(Topic ID: 345386)

An open letter to Multimorphic

By SantaEatsCheese

4 months ago


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  • 251 posts
  • 75 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 15 days ago by arcyallen
  • Topic is favorited by 30 Pinsiders

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There are 251 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 6.
#51 4 months ago
Quoted from P1nhead:

Okay then mm can build a high temp voron (active heated chamber) like I did with the new revo high temp and print the exotic stuff just as fast as Bambu. Klipper and octoprint are great. I'm slicer curious so I move around but always come back to prusa. High temp voron is about the same price as the x1e but you could make it 350mm^3
I'd be curious to know what mm has for printers. Prusa? I3 clones?

I have no idea what Multimorphic is using, but the part prints in the pictures don't look PRUSA-worthy.

PRUSA is kind of like The One. You can do whatever you want in exploring 3D printing and other offerings, as long as you come back to The One. MK4 isn't the most advanced 3D printer even though it just launched, but there's a reason practically everyone else rips off PRUSA's open source work (and many don't contribute back themselves) - it's great.

#52 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I know why you say that, and fair enough, but that's a little strong for me. I think they've innovated and moved the industry forward and we're better for having them push the competition.
I print on a Prusa, and it's a company I'm proud to support, but I'd consider adding a Bambu myself.

Bambu definitely shocked 3D printing and woke PRUSA up on their mountaintop throne (and others), and that's GOOD. BUT, the theft/rebranding other's work as theirs and not giving back to open source is a cancer that will only get worse if they don't pay a price for doing it.

#53 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

RC servos should not be used in pinball for ANY critical/gameplay items (bling only), and ideally not at all in a pinball machine. They just are not reliable enough

Let's not get crazy. You can buy good servos and you can buy cheap servos. A $20 servo is cheap. A $100+ servo is where you want to be for reliability, strength, etc.. You think guys with $20,000 R/C jets are gonna go "welp, those servos keep failing". The engineering of a servo's linkage is a HUGE reason why they are probably failing. You have to know how to work with them properly.

I doubt anyone using servos in pinball has even done a force diagram or other basic engineering stuff to see what is even going on with the forces in their linkages. They all seem to view it as a way to try and get cheap motion, when actual quality servos are more expensive than the real pinball mechs are.

#54 4 months ago

I would like to see full replacement kits, be it nylon or injection molded parts, available for the early adopter games for the base and modules so when a 3d part breaks, I can go in one time and replace them all. Trying to keep maintenance time down on a local collector's game will mean a lot to me.

Breaking down the game once instead of each time a 3d part breaks, will save me time in the long term.

#55 4 months ago
Quoted from arcyallen:

When I hear this half my head screams "That's awesome! Congrats!" and the other half wants to scream "Liar! You're a liar!", haha. Just to confirm, you have eight or so modules and NONE of them have had "any trouble at all"? If so that's great, and I'm envious. I've owned a couple dozen pins and only one lasted 100 plays before needing to have the playfield lifted. When someone says their experience is 1000% the opposite I find it interesting to say the least.

I have Al,heist,cart,Lexi.sold cannon because I never played it and a local guy wanted one.
No I have not have any problems at all but I do have a lot of other games so it does not get the play time others may experience.

#56 4 months ago

It is commendable P3 has stayed open 10 years.....these games are made in Central Texas...the Round Rock/Austin area...which is probably the worst area in Texas you could seek to manufacture anything that might get a little dirt on your hands. There's not much in the way of industry/fabrication/materials availability, a heavy tax base, and a high cost of living.

#57 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Eh, I mean it's cool for what it is, but it's mostly aimed at businesses who won't blink at paying double for keeping their machines off wireless networks. The active heated enclosure is cool but it's not a game changer really? I don't think anyone needs to spend what they're asking for it.

Garolite bed and a ruby nozel on a cheaper printer can do a lot for you. If any company says "we're using carbon fiber nylon, and we've torture tested our parts" then I'm willing to suspend disbelief about some of the FDM issues. But until they say that I'm assuming it's all PLA.

Nylon-CF? create a voron/Valkyrie capable of peek-cf20 - you will spend well over $2500. I can hit 80c chamber (70c in the dry box) and maintain it.

I think if companies are going to put 3d printed parts into production machines there are diy industrial and true industrial printers that open a world of materials better suited to the task vs pla abs asa petg etc

#58 4 months ago

I appreciate you starting this thread (I read the entire post). I do not read the P3 Multimorphic threads because I do not own one. I have played the P3 system before and really do not consider it a "true" pinball machine but a hybrid type game. There is nothing wrong with that and I respect P3 for their creativity and ingenuity. But when I buy a pinball machine I know I am buying something that will require some maintenance. What I do not want to buy is a problem which is exactly what you describe. I do want them to succeed because I think it helps the hobby. I hope P3 will make some changes to make their product more reliable.

#59 4 months ago

On a recent Pinball Show, Zach Meny, who rarely has anything bad to say about a pin, didn't pull any punches on his experience owning a P3. He couldn't get rid of his fast enough. Had to sell it with a non working topper.

I'm a huge Weird Al fan. Used to listen to his college radio show in San Luis Obispo way back in the day. Met him twice (super nice guy). If someone with advanced tech skills can't keep it operational, then I'm out. It's a shame as it's my grail theme.

#60 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I would like to see full replacement kits, be it nylon or injection molded parts, available for the early adopter games for the base and modules so when a 3d part breaks, I can go in one time and replace them all. Trying to keep maintenance time down on a local collector's game will mean a lot to me.
Breaking down the game once instead of each time a 3d part breaks, will save me time in the long term.

I hesitate to suggest this almost, because people shouldn’t have to do this, but they could release the STLs for their parts so people could print their own instead of having to wait for customer service to respond and ship a part.

#61 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

On a recent Pinball Show, Zach Meny, who rarely has anything bad to say about a pin, didn't pull any punches on his experience owning a P3. He couldn't get rid of his fast enough. Had to sell it with a non working topper.
I'm a huge Weird Al fan. Used to listen to his college radio show in San Luis Obispo way back in the day. Met him twice (super nice guy). If someone with advanced tech skills can't keep it operational, then I'm out. It's a shame as it's my grail theme.

Zach wasn’t complaining about repair issues but the duel flipper buttons and very different menu/diagnostic system. And don’t recall him saying anything about getting rid of it fast enough. Believe he got on trade and flipped like he does dozens of other games.

There are plenty of fair pros and cons to discuss about the P3., but the “not real pinball” is ridiculous at this point IMO, especially with the launch of Final Resistance.

#62 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:On a recent Pinball Show, Zach Meny, who rarely has anything bad to say about a pin, didn't pull any punches on his experience owning a P3. He couldn't get rid of his fast enough. Had to sell it with a non working topper.
I'm a huge Weird Al fan. Used to listen to his college radio show in San Luis Obispo way back in the day. Met him twice (super nice guy). If someone with advanced tech skills can't keep it operational, then I'm out. It's a shame as it's my grail theme.

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor. Zach may be a great personality for a podcast but something that monumental gives me pause.

#63 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

I’m not a fan of 3D printed parts in pinball, including mods, but that’s based on the lower quality prints I’ve experienced, mainly in Spooky machines.

Zach wasn’t complaining about repair issues but the duel flipper buttons and very different menu/diagnostic system. And don’t recall him saying anything about getting rid of it fast enough. Believe he got on trade and flipped like he does dozens of other games.
There are plenty of fair pros and cons to discuss about the P3., but the “not real pinball” is ridiculous IMO especially with the launch of Final Resistance.

In episode 138 at the 49 minute mark, he calls it a "design mess", mentions the motor on the topper wasn't working, talks about how it wasn't identifying the modules and how the ball would hop on the modules, how it's programmed wrong on the screen and the buttons aren't labeled correctly. He also criticizes the operating system.

#64 4 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor.

Really? First time I'm hearing this.

#65 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Zach wasn’t complaining about repair issues but the duel flipper buttons and very different menu/diagnostic system. And don’t recall him saying anything about getting rid of it fast enough. Believe he got on trade and flipped like he does dozens of other games.
There are plenty of fair pros and cons to discuss about the P3., but the “not real pinball” is ridiculous at this point IMO with the launch of Final Resistance.

I REALLY like the more conventional look of Final Resistance with more fixed inserts and a constantly displayed Italian bottom. Heist looks very cool to me as a theme but the full screen video was off putting for some reason.

I'm on the other side of town from Multimorphic and back in the day Gerry was kind enough to have me over at his house multiple times. I bought the Dredd he used as one of the early test beds for his board set. He's a great guy. It pains me that this thread might be causing a lot of stress for him and his team. But the OP appears to have stated his experience well and accurately so there's value in that. I hope Multimorphic continues to evolve and improve. I'd probably have one of their machines if the lead times were shorter (and to be honest my employment situation isn't the best right now so that does help...anybody need an old executive escalation customer service rep? lol). I'm a big baby when instant gratification is denied.

#66 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Really? First time I'm hearing this.

I don’t know any inside dirt, but it happened

#67 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

In episode 138 at the 49 minute mark, he calls it a "design mess", mentions the motor on the topper wasn't working, talks about how it wasn't identifying the modules and how the ball would hop on the modules, how it's programmed wrong on the screen and the buttons aren't labeled correctly. He also criticizes the operating system.

Don’t want to belabor, but if you’re truly interested in P3 should keep his comments in perspective and research further. The hop between modules is a 15 minute easy adjustment of wall/scoop height. It’s not programmed wrong and the buttons aren’t labeled incorrectly, the diagnostic menu system is not intuitive and very different from traditional pinball. I agree with him that this is a con that should be improved but is minor in the scheme of owing the system. The operating architecture itself is absolutely fine, certainly more robust than the mess of Pinball Brothers and ever changing Spooky system. It’s basically the same as American Pinball (without the polished user interface) who uses Multimorphic’s boards.

#68 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Don’t want to belabor, but if you’re truly interested in P3 should keep his comments in perspective and research further. The hop between modules is a 15 minute easy adjustment of wall/scoop height. It’s not programmed wrong and the buttons aren’t labeled incorrectly, the diagnostic menu system is not intuitive and very different from traditional pinball. I agree with him that this is a con that should be improved but is minor in the scheme of owing the system. The operating architecture / system itself is absolutely fine, certainly more robust than the mess of Pinball Brothers and ever changing Spooky system. It’s basically the same as American Pinball (without the polished user interface) who uses Multimorphic’s boards.

Fair enough...thank you for the clarification.

I wasn't basing my decision to pass on owning a P3 on Zach's statements but on others I've read including the Op of this thread.

#69 4 months ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Don’t want to belabor, but if you’re truly interested in P3 should keep his comments in perspective and research further. The hop between modules is a 15 minute easy adjustment of wall/scoop height. It’s not programmed wrong and the buttons aren’t labeled incorrectly, the diagnostic menu system is not intuitive and very different from traditional pinball. I agree with him that this is a con that should be improved but is minor in the scheme of owing the system. The operating architecture itself is absolutely fine, certainly more robust than the mess of Pinball Brothers and ever changing Spooky system. It’s basically the same as American Pinball (without the polished user interface) who uses Multimorphic’s boards.

Can you clarify — the servo scoops have to be adjusted every time you switch modules?? Or is it a one time thing or?

#70 4 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Let's not get crazy. You can buy good servos and you can buy cheap servos. A $20 servo is cheap. A $100+ servo is where you want to be for reliability, strength, etc.. You think guys with $20,000 R/C jets are gonna go "welp, those servos keep failing". The engineering of a servo's linkage is a HUGE reason why they are probably failing. You have to know how to work with them properly.
I doubt anyone using servos in pinball has even done a force diagram or other basic engineering stuff to see what is even going on with the forces in their linkages. They all seem to view it as a way to try and get cheap motion, when actual quality servos are more expensive than the real pinball mechs are.

Let's live in reality. Pinball manufacturers that are BOM-sensitive are not going to use $100+ servos. And you're right, they're being used as a cheap shortcut when they're really neither for pinball in practice.

#71 4 months ago

I’ve worked on hundreds of pinball machines and have yet to come across a servo or a 3D printed mechanical part.

Maybe there’s a reason for that.

#72 4 months ago

Labyrinth has three $10 servos. Can’t tell if the gears they drive are 3D printed or not. Photos weren’t the best.

I looked them up and the servos at least have metal parts. My memory is that Spooky had issues with plastic ones. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

I just don’t have the experience here to comment here on reliability. The Labyrinth use doesn’t interact with the ball I don’t think?

#73 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I just don’t have the experience here to comment here on reliability. The Labyrinth use doesn’t interact with the ball I don’t think?

The servos just drive the PF toys (fireys, worm, ludo)

#74 4 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

The servos just drive the PF toys (fireys, worm, ludo)

So when they break in a month the games will still be playable?

#75 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

So when they break in a month the games will still be playable?

I have over 2800 plays on a servo that receives multiple direct hits (amh).

I have 6 servos on NBXr that receive direct hits and have roughly 800 games without failure so far.

#76 4 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

The servos just drive the PF toys (fireys, worm, ludo)

I need to watch more gameplay, but they just pop up and down right? And I assume the servos are more flexible than solenoids for speed control, animation etc.

That feels totally reasonable to me.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of another game, but I think there's a difference between using different tech to accomplish specific goals (make a non-ball interactive toy move up and down) vs changing long accepted pinball practices.

Which isn't to say nothing in pinball should ever change.

But if you're going to take something that's worked for decades, and survived the hell of a steel ball bearing being smashed around by high voltage, there should be a real reason to change it.

#77 4 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Can you clarify — the servo scoops have to be adjusted every time you switch modules?? Or is it a one time thing or?

I have the original coil system which doesn’t require adjustment, and am 99% sure the servo set up is the same. The servos are actually suppose to be easier to level through the software vs. having to do mechanically under the playfield.

#78 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I hesitate to suggest this almost, because people shouldn’t have to do this, but they could release the STLs for their parts so people could print their own instead of having to wait for customer service to respond and ship a part.

I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that. I think it should be almost a requirement for companies using 3d printed parts. As long as the thing isn't entirely 3d printed there is not much risk, it's not like people are going to print a whole new machine.

24
#79 4 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor. Zach may be a great personality for a podcast but something that monumental gives me pause.

Please provide evidence, otherwise it’s just a bad attempt at slandering my business publicly. Even Gerry would tell you you’re wrong buddy. Criticism of my opinions are fine, but lies are not okay with me.

#80 4 months ago

When you can't attack the argument, attack the person. The old "shady shit I can't tell you about, because only my Canadian girlfriend you've never met knows the details".

Ad hominem is a tale as old as time.

I don't want Multimorphic or the P3 to fail. Scott is my friend, I hope Final Resistance is their most popular title ever!

I just don't think people should have to put up with machines breaking because they're using 3D printed parts. We should be able to reasonably expect more for the costs of modern games.

#81 4 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor. Zach may be a great personality for a podcast but something that monumental gives me pause.

He is such a stand up guy, no idea what you are talking about. /s

Screenshot_20231021-161042 (resized).pngScreenshot_20231021-161042 (resized).png
#82 4 months ago
Quoted from Venetic:

He is such a stand up guy, no idea what you are talking about. /s[quoted image]

Haha nice. Yeah, again, I’m not sure my opinion reflects something shady I did business-wise to his suggested removal as a distributor. Any insight there or just more out-of-context banter that still makes me shake my head? Cmon man, uncalled for, but funny that you felt the need to share that. No worries, I have no desire to interact with that mess, but I’m sure a bunch of other people don’t appreciate your move there.

#83 4 months ago

Ok

#84 4 months ago
Quoted from Venetic:

He is such a stand up guy, no idea what you are talking about. /s[quoted image]

Hmmm let me look up some out of context postings from you from a private discord... Oh wait I have integrity and I'm not a cry baby with a grudge.

#85 4 months ago
Quoted from RandomTask:

Hmmm let me look up some out of context postings from you from a private discord... Oh wait I have integrity and I'm not a cry baby with a grudge.

crybaby (resized).jpgcrybaby (resized).jpg
#86 4 months ago

I’ve told people in this hobby to go fuck themselves. If anyone has a screenshot feel free to post it.

It will not make 3D parts magically turn into steel but it might be funny.

#87 4 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Not sure I would use Zach as a great resource about the P3. A few years ago he pulled some shady shit that forced the absolute nicest guy in pinball (Gerry S) to end his relationship with him as a distributor. Zach may be a great personality for a podcast but something that monumental gives me pause.

The “shady” thing we did was being early into our business (first 6 months I think) and not being comfortable buying a lot of inventory on p3 machines when we were having trouble selling any. That has nothing really negative to do with our business or Multimorphic.

Still not sure why I was even brought up in this thread.

#88 4 months ago
83draf (resized).jpg83draf (resized).jpg
#89 4 months ago

So on subject,

For those that are really dedicated to the system, it would be really nice if there were options for upgrading/replacing certain modules. The servos seem to be cheap off the shelf remote control airplane servos, but if people who knew what they were talking about could suggest servos that were more reliable, maybe people replacing their servos could upgrade them to something more reliable as they break.

On the 3d printing part, if the files were released, perhaps some pinside shops could pop up offering superior replacement parts so that if people did have 3d parts break, they could at their own cost choose to replace them with stronger pieces.

I am glad to see Multimorphic is already planning on making some of the changes I've suggested such as minimizing the use of servos. I'd encourage them to do the same on the 3d printed parts (as others have said) and on the optos.

I just sold my last module and have said my piece on the warranty transfer and hope Multimorphic will fulfil their promise to make sure customers are supported. I'm sure there has to be a legal reason for the change.

I still think their technical support is fantastic, although not everyone seems to have had that experience.

I still think the Multimorphic games I had were by and large fantastic (Weird Al/Heist). Final Resistance looks amazing (Danesi!). I'd still have my system if I could keep it running.

By and large the base system is/was reliable for me. If they can make their modules as reliable as they are fun I think they can be a real contender in the industry..

To all the content creators out there throwing grenades at each other. I really enjoy listening to your podcasts while working on machines.

Quoted from ZMeny:

Still not sure why I was even brought up in this thread.

Zach,

I brought you up in this thread in the opening post as I listened to you talk about the Weird Al you had in a recent podcast and your frustration with the multi flipper button system. Was not trying to throw you under the bus but to comment on the same thing you were mentioning. I got used to the seperate buttons for upper and lower flippers but watched a line of people playing on my machine at the pinball show struggle with it. You can get used to it in a few days, but its hard to do on location. Also... don't ever stop the screaming eagle in the pinball market trends section.

#90 4 months ago
Quoted from ZMeny:

The “shady” thing we did was being early into our business (first 6 months I think) and not being comfortable buying a lot of inventory on p3 machines when we were having trouble selling any. That has nothing really negative to do with our business or Multimorphic.
Still not sure why I was even brought up in this thread.

The usual suspects that won't hear a bad word about MM did what they always do and drag attention away from a valid discussion that may show MM in a grey light, to something irrelevant and calculated to take the thread offtopic and cause angst.

That's what's happening here, and that's what will always happen if there is the slightest problem highlighted.

Ignore their shit. You wouldn't reward a dog that shit on the carpet.

#91 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I’ve told people in this hobby to go fuck themselves.

I'm still waiting to experience this special moment. Almost as prized as the downvotes from dingleberry I enjoyed.

#92 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I'm still waiting to experience this special moment. Almost as prized as the downvotes from dingleberry I enjoyed.

I'll never get my get fucked. He has me on ignore.

At least he's not as childish as some who hide their posts from me too.

#93 4 months ago
Quoted from ZMeny:

Still not sure why I was even brought up in this thread.

Yeah...that was my bad and I apologize. I had just listened to that episode and was chiming in on your experience. I had zero idea it would go sideways like this and my intentions were not unkind. In my experience, you're an honest businessman and you put on a terrific podcast with Dennis.

Again, I'm sorry I mentioned you.

#94 4 months ago
Quoted from Venetic:

He is such a stand up guy, no idea what you are talking about. /s[quoted image]

Damn, people are bringing receipts to this thread.

11
#95 4 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I'm still waiting to experience this special moment. Almost as prized as the downvotes from dingleberry I enjoyed.

brb firing up the 3D printer

PinMonk (resized).pngPinMonk (resized).png

#96 4 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

I'll never get my get fucked. He has me on ignore.
At least he's not as childish as some who hide their posts from me too.

My ignore list is very, very short. I try to experience everyone's point of view and actually enjoy the energy of a negative opinion, but occasionally it's too much and a block is earned. And if you're a consistent, irredeemable super-dick I will block you from my posts, too. I have literally only one person that earned that.

#97 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

brb firing up the 3D printer
[quoted image]

Upvote earned, even though that's only an MK3 <sniff>!

#98 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

In episode 138 at the 49 minute mark, he calls it a "design mess", mentions the motor on the topper wasn't working, talks about how it wasn't identifying the modules and how the ball would hop on the modules, how it's programmed wrong on the screen and the buttons aren't labeled correctly. He also criticizes the operating system.

For anyone with this issue, there are 3 connectors on the back of most P3 modules, I found that I had the issue with it not detecting the module maybe every 4th time I put the module in. I would disconnect the whole module and throw it back in to fix it... until I figured out that what was happening was that the USB connector in the back would get unplugged in installation. I think that the USB stick in the middle here is what is telling the base machine which module is installed, and acting as some sort of copy protection perhaps? A suggestion for improvement would be some sort of "snap in" system for the USB connection to make sure that this didn't happen. I never had the issue with the other two connectors, only the USB connector.

As to ball hop... yeah thats take the whole thing out and put it back in.

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#99 4 months ago

.

hide-hiding.gifhide-hiding.gif
#100 4 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Yeah...that was my bad and I apologize. I had just listened to that episode and was chiming in on your experience. I had zero idea it would go sideways like this and my intentions were not unkind. In my experience, you're an honest businessman and you put on a terrific podcast with Dennis.
Again, I'm sorry I mentioned you.

No prob at all buddy! All is good.

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