(Topic ID: 345386)

An open letter to Multimorphic

By SantaEatsCheese

4 months ago


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  • 75 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 19 days ago by arcyallen
  • Topic is favorited by 30 Pinsiders

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There are 251 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.
#101 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Zach wasn’t complaining about repair issues but the duel flipper buttons and very different menu/diagnostic system. And don’t recall him saying anything about getting rid of it fast enough. Believe he got on trade and flipped like he does dozens of other games.
There are plenty of fair pros and cons to discuss about the P3., but the “not real pinball” is ridiculous at this point IMO with the launch of Final Resistance.

I would like to state for the record as the OP, that P3 felt 100% like real pinball to me, with snappy physical flippers. The pop up scoops and walls are amazing. There was exactly one mode in Weird Al where the ball was running over things on the screen that felt hybridy to me, and the minigames that are often shown at show feel gimmicky to me. Honestly, one other suggestion I'd make would be to get more games at shows, and to have the games at shows playing P3 made modules and not just the mini games. Playing Dungeon Door Defender is a great diversion, but I would never have bought my system to play Dungeon Door Defender Alone. A working Heist, Weird Al, or Final Resistance though... that would have gotten me to adopt the system earlier than I did.

10
#102 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I'm still waiting to experience this special moment. Almost as prized as the downvotes from dingleberry I enjoyed.

I think Lyman had only issued one downvote on pinside and it’s me. RIP.

#103 4 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Let's not get crazy. You can buy good servos and you can buy cheap servos. A $20 servo is cheap. A $100+ servo is where you want to be for reliability, strength, etc.. You think guys with $20,000 R/C jets are gonna go "welp, those servos keep failing". The engineering of a servo's linkage is a HUGE reason why they are probably failing. You have to know how to work with them properly.
I doubt anyone using servos in pinball has even done a force diagram or other basic engineering stuff to see what is even going on with the forces in their linkages. They all seem to view it as a way to try and get cheap motion, when actual quality servos are more expensive than the real pinball mechs are.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Let's live in reality. Pinball manufacturers that are BOM-sensitive are not going to use $100+ servos. And you're right, they're being used as a cheap shortcut when they're really neither for pinball in practice.

I'm obviously out on the system, but perhaps someone knowledgeable like you guys could suggest a superior replacement part that would be less likely to have issues for the fans. Being able to replace with a part less likely to break the next time something goes down could be a big help.

#104 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I think Lyman had only issued one downvote on pinside and it’s me. RIP.

I believe I got Lyman's only pinside upvote, I think in that same thread. RIP.

EDIT: Found it.

Your Lyman downvote in the stranger things thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-stranger-things/page/110#post-5430602

My Lyman upvote in the same thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-stranger-things/page/110#post-5431326

I couldn't see if these are indeed the only down/up votes he did, but I think it's the case.

#105 4 months ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

I'm obviously out on the system, but perhaps someone knowledgeable like you guys could suggest a superior replacement part that would be less likely to have issues for the fans. Being able to replace with a part less likely to break the next time something goes down could be a big help.

I would just say stick to coils and stepper motors and avoid servos. I doubt any servo in the price range pinball companies could swallow would be reliable enough, and to say the cheap RC ones they have used are "consumables" and call it good is ridiculous.

#106 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I would just say stick to coils and stepper motors and avoid servos. I doubt any servo in the price range pinball companies could swallow would be reliable enough, and to say the cheap RC ones they have used are "consumables" and call it good is ridiculous.

100% agree, but I don't think the existing modules out there could be retrofit with coils instead of servos. However, for those who already own those modules, if they could replace the servo with a $40 one that would last 10 years instead of a $15 one that might last 2, I think many owners might opt to replace cheap servos with more reliable ones as they break.

Multimorphic has already stated they are minimizing the use of Servos on future modules. J

Edit: Their vs there (argh) coil vs vuk.

Edit 2: Your quiet fans are awesome

#107 4 months ago

They went through all this on the GnR thread as the spotlight servo's broke all the time. There were reccomendations for better replacements i recall from back when i owned one.

#108 4 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

They went through all this on the GnR thread as the spotlight servo's broke all the time. There were reccomendations for better replacements i recall from back when i owned one.

Not all servos work on the same voltage. Ones that work on other machines may not work on P3. MM is using high voltage (7.2v) metal gear servos.

#109 4 months ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

100% agree, but I don't think the existing modules out there could be retrofit with coils instead of servos. However, for those who already own those modules, if they could replace the servo with a $40 one that would last 10 years instead of a $15 one that might last 2, I think many owners might opt to replace cheap servos with more reliable ones as they break.
Multimorphic has already stated they are minimizing the use of Servos on future modules. J
Edit: Their vs there (argh) coil vs vuk.
Edit 2: Your quiet fans are awesome

Yeah, I don't have a MM to do any kind of testing, and I would definitely want to do that firsthand before making any recommendations, and that seems...unlikely. So it will probably be a bunch of user-to-user tips that build up over time to fix the issues with MM machines. And because the market is relatively small, it will probably take a bunch of time. Sucks, but that's the likely outcome.

#110 4 months ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

On the 3d printing part, if the files were released, perhaps some pinside shops could pop up offering superior replacement parts so that if people did have 3d parts break, they could at their own cost choose to replace them with stronger pieces.

I can offer this service if multimorphic ever decides to do this

As far as the servos go - what I see on my weird al are pretty nice but to get superior servos you are looking $80 or more a pop.

#111 4 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

Not all servos work on the same voltage. Ones that work on other machines may not work on P3. MM is using high voltage (7.2v) metal gear servos.

Yes i'm aware. The point i was making was that some of those guys know a thing or two about the issue.

In any case, it's not my problem, or others problem, to solve.

It's a manufacturing issue.

#112 4 months ago

I think none of here you are asking the correct question: How much glue did they have to add to the perfectly straight vinyl tear on Johnny Depp's face? And more imporantly, as an A-List actor can't he...you know...cry?

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#113 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I’ve told people in this hobby to go fuck themselves. If anyone has a screenshot feel free to post it.
It will not make 3D parts magically turn into steel but it might be funny.

You're not worth a screenshot.

#114 4 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I think Lyman had only issued one downvote on pinside and it’s me. RIP.

You must of deserved it!

#115 4 months ago

FWIW when our 3D printed flipper snapped I asked if I could just get the STL as I have a very nice 3D printer here and could get the game back in service quicker. I was told it was too complicated and had to wait for them to ship me a new flipper. Which was frustrating to say the least. Agree with the thought that if your going to use anything FDM printed you should be ready and willing to supply the files to let someone print on demand.

10
#116 4 months ago

Here I thought the biggest headache with owning a P3 was "what the heck am I supposed to do with the modules when I'm not using them?"

The fact that people are cringing every time they switch out a module, fearing the worst, is pretty awful.

#117 4 months ago
Quoted from stubborngamer:

Here I thought the biggest headache with owning a P3 was "what the heck am I supposed to do with the modules when I'm not using them?"
The fact that people are cringing every time they switch out a module, fearing the worst, is pretty awful.

I never felt that in my time of owning one. I had three modules and took them to Australia's biggest pinball show and swapped them everytime someone asked me too.

You have to get the process right, but for me it was usually good and a one shot thing.

#118 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Cheap RC servos should not be used in pinball for ANY critical/gameplay items (bling only), and ideally not at all in a pinball machine. They just are not reliable enough. Doppleganger on Venom is run by a coil with a novel application to make it "swivel." I could see a lesser engineering result being just to throw a servo in there like Stern tried on TMNT Premium/LE when they learned what a disaster that was.
That said, IF they're going to do RC servos and admit that they're designed to fail after a certain amount of use (consumable), then they ABSOLUTELY SHOULD have a connector block moved right next to the servo so it's only necessary to unscrew the servo, unplug it, and then put the new one in, screw it in, and plug it into the adjacent connector block. Under no circumstances should you be required to snip zip ties along the way back to a distant connection point on a consumable item where this replacement is expected on a regular basis.

hell no, how many of us as kids ran our R/C cars into a wall head first and that was the end of the steering servo.

-6
#119 4 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor. Zach may be a great personality for a podcast but something that monumental gives me pause.

But remember Zach always gives honest reviews on games he is selling wink wink. I wouldn’t buy anything from him. Just seems like my cousin, who was a shister.

#120 4 months ago

MM always been out of my price range, but reading this means I would never get one on secondary market. I hate fiddling with things that break. I've always got my few pins I've owned working myself, but hate when shit breaks. Same with anything in my life. I would not be able to handle what Santa put up with.

#121 4 months ago
Quoted from BallyKISS1978:

But remember Zach always gives honest reviews on games he is selling wink wink. I wouldn’t buy anything from him. Just seems like my cousin, who was a shister.

Another brave soldier attacking a person rather than a problem. Go team Multi.

#122 4 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

I never felt that in my time of owning one. I had three modules and took them to Australia's biggest pinball show and swapped them everytime someone asked me too.
You have to get the process right, but for me it was usually good and a one shot thing.

That's cool, I'm sure the OP isn't the norm, I mean it's hard to find a pin thread without people pointing out problems, though in a lot of cases they are quite a bit more minor than what is stated here.

That guy from P3 was actually doing well, until he showed fear and skedaddled.

#123 4 months ago
Quoted from stubborngamer:

That guy from P3 was actually doing well, until he showed fear and skedaddled.

Except he started off complaining that the feedback was public. WTF?

#124 4 months ago

Not the greatest read after having just paid in full for a P3...

However, I went into it knowing it would be a new-to-me system with a learning curve. If I have to fix some things here and there, so be it. If I get lucky and it arrives undamaged and works out of the box, great!

The first real pin I bought was non-functional with numerous issues. I got a ton of satisfaction from bringing that one back to life and 100% working. That's my favorite part of the hobby, even above playing. I understand that aspect of the hobby can be frustrating for some, and there's a line for everybody for when enough is enough.

Here's hoping Final Resistance shows up ready for battle! Love me some Danesi! And I'm looking forward to future Multimorphic releases!

#125 4 months ago

+1 for the STL files just being posted to the MM log-in IT portion of website for owners to print .. or just publically on their site.

Suggesting they print with $25k printers is kinda ridiculous tho, for a smaller company imo. Obviously 1 printer won’t cut it so they’re looking at investing $100-200k in 3D printers vs a few grand? I don’t disagree about PLA being used for mechanical linkages but there’s plenty of other materials that are more forgiving up to the suggested carb-nylon on the X1c.

I’m curious what kind of repetition testing was done with the servos and linkages at MM and results. Disposable servos I guess are ok if they last a reasonable time but only if they also are super easy to swap out. Neither seems the case here which makes me wonder about testing that was done and what they saw from that.

#126 4 months ago

#ReleaseTheSTL

#127 4 months ago
Quoted from stubborngamer:

That's cool, I'm sure the OP isn't the norm, I mean it's hard to find a pin thread without people pointing out problems, though in a lot of cases they are quite a bit more minor than what is stated here.
That guy from P3 was actually doing well, until he showed fear and skedaddled.

I have a sneaking suspicion there is a correlation between how far you are from the multimorphic factory and how many issues you have. It has been my personal observation on the multimorphic thread that the people that have the best experience are those that can pick their game up from the factory. I would have if it wasn't a 25 hour drive.

As it is... mine showed up in a perfectly intact box with this interior damage day one. I live in Maryland on the coast. The base unit here has been solid and did not have any issues in the time I had it other than ribbon cables that needed to be reseated. This is a perfect box. I opened it up and found this.

pinside.2c1176fd3f8e5c4bad9fcb4d3c49cb3dfc4dcadc (resized).jpgpinside.2c1176fd3f8e5c4bad9fcb4d3c49cb3dfc4dcadc (resized).jpgpinside.8e0a218ab27750ffb412ae9bb9ccd8978c3680e7 (resized).jpgpinside.8e0a218ab27750ffb412ae9bb9ccd8978c3680e7 (resized).jpg

This is why I was emphasizing changing the way these things are shipped in my opening post.

With that said the guy right below me had no issues at all and his made it all the way to Australia.

Quoted from punkin:

I never felt that in my time of owning one. I had three modules and took them to Australia's biggest pinball show and swapped them everytime someone asked me too.
You have to get the process right, but for me it was usually good and a one shot thing.

36
#128 4 months ago
Quoted from stubborngamer:

That guy from [Multimorphic] was actually doing well, until he showed fear and skedaddled.

Everybody knows I'm still here reading the responses.

Quoted from stubborngamer:

The fact that people are cringing every time they switch out a module, fearing the worst, is pretty awful.

This is my biggest problem with the thread and why it's not super helpful for me to post here. This thread is highlighting the worst experiences people have had with the P3. Clearly any terrible experience is too many, but there are an equal number of nearly perfect experiences with the P3 from people who are labeled as fanboys and shamed from participating. Most people fall somewhere in between... having a few easily rectified problems and just enjoying their machines. If you think I'm ignoring problem reports and negative experiences, that's pretty silly. I see the RMAs and part replacements, and I know exactly what percentage of folks have needed things replaced.

If we've reached the point where people reading the thread are concluding that it's a risk to even change modules, it's gone too far, and the people participating should be ashamed of themselves and how their words are being received. The P3 is all about modularity and swapping games, and there's no risk that swapping games will damage a module unless the module is mishandled. Swap games freely and without fear.

That much of the discussion has become about servos and 3D printed parts is a good thing. I already said we've been digging into both. Regarding STL files - we've had no problems sharing them with everybody who's asked... unless that part requires post processing before being usable. Posting the ones that don't need to be post-processed would be fine.

EDIT - Just saw Santa's update. So let's talk shipping too. The damage in his backpanel was caused by a sudden drop in the machine. The force was transferred through those to "shipping blocks" into the cabinet. Those shipping blocks protected the playfield from taking damage, which is a good thing. The cabinet damage is not a good thing. We've long been discussing adding g-shock detectors to our machines. Too many machines are getting dropped vertically - I really wish freight companies would care a bit more. As discussed, we also stopped using UPS for most shipments of our heavier playfields, and the results have been dramatic. We've seen essentially no shipping damage on separately-shipped Heist and WAMONH playfields since making that change.

Quoted from ZMeny:

Please provide evidence, otherwise it’s just a bad attempt at slandering my business publicly. Even Gerry would tell you you’re wrong buddy. Criticism of my opinions are fine, but lies are not okay with me.

This is where this thread entered the twilight zone for me. The implication is that people are encouraged to post things that negatively impact my business (and family), but when somebody posts a factual but negative summary about a situation with Zach, they're accused of slander, and then a lie is put into MY mouth as defense? No, I wouldn't tell RDoyle he was wrong, because he wasn't wrong.

I'll look forward to listening to the next podcast where Zach unfairly references this thread as conclusive evidence that the P3 and P3 supporters are terrible. Zach is not unbiased and just expressing opinions. He mixes in opinions with actual slander in a clear attempt to influence buyers. That said, we all know he's allowed to express his "opinions" because those opinions are his "product". People aren't allowed to express negativity towards HIS product without being accused of attacking the person, but there's no distinction.

What's clear is there are people who love the P3, and there are people who don't. There are people who love Zach and people who don't. People should be able to express both opinions in a discussion forum without being shamed.

Back on topic... if the point of this "open letter" thread is to make me and Multimorphic aware that our product(s) can be improved, it's an unnecessary thread, but I appreciate that people care enough to want to help us improve, and I appreciate the constructive discussions involved. If the point is vent about bad experiences and to attack a family company and convince other people not to buy its products, then mission accomplished. Well done.

We all know the P3 is different from other machines. So is the way we've built the company. We didn't start with millions of dollars of backing like AP or BoF. We didn't start with millions of dollars in preorders like JJP. We started with an idea... in my garage, and with an ever-growing team of people who saw what we were doing and wanted to get involved. We've built the company from the ground up, with a ton of hard work and years of no salaries. The first P3 prototype was built in 2012, and I still now work 14-16 hour days almost 7 days a week trying to make the company successful. We iterated prototypes for 5 years and shipped the first P3 in late 2017... 6 years ago. Since then, we've continued iterating, improving, adding features, and creating some really amazing games. Yes, we've made a ton of great decisions and clearly a few wrong ones. It's a learning and growing process, but I'm damn proud of what the team has accomplished, and I sincerely appreciate the support so many people have given us along the way. I wish everybody's experiences were flawless. I really do.

We've taken a HUGE risk trying to bring real innovation to this industry. There's no other machine out there that can do half of the things the P3 does, but the P3 can do almost everything traditional machines do. Despite that, any one thing not working correctly can sour somebody's experience - so it's easy to focus on those things and ignore everything else we're doing. On the flip side, I can assure you we're not ignoring the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make everything instantly perfect, though. So I'm not sure what else I can say here other than to reiterate that we're improving... we're making a great product greater, and our goal is of course to minimize issues and make sure people are able to enjoy their machines.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#129 4 months ago

Well said!

#130 4 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Everybody knows I'm still here reading the responses.

This is my biggest problem with the thread and why it's not super helpful for me to post here. This thread is highlighting the worst experiences people have had with the P3. Clearly any terrible experience is too many, but there are an equal number of nearly perfect experiences with the P3 from people who are labeled as fanboys and shamed from participating. Most people fall somewhere in between... having a few easily rectified problems and just enjoying their machines. If you think I'm ignoring problem reports and negative experiences, that's pretty silly. I see the RMAs and part replacements, and I know exactly what percentage of folks have needed things replaced.
If we've reached the point where people reading the thread are concluding that it's a risk to even change modules, it's gone too far, and the people participating should be ashamed of themselves and how their words are being received. The P3 is all about modularity and swapping games, and there's no risk that swapping games will damage a module unless the module is mishandled. Swap games freely and without fear.
That much of the discussion has become about servos and 3D printed parts is a good thing. I already said we've been digging into both. Regarding STL files - we've had no problems sharing them with everybody who's asked... unless that part requires post processing before being usable. Posting the ones that don't need to be post-processed would be fine.
EDIT - Just saw Santa's update. So let's talk shipping too. The damage in his backpanel was caused by a sudden drop in the machine. The force was transferred through those to "shipping blocks" into the cabinet. Those shipping blocks protected the playfield from taking damage, which is a good thing. The cabinet damage is not a good thing. We've long been discussing adding g-shock detectors to our machines. Too many machines are getting dropped vertically - I really wish freight companies would care a bit more. As discussed, we also stopped using UPS for most shipments of our heavier playfields, and the results have been dramatic. We've seen essentially no shipping damage on separately-shipped Heist and WAMONH playfields since making that change.

This is where this thread entered the twilight zone for me. The implication is that people are encouraged to post things that negatively impact my business (and family), but when somebody posts a factual but negative summary about a situation with Zach, they're accused of slander, and then a lie is put into MY mouth as defense? No, I wouldn't tell RDoyle he was wrong, because he wasn't wrong.
I'll look forward to listening to the next podcast where Zach unfairly references this thread as conclusive evidence that the P3 and P3 supporters are terrible. Zach is not unbiased and just expressing opinions. He mixes in opinions with actual slander in a clear attempt to influence buyers. That said, we all know he's allowed to express his "opinions" because those opinions are his "product". People aren't allowed to express negativity towards HIS product without being accused of attacking the person, but there's no distinction.
What's clear is there are people who love the P3, and there are people who don't. There are people who love Zach and people who don't. People should be able to express both opinions in a discussion forum without being shamed.
Back on topic... if the point of this "open letter" thread is to make me and Multimorphic aware that our product(s) can be improved, it's an unnecessary thread, but I appreciate that people care enough to want to help us improve, and I appreciate the constructive discussions involved. If the point is vent about bad experiences and to attack a family company and convince other people not to buy its products, then mission accomplished. Well done.
We all know the P3 is different from other machines. So is the way we've built the company. We didn't start with millions of dollars of backing like AP or BoF. We didn't start with millions of dollars in preorders like JJP. We started with an idea... in my garage, and with an ever-growing team of people who saw what we were doing and wanted to get involved. We've built the company from the ground up, with a ton of hard work and years of no salaries. The first P3 prototype was built in 2012, and I still now work 14-16 hour days almost 7 days a week trying to make the company successful. We iterated prototypes for 5 years and shipped the first P3 in late 2017... 6 years ago. Since then, we've continued iterating, improving, adding features, and creating some really amazing games. Yes, we've made a ton of great decisions and clearly a few wrong ones. It's a learning and growing process, but I'm damn proud of what the team has accomplished, and I sincerely appreciate the support so many people have given us along the way. I wish everybody's experiences were flawless. I really do.
We've taken a HUGE risk trying to bring real innovation to this industry. There's no other machine out there that can do half of the things the P3 does, but the P3 can do almost everything traditional machines do. Despite that, any one thing not working correctly can sour somebody's experience - so it's easy to focus on those things and ignore everything else we're doing. On the flip side, I can assure you we're not ignoring the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make everything instantly perfect, though. So I'm not sure what else I can say here other than to reiterate that we're improving... we're making a great product greater, and our goal is of course to minimize issues and make sure people are able to enjoy their machines.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Thanks for making p3 (a real innovation)!

#131 4 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Everybody knows I'm still here reading the responses.

This is my biggest problem with the thread and why it's not super helpful for me to post here. This thread is highlighting the worst experiences people have had with the P3. Clearly any terrible experience is too many, but there are an equal number of nearly perfect experiences with the P3 from people who are labeled as fanboys and shamed from participating. Most people fall somewhere in between... having a few easily rectified problems and just enjoying their machines. If you think I'm ignoring problem reports and negative experiences, that's pretty silly. I see the RMAs and part replacements, and I know exactly what percentage of folks have needed things replaced.
If we've reached the point where people reading the thread are concluding that it's a risk to even change modules, it's gone too far, and the people participating should be ashamed of themselves and how their words are being received. The P3 is all about modularity and swapping games, and there's no risk that swapping games will damage a module unless the module is mishandled. Swap games freely and without fear.
That much of the discussion has become about servos and 3D printed parts is a good thing. I already said we've been digging into both. Regarding STL files - we've had no problems sharing them with everybody who's asked... unless that part requires post processing before being usable. Posting the ones that don't need to be post-processed would be fine.
EDIT - Just saw Santa's update. So let's talk shipping too. The damage in his backpanel was caused by a sudden drop in the machine. The force was transferred through those to "shipping blocks" into the cabinet. Those shipping blocks protected the playfield from taking damage, which is a good thing. The cabinet damage is not a good thing. We've long been discussing adding g-shock detectors to our machines. Too many machines are getting dropped vertically - I really wish freight companies would care a bit more. As discussed, we also stopped using UPS for most shipments of our heavier playfields, and the results have been dramatic. We've seen essentially no shipping damage on separately-shipped Heist and WAMONH playfields since making that change.

This is where this thread entered the twilight zone for me. The implication is that people are encouraged to post things that negatively impact my business (and family), but when somebody posts a factual but negative summary about a situation with Zach, they're accused of slander, and then a lie is put into MY mouth as defense? No, I wouldn't tell RDoyle he was wrong, because he wasn't wrong.
I'll look forward to listening to the next podcast where Zach unfairly references this thread as conclusive evidence that the P3 and P3 supporters are terrible. Zach is not unbiased and just expressing opinions. He mixes in opinions with actual slander in a clear attempt to influence buyers. That said, we all know he's allowed to express his "opinions" because those opinions are his "product". People aren't allowed to express negativity towards HIS product without being accused of attacking the person, but there's no distinction.
What's clear is there are people who love the P3, and there are people who don't. There are people who love Zach and people who don't. People should be able to express both opinions in a discussion forum without being shamed.
Back on topic... if the point of this "open letter" thread is to make me and Multimorphic aware that our product(s) can be improved, it's an unnecessary thread, but I appreciate that people care enough to want to help us improve, and I appreciate the constructive discussions involved. If the point is vent about bad experiences and to attack a family company and convince other people not to buy its products, then mission accomplished. Well done.
We all know the P3 is different from other machines. So is the way we've built the company. We didn't start with millions of dollars of backing like AP or BoF. We didn't start with millions of dollars in preorders like JJP. We started with an idea... in my garage, and with an ever-growing team of people who saw what we were doing and wanted to get involved. We've built the company from the ground up, with a ton of hard work and years of no salaries. The first P3 prototype was built in 2012, and I still now work 14-16 hour days almost 7 days a week trying to make the company successful. We iterated prototypes for 5 years and shipped the first P3 in late 2017... 6 years ago. Since then, we've continued iterating, improving, adding features, and creating some really amazing games. Yes, we've made a ton of great decisions and clearly a few wrong ones. It's a learning and growing process, but I'm damn proud of what the team has accomplished, and I sincerely appreciate the support so many people have given us along the way. I wish everybody's experiences were flawless. I really do.
We've taken a HUGE risk trying to bring real innovation to this industry. There's no other machine out there that can do half of the things the P3 does, but the P3 can do almost everything traditional machines do. Despite that, any one thing not working correctly can sour somebody's experience - so it's easy to focus on those things and ignore everything else we're doing. On the flip side, I can assure you we're not ignoring the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make everything instantly perfect, though. So I'm not sure what else I can say here other than to reiterate that we're improving... we're making a great product greater, and our goal is of course to minimize issues and make sure people are able to enjoy their machines.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Ugh, not everyone who criticizes a product is rooting for a company to fail or take food from someone child. Sometimes they want to help improve the production through discussion... But once again, they're ignored, marginalize and someone's head is placed back in the sand.

Incoming, MM Discord members to defend the product.

Edit: Grammar

#132 4 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Everybody knows I'm still here reading the responses.

This is my biggest problem with the thread and why it's not super helpful for me to post here. This thread is highlighting the worst experiences people have had with the P3. Clearly any terrible experience is too many, but there are an equal number of nearly perfect experiences with the P3 from people who are labeled as fanboys and shamed from participating. Most people fall somewhere in between... having a few easily rectified problems and just enjoying their machines. If you think I'm ignoring problem reports and negative experiences, that's pretty silly. I see the RMAs and part replacements, and I know exactly what percentage of folks have needed things replaced.
If we've reached the point where people reading the thread are concluding that it's a risk to even change modules, it's gone too far, and the people participating should be ashamed of themselves and how their words are being received. The P3 is all about modularity and swapping games, and there's no risk that swapping games will damage a module unless the module is mishandled. Swap games freely and without fear.
That much of the discussion has become about servos and 3D printed parts is a good thing. I already said we've been digging into both. Regarding STL files - we've had no problems sharing them with everybody who's asked... unless that part requires post processing before being usable. Posting the ones that don't need to be post-processed would be fine.
EDIT - Just saw Santa's update. So let's talk shipping too. The damage in his backpanel was caused by a sudden drop in the machine. The force was transferred through those to "shipping blocks" into the cabinet. Those shipping blocks protected the playfield from taking damage, which is a good thing. The cabinet damage is not a good thing. We've long been discussing adding g-shock detectors to our machines. Too many machines are getting dropped vertically - I really wish freight companies would care a bit more. As discussed, we also stopped using UPS for most shipments of our heavier playfields, and the results have been dramatic. We've seen essentially no shipping damage on separately-shipped Heist and WAMONH playfields since making that change.

This is where this thread entered the twilight zone for me. The implication is that people are encouraged to post things that negatively impact my business (and family), but when somebody posts a factual but negative summary about a situation with Zach, they're accused of slander, and then a lie is put into MY mouth as defense? No, I wouldn't tell RDoyle he was wrong, because he wasn't wrong.
I'll look forward to listening to the next podcast where Zach unfairly references this thread as conclusive evidence that the P3 and P3 supporters are terrible. Zach is not unbiased and just expressing opinions. He mixes in opinions with actual slander in a clear attempt to influence buyers. That said, we all know he's allowed to express his "opinions" because those opinions are his "product". People aren't allowed to express negativity towards HIS product without being accused of attacking the person, but there's no distinction.
What's clear is there are people who love the P3, and there are people who don't. There are people who love Zach and people who don't. People should be able to express both opinions in a discussion forum without being shamed.
Back on topic... if the point of this "open letter" thread is to make me and Multimorphic aware that our product(s) can be improved, it's an unnecessary thread, but I appreciate that people care enough to want to help us improve, and I appreciate the constructive discussions involved. If the point is vent about bad experiences and to attack a family company and convince other people not to buy its products, then mission accomplished. Well done.
We all know the P3 is different from other machines. So is the way we've built the company. We didn't start with millions of dollars of backing like AP or BoF. We didn't start with millions of dollars in preorders like JJP. We started with an idea... in my garage, and with an ever-growing team of people who saw what we were doing and wanted to get involved. We've built the company from the ground up, with a ton of hard work and years of no salaries. The first P3 prototype was built in 2012, and I still now work 14-16 hour days almost 7 days a week trying to make the company successful. We iterated prototypes for 5 years and shipped the first P3 in late 2017... 6 years ago. Since then, we've continued iterating, improving, adding features, and creating some really amazing games. Yes, we've made a ton of great decisions and clearly a few wrong ones. It's a learning and growing process, but I'm damn proud of what the team has accomplished, and I sincerely appreciate the support so many people have given us along the way. I wish everybody's experiences were flawless. I really do.
We've taken a HUGE risk trying to bring real innovation to this industry. There's no other machine out there that can do half of the things the P3 does, but the P3 can do almost everything traditional machines do. Despite that, any one thing not working correctly can sour somebody's experience - so it's easy to focus on those things and ignore everything else we're doing. On the flip side, I can assure you we're not ignoring the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make everything instantly perfect, though. So I'm not sure what else I can say here other than to reiterate that we're improving... we're making a great product greater, and our goal is of course to minimize issues and make sure people are able to enjoy their machines.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

And all of that is fine as your take Gerry, no need for either of us to waste time on that. However, you said Doyle is not wrong. And his statement was about losing distribution rights because of something shady. I assumed you wouldn’t agree with that because it wasn’t the truth, though you said it is. Please explain to everyone then what that was because it would be news to me, past what I explained, being I was not wanting to inventory games.

#133 4 months ago
Quoted from timmmmyboy:

FWIW when our 3D printed flipper snapped I asked if I could just get the STL as I have a very nice 3D printer here and could get the game back in service quicker. I was told it was too complicated and had to wait for them to ship me a new flipper. Which was frustrating to say the least. Agree with the thought that if your going to use anything FDM printed you should be ready and willing to supply the files to let someone print on demand.

Too complicated? What does that even mean? Your 3d printer isn't as smart as their 3d printer?

As someone who has been 3d printing for years this would have frustrated the hell out of me.

EDIT: Just saw the post regarding post processing... I still don't understand how it could be too complicated. Remove supports, clean up any rough surfaces etc... even if it requires complicated post processing I'd prefer to have the STL and be able to give it a try rather than waiting days or weeks for a new part to be shipped. That's the beauty of 3d printing, send 1's and 0's rather than shipping plastic.

#134 4 months ago
Quoted from P1nhead:

Thanks for making p3 (a real innovation)!

And the P-ROC and P3-ROC board systems that were a major catalyst for homebrew pinball, and the entry of so many new pinball companies that could never develop their own proprietary systems.

If you love the hobby, not only playing but the engineering, rich history, personalities…Gerry and Multimorphic deserve major respect as belonging to a select group of real innovators and industry entrepreneurs.

The P3 obviously needs to continue to evolve but to call it “a mess,” “prototype,” etc. is a gross exaggeration and disservice IMO. Overall it’s an impressively engineered, very well built machine with some repairable weak points that have surfaced with broader, heavier use and a growing base of diverse owners. That doesn’t discount the disappointment and frustration of buying a very expensive machine that doesn’t work out of the box or requires one too many repairs, but also shouldn’t overshadow the many pros and growing list of great, fun games.

It’s certainly not for everyone, but it would be a shame to rely too heavily on this thread in making a buying decision. It’s a big, expensive purchase of a different animal that should be well understood, ideally by “kicking the tires” and playing an actual machine.

Edit - And I’m not a MM Discord member or fanboy type, but love pinball and cool, innovative engineering so am willing to work through the growing pains of an innovative product with a responsive company.

#135 4 months ago
Quoted from RandomTask:

Ugh, not everyone who criticizes a product is rooting for a company to fail or take food from someone child. Sometimes they want to help improve the production through discussion... But once again, they're ignored, marginalize and someone's head is placed back in the sand.

Your takeaway from my post is that my head is in the sand and that I marginalize experience and ignore criticisms? This is why I shouldn't post. People read my words and then continue with their agendas. Pretty sure I described that we were addressing many of the issues discussed and that we agreed we had other areas to improve. I'm not going to detail all of our internal activities.

Incoming, MM Discord members to defend the product.

Thank you for proving my point.

Quoted from ZMeny:

And all of that is fine as your take Gerry, no need for either of us to waste time on that. However, you said Doyle is not wrong. And his statement was about losing distribution rights because of something shady. I assumed you wouldn’t agree with that because it wasn’t the truth, though you said it is. Please explain to everyone then what that was because it would be news to me, past what I explained, being I was not wanting to inventory games.

The deal we agreed on to convince you to take a P3 to SFGE a few years back was we would send you our updated LL-EE artwork, and you would do a full review video to help promote it. Then I would hang out in the booth with you to help you promote. We sent you the artwork, you brought the machine, and then you largely abandoned the booth, leaving me to promote it on your behalf. No video was every released. You said after the show you didn't think recording a video was worth it to you. Deal be damned. Since then all kinds of mistruths and slanderous statements made on your podcast mixed in with negative opinions. Yes, you also wouldn't agree to buy machines to inventory. I forget the words you used... "a ton of"? The request was ONE (after the sale of your previous one)... so you'd have a machine to show off. Clearly you were never a P3 distributor... you just happened to inherit the one machine from Larry.

Quoted from luckymoey:

And the P-ROC and P3-ROC board systems that were a major catalyst for homebrew pinball, and the entry of so many new pinball companies that could never develop their own proprietary systems.
If you love the hobby, not only playing but the engineering, rich history, personalities…Gerry and Multimorphic deserve major respect as belonging to a select group of real innovators and industry entrepreneurs.
The P3 obviously needs to continue to evolve but to call it “a mess,” “prototype,” etc. is a gross exaggeration and disservice IMO. Overall it’s an impressively engineered, very well built machine with some repairable weak points that have surfaced with broader, heavier use and a growing base of diverse owners. That doesn’t discount the disappointment and frustration of buying a very expensive machine that doesn’t work out of the box or requires one too many repairs, but also shouldn’t overshadow the many pros and growing list of great, fun games.
It’s certainly not for everyone, but it would be a shame to rely too heavily on this thread in making a buying decision. It’s a big, expensive purchase of a different animal that should be well understood, ideally by “kicking the tires” and playing an actual machine.

Thank you for the kind words.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#136 4 months ago

For the record I like the MM P3 platform... I have no agenda. You just need to improve on how you take professional criticism.

#137 4 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Everybody knows I'm still here reading the responses.

This is my biggest problem with the thread and why it's not super helpful for me to post here. This thread is highlighting the worst experiences people have had with the P3. Clearly any terrible experience is too many, but there are an equal number of nearly perfect experiences with the P3 from people who are labeled as fanboys and shamed from participating. Most people fall somewhere in between... having a few easily rectified problems and just enjoying their machines. If you think I'm ignoring problem reports and negative experiences, that's pretty silly. I see the RMAs and part replacements, and I know exactly what percentage of folks have needed things replaced.
If we've reached the point where people reading the thread are concluding that it's a risk to even change modules, it's gone too far, and the people participating should be ashamed of themselves and how their words are being received. The P3 is all about modularity and swapping games, and there's no risk that swapping games will damage a module unless the module is mishandled. Swap games freely and without fear.
That much of the discussion has become about servos and 3D printed parts is a good thing. I already said we've been digging into both. Regarding STL files - we've had no problems sharing them with everybody who's asked... unless that part requires post processing before being usable. Posting the ones that don't need to be post-processed would be fine.
EDIT - Just saw Santa's update. So let's talk shipping too. The damage in his backpanel was caused by a sudden drop in the machine. The force was transferred through those to "shipping blocks" into the cabinet. Those shipping blocks protected the playfield from taking damage, which is a good thing. The cabinet damage is not a good thing. We've long been discussing adding g-shock detectors to our machines. Too many machines are getting dropped vertically - I really wish freight companies would care a bit more. As discussed, we also stopped using UPS for most shipments of our heavier playfields, and the results have been dramatic. We've seen essentially no shipping damage on separately-shipped Heist and WAMONH playfields since making that change.

This is where this thread entered the twilight zone for me. The implication is that people are encouraged to post things that negatively impact my business (and family), but when somebody posts a factual but negative summary about a situation with Zach, they're accused of slander, and then a lie is put into MY mouth as defense? No, I wouldn't tell RDoyle he was wrong, because he wasn't wrong.
I'll look forward to listening to the next podcast where Zach unfairly references this thread as conclusive evidence that the P3 and P3 supporters are terrible. Zach is not unbiased and just expressing opinions. He mixes in opinions with actual slander in a clear attempt to influence buyers. That said, we all know he's allowed to express his "opinions" because those opinions are his "product". People aren't allowed to express negativity towards HIS product without being accused of attacking the person, but there's no distinction.
What's clear is there are people who love the P3, and there are people who don't. There are people who love Zach and people who don't. People should be able to express both opinions in a discussion forum without being shamed.
Back on topic... if the point of this "open letter" thread is to make me and Multimorphic aware that our product(s) can be improved, it's an unnecessary thread, but I appreciate that people care enough to want to help us improve, and I appreciate the constructive discussions involved. If the point is vent about bad experiences and to attack a family company and convince other people not to buy its products, then mission accomplished. Well done.
We all know the P3 is different from other machines. So is the way we've built the company. We didn't start with millions of dollars of backing like AP or BoF. We didn't start with millions of dollars in preorders like JJP. We started with an idea... in my garage, and with an ever-growing team of people who saw what we were doing and wanted to get involved. We've built the company from the ground up, with a ton of hard work and years of no salaries. The first P3 prototype was built in 2012, and I still now work 14-16 hour days almost 7 days a week trying to make the company successful. We iterated prototypes for 5 years and shipped the first P3 in late 2017... 6 years ago. Since then, we've continued iterating, improving, adding features, and creating some really amazing games. Yes, we've made a ton of great decisions and clearly a few wrong ones. It's a learning and growing process, but I'm damn proud of what the team has accomplished, and I sincerely appreciate the support so many people have given us along the way. I wish everybody's experiences were flawless. I really do.
We've taken a HUGE risk trying to bring real innovation to this industry. There's no other machine out there that can do half of the things the P3 does, but the P3 can do almost everything traditional machines do. Despite that, any one thing not working correctly can sour somebody's experience - so it's easy to focus on those things and ignore everything else we're doing. On the flip side, I can assure you we're not ignoring the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make everything instantly perfect, though. So I'm not sure what else I can say here other than to reiterate that we're improving... we're making a great product greater, and our goal is of course to minimize issues and make sure people are able to enjoy their machines.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

And now you brought it back with this post. What I was really trying to say is you are well spoken and were helping to minimize an otherwise damning thread. Now I don't exactly come here often, but I haven't really noticed a avalanche of P3 complaints, I feel like there would be much more of a pile on, after 6 years, if it was really mostly horrible experiences. Personally I have never come across a P3 game in the wild, so I have never had a chance to try it, I think it's a marvel of production and wish we saw something new with every pinball game but there isn't enough of it(I mean from all pinball companies). Definitely it's a risk trying something new, there's definitely plenty of pins that are absolutely doing something new, but not in a way that's enjoyable.

I'm curious if people are mostly satisfied with the static lower part of the machine, and if there's room for having different designs for the lower playfield to further add to the variety. I know the fact it's a video screen technically allows for variety, and going further with the modularity probably just adds to the headaches and problems.

#138 4 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Your takeaway from my post is that my head is in the sand and that I marginalize experience and ignore criticisms? This is why I shouldn't post. People read my words and then continue with their agendas. Pretty sure I described that we were addressing many of the issues discussed and that we agreed we had other areas to improve. I'm not going to detail all of our internal activities.

Thank you for proving my point.

The deal we agreed on to convince you to take a P3 to SFGE a few years back was we would send you our updated LL-EE artwork, and you would do a full review video to help promote it. Then I would hang out in the booth with you to help you promote. We sent you the artwork, you brought the machine, and then you largely abandoned the booth, leaving me to promote it on your behalf. No video was every released. You said after the show you didn't think recording a video was worth it to you. Deal be damned. Since then all kinds of mistruths and slanderous statements made on your podcast mixed in with negative opinions. Yes, you also wouldn't agree to buy machines to inventory. I forget the words you used... "a ton of"? The request was ONE (after the sale of your previous one)... so you'd have a machine to show off. Clearly you were never a P3 distributor... you just happened to inherit the one machine from Larry.

Thank you for the kind words.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

I remember it much differently, but regardless, that’s a stretch for you to support Doyle’s generalizing statement about shady business practices, so I’m damn glad I asked for clarification. I appreciate your response so that people actually see what gasp-worthy practices for our business.

Let people know also that you sent new artwork for Lexi because, well, the artwork on our game was curling up and I said maybe it wouldn’t be a great look at a show for the artwork to be falling off everywhere and looking like crap.

Keep in mind, SDTM is not Flip N Out Pinball. Also, I remember asking about a Cosmic Cart module as a loaner to do a video so we could help sell some products, but you said that paying for shipping of the module wasn’t in the Multimorphic budget, so you encouraged me to buy a module instead, which I wasn’t interested in after already dumping 11k+ on a product that wasn’t selling units. And ultimately we chose not to do videos on product we weren’t going to sell.

There was no deal in place about you coming to the show. And I was in the booth cmon, hell Kugler was there with AP.

Sigh. People appreciate your engineering talents Gerry. People see you as intelligent and a good pinball creator. There’s just no winning over people when you get loose on actual truths because you’re emotionally upset. Stick to honesty; it always prevails. Even if it upsets people and gets you in trouble (partly why I get shit here and there), at least it’s the truth.

#139 4 months ago
Quoted from ZMeny:

I remember it much differently, but regardless, that’s a stretch for you to support Doyle’s generalizing statement about shady business practices, so I’m damn glad I asked for clarification.

Quoted from ZMeny:

There’s just no winning over people when you get loose on actual truths because you’re emotionally upset. Stick to honesty; it always prevails. Even if it upsets people and gets you in trouble (partly why I get shit here and there), at least it’s the truth.

I'm trying very hard to stay out of this whole thread but I have to say:

this is a silly argument. You clearly both remember the situation differently and you both believe it is the truth. You would both pass polygraph tests.

Why bother to assert that your memory is the truth and be surprised that someone else would do the same?

Unrelated: anyone else think Rashomon would make a great pinball theme? Someone told me it would, but I sure don't remember it that way.

#140 4 months ago

Zacharoni and Gerbear = analysis paralysis?

#141 4 months ago
Quoted from Mocean:

I'm trying very hard to stay out of this whole thread but I have to say:
this is a silly argument. You clearly both remember the situation differently and you both believe it is the truth. You would both pass polygraph tests.
Why bother to assert that your memory is the truth and be surprised that someone else would do the same?
Unrelated: anyone else think Rashomon would make a great pinball theme? Someone told me it would, but I sure don't remember it that way.

100% agree. Which is why I was thankful that Gerry explained why he thought I was guilty of shady business practices because his explanation refuted that entirely, thankfully.

Gerry felt the need to come in and take some swings. Im just here to provide clarity on some cleverly unclear statements being made that affect me. Everything else, I really couldn’t give two shits about. Some people like the p3 platform. Some of us don’t. Not a big deal. I didn’t write the open letter. I didn’t come in here making claims until I was brought up.

#142 4 months ago
Quoted from Mocean:

I'm trying very hard to stay out of this whole thread but I have to say:
this is a silly argument. You clearly both remember the situation differently and you both believe it is the truth. You would both pass polygraph tests.
Why bother to assert that your memory is the truth and be surprised that someone else would do the same?
Unrelated: anyone else think Rashomon would make a great pinball theme? Someone told me it would, but I sure don't remember it that way.

Side note: why not tag quote Gerry too? I appreciate your work in the industry though.

#143 4 months ago
Quoted from ZMeny:

Side note: why not tag quote Gerry too?

I thought your statement about remembering it differently perfectly captured the essence of the issue.

It wasnt intentionally one-sided, but I certainly do see how it could be perceived that way.

Quoted from ZMeny:

I appreciate your work in the industry though.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I hope I do a better job at most everything else that I do for the industry than I do posting on pinside... this is not where I do my best work, that's for sure.

#144 4 months ago

My agenda is to continue having non-emotional conversations about what's reasonable to expect in pinball manufacturing.

I'm not interested in dumping on Gerry. I don't want Multimorphic to fail. I don't care who was attending their booth for the appropriate amount of time.

(This has nothing to do with the topic but fwiw I 100% recognize Multimorphic and their team's contributions to homebrew and indie pinball. Fantastic additions to the hobby.)

Every single time I try and discuss the P3 I end up just wishing I hadn't bothered, it's just an emotional third rail for some. This is no different, so I'll make this my last word. But for fans of the company or the product my suggestion is relax the emotional responses and recognize that improving the experience by not using incorrect 3D printed parts will lead to more fans of the product you like.

#145 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

My agenda is to continue having non-emotional conversations about what's reasonable to expect in pinball manufacturing.
I'm not interested in dumping on Gerry. I don't want Multimorphic to fail. I don't care who was attending their booth for the appropriate amount of time.
Every single time I try and discuss the P3 I end up just wishing I hadn't bothered, it's just an emotional third rail for some. This is no different, so I'll make this my last word. But for fans of the company or the product my suggestion is relax the emotional responses and recognize that improving the experience by not using incorrect 3D printed parts will lead to more fans of the product you like.

And your problem is that anyone that doesn’t see the way YOU do is automatically an emotional fanboy.

You just fail to understand that folks that have not had issues with their P3 wouldn’t see the point in changing anything since it ain’t broke (for THEM). Instead of trying to understand their perspective you turn it into accusations of being emotional. This makes intelligent conversation pretty much impossible. The old “if you aren’t with us you are against us” philosophy. It’s not just you or this hobby. The whole world is turning into binary views in everything with no room for diverging opinions.

#146 4 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

The whole world is turning into binary views in everything with no room for diverging opinions.

No, it's not.

The irony is this is a binary opinion in and of itself. There are plenty of places with lovely shades of gray still out there. If you're not experiencing them, pop your bubble.

#147 4 months ago

I appreciate the tech of the P3 and I think some of the games are a lot of fun. I played Final Resistance at Expo and loved it! It just seems like almost every time I'm around a P3 system there are reliability issues. We used to have a P3 on route around here and it was almost always broken, the owners ended up selling the system for like $4k partially broken at MGC a few years back. The first time I played Weird Al this Summer at a friends' house the right upper flipper just stopped working mid-game for me.-I put maybe 3 games on it. At Expo yesterday on Final Destination the Danesi lock wasn't working on the game and the module had to be swapped out. Then after the new module was swapped in the game froze mid game with the lock mechs all stuck in the up position. -this was all in about 30 minutes at the booth. Maybe I'm just bad luck but I would have to say my confidence in the reliability of the system isn't very high based on the experiences I've had around the system. It's a fun system and I'll happily play it at a show or if it's someone else's game, but there's no way in hell I'd actually buy one for home because I don't need the headaches.

#148 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

No, it's not.
The irony is this is a binary opinion in and of itself. There are plenty of places with lovely shades of gray still out there. If you're not experiencing them, pop your bubble.

Come to Australia.

#149 4 months ago

There’s like three or four threads going on in this thread. Fascinating read while I sit and shit.

I have no stakes in this game.

#150 4 months ago
Quoted from RandomTask:

You just need to improve on how you take professional criticism.

Agreed. And in many other areas too!

Quoted from RandomTask:

For the record I like the MM P3 platform.

Thank you. I actually appreciate your level headed and logical feedback in the podcasts.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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