating switchblades / contact-points - ALL Switches shall be OPEN. Then plug-in, toggle-on (do not start a game) --- big question: Does the motor runs when You toggle-on ? Greetings Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-31 (resized).jpg

Hi Jay
great - progress. The ball is not kicked out - I assume the very first ball (?). You manually put it into play - You play - then You loose the ball - it enters the Outhole - and now: Does the pin gives You points onto the Score-Drums "doing the collect bonus feature" ? I assume "Yes" --- then the ball lays forever in the Outhole (?).

Accidentally / by chance the "wiring of interest" is in (up) the JPG in post-18 - the Ball-Return-Coil (Outhole-Kicker) fires when the O-Outhole-Relay is pulling and so its switch is closed --- the BX-RESET-Coil has fired (BX so is resetted) so its switch is closed --- the motor is running and so closes motor-4C switch at a time.
This part / area in the JPG looks "busy / complicated" --- we see as the motor runs and closes motor-4C: (AND the Player-Unit reaches position-Zero means P5A actuates from open to CLOSED) AND the DX-Relay is resetted and so its switch is closed: The AX- and the BX- do reset - hmm, tricky. Well, it is not that bad - in the schematics at 19-A/B, Motor Sequence Chart we see: Looooong duration of motor-4C closing - time for first to reset the AX and the BX and then make the Ball-Return-Coil fire.

Jay - start a game and get the feeling when AX and BX are resetted: AT THAT time the O-Relay MUST pull --- does it pull ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Jay
a post to come with JPG and theory - in short (an quick test for You) --- You start a game - reset is done - then the pin comes to "idle - doing nothing" - now, You (wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick) press the armature on the O-Relay and let go - the O-Relay should establish Self-Hold-Current (means: stay pulling for a while) and the motor should run and the ball should be kicked over to the shooter alley --- what is happening in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Jay
an add-on to post-23: I want to chase the problem "After starting a new game - then resetting THEN the ball must be kicked over to the shooter-alley". You probably have the playfield up for to look at relays --- important: Eiter the ball laying in the Outhole or You with an finger MUST CLOSE the Outhole-Switch mounted below the Outhole --- This Outhole-Switch is part of the circuitry and must be closed. Greetings Rolf

Hi Jay
You do the tests (as described in post-23, post-24) --- AAA: The manually activated O-Relay does stay pulling for a while or BBB: The manually activated O-Relay does NOT stay pulling for a while.
See the JPG - my red line and the encircled red switch - when You manually activate the O-Relay by pressing the armature You close "switch encircled red" - doing so You should establish Self-Hold-Circuitry through switch encircled red and "my green-4,3,2,1 switches".
If You have BBB: The focus is on switch encircled red and "my green-4,3,2,1 switches".
If You have AAA: The focus is on "my green-5,6" and my green question marks.

"My green question marks" - I do not feel comfortable - I do not have the pin --- the handling of the BONUS stuff in Target Alpha is very different to "Bonus-Ladder I am used to see in my pins" --- I feel uneasy to write about "area of green questionmarks" - hoping for luck means hoping the fault is in green-1,2,3,4,5,6 ...
Greetings Rolf

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Hi Jay
I see with joy how Your O-Relay stays pulling for a while when You manually activate it (video).
I agree with currieddog 's post-27. Further down in my post about troubleshooting - first some theory.
Bally, Gottlieb, Willams schematics have somewhere on the schematics some text like "All (switches on) Interlock-Relays are drawn in 'latched position' ". Or then an text "The schematics is drawn - AFTER the start / reset of an ONE-Player-Game - ball then is kicked over to the shooter-alley - ball is not lauched into play - we then have toggled-off the pin, unplugged the main power cord. THIS situation is what we see in the schematics. Bally / Williams Game-Over-Relays are "Interlock-Relays" --- Your Taget Alpha AX-, BX-, DX-Relays are Interlock-Relays - shown after reset - no points made (ball not launched) - Interlock-Relays stay in position - Steppers also stay in position when we toggle-off / unplug --- simple Relays loose current (by toggling off) and let go - all simple Relays are drawn "non-pulling".
Sometimes I see wiring / switches on a relay - position of switch(es) --- I do not understand "why, what for, how comes the switch is drawn like I see it drawn" - confusing. I then say "maybe a fault in the drawing - maybe needed to handle 'special / extraordinary states the pin can be in' " --- I look-up in the pin and check the switch(es) - all good with switch(es) (?).

I created a little story: Long time ago - arcade-room times - busy place - some players are playing a ball - some play and have the ball in an Eject-Hole way up on the playfield - some have just lost a played ball - pin is busy counting down the bonus - some player come to end of the play - some do start a new game - some are throwing-in an coin --- many states the pins are in ---
NOW thunderstorm and a lightning hits the local powerstation - an blackout --- the operator says "O.K. folks - thats for today - everybody is going home". Next morning the local power station is fixed - ALL PINS MUST START-UP - whatever "special / extraordinary states" they happened to be in at the time of the blackout started. A LOT of strange looking wiring / switches happens to be (drawn in the schematics and mounted in the pins) FOR TO start in next morning after a blackout has happened.
On many Relays in the pins are so-called "Self-Hold-Switches" mounted on the relay - the coil gets "Initial-Current" - coil pulls - switches do actuate - the Self-Hold-Switch therefore closes - establish "Self-Hold-Current through this closed switch" - forever --- no, not forever - after some time another switch in the line does open - coil looses Slf-Hold-Current - relay let go - opens its switches so Self-Hold-Switch on the relay opens - the other switch can close - relay stays non-active.
You see this in the lower right corner in the JPG - the example "P-Add-Player-Unit-RELAY" --- Initial-current comes through the closed Switch "Trough Switch, below the Apron, ball on the way from Outhole to shooter alley closes this through switch" --- P-Relay pulls-in, closes (encircled violet) its Self-Hold-Switch so Self-Hold-Circuitry is established as long as the "my green-4 Switch" stays closed.
In the JPG, a bit above, the G-Bonus-Score-Control-Relay ALSO has its Self-Hold-Switch - not so easy to be seen - as some switches are in-between "coil" and "Self-Hold-Switch".

Troubleshooting: See the JPG - written brown "Jumper" --- toggle of the pin, unplug the main power cord - establish the permanent set Jumper "my brown line" - have the Ball OUT - it shall not close the Ball-Return-Switch (in Williams Pins we call the switch "Outhole-Switch"). Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- pin does reset and comes to idle - doing nothing - NOW put the ball in the Outhole or manually close the Outhole-Switch-is-Ball-Return-Switch --- DOES the O-Ball-Return-Relay (in Williams Pins it is called Outhole-Relay) pull-in - motor does a turn of 120 degrees and the Ball-Return-Coil (we often call it Outhole-Kicker) fires ? If "No": Write about. If "Yes": Please take away the (my brown) Jumper --- this Jumper is good for to do a test - the Jumper is not an fix - the Jumper can cause strange behaviour of the pin when we let the jumper in the pin --- take the Jumper out. As the result of the test (jumper) was/is good - we can say (see the JPG): "Wiring and switches are good - good along "my green-1,2,3,4,5,6"

Not having "my brown Jumper" mounted - starting a game: The area in the JPG "7a, 7b, 8a, 8b and my rosa / pink lines / wires" are in question. Have a good look at "Make-and-Brake-Switch on DX-Relay having wires: middle-wire-color-orange-mingled-with-white, outside-wire-red-green, outside-wire-black-mingled-with-white.
Ckeck for wire(s) truely soldered-on at the solder-lug(s) (gently pull on each wire) what I show on the bottom of the JPG as "my rosa / pink lines". Greetings Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-33 (resized).jpg

Way to stick with it! Those aha moments are both wonderful and frustrating at the same time. You wonder how you overlooked something that now seems so obvious. But once you do that 3 (or 100) times you add it to your things to be aware of next time and repairs get slightly easier.