I'd like to see it happen.

You'd see a lot of collectors go ghost white though.

MM was and supposedly still is going to be re-made. Or it was the last I heard. But thats a huge can of worms that has died down in the last year or so. I do wonder if all those folks got there money back but for a while, you couldnt open a forum and not see a rant going on about this. I myself wouldnt mind at all seeing a few older titles re-made and maybe spiced up with more modern technology. Check out his webpage for the MM remake.
http://mrpinball.com.au/

wouldn't this be the same as remaking any other Williams game in that Williams is still in business, so you would have to have their consent for a hefty penny?

I wouldn't be overly shocked to hear about a MM redemption machine in Vegas along with the other ones they have cranked out.

The main reason for no MM remake is because the rights were tied up for years with a company in Australia. The guy took deposits but never produced the game. And it seems fairly clear (at least to me) he either didn't truly have the means or the desire to do so. Depositors who have asked have received their deposits back, so it's not like he's made off with the cash.

However, my (purely speculative) feeling is for all the deposits he still has possession of, I bet he's making a nice chunk of change in interest. Given he started the project several years ago... well, do the math. I guess one upside of this whole bank meltdown is interest rates have fallen through the floor.

The Williams rights were resold to a California company, however, as I understand it, the repro rights for MM stayed with the Australian company. I might be missing a couple details but that's the gist of it.

More info:

http://tinyurl.com/6pyvfes

I interpret planetary's post as meaning "yeah, we know this guy is never going to get his act together and do the remake, but if hell freezes over, we pledge to support the effort." So they can earn a little public goodwill by pledging to be supportive, knowing there is a 99.9999% chance they won't have to follow through. It's like promising to give a guy a job when he gets out of prison, only he has 10 life sentences.

Wayne gave refunds to anyone that asked. Maybe not quickly, but I believe everyone that has asked did get their money back. He did retain the rights to remake MM, after he sold out everything else to Planetary Pinball. Wayne still has a webpage up, that gets periodic updates, declaring that he is still working on it. Who knows?

The new MM would be reproduced under the Bally name, as Williams still exists as WMS, and distances itself from pinball completely now.

Remakes make sense to me. There would be an instant market for them. If the runs would be limited, the demand for the most popular games would still be there and prices for originals wouldn't suffer that much, IMHO.

My purely speculative/sans facts opinion is that Mr Pinball Austrailia invented the MM/CC remake projects as a vaporware scheme to hold deposits, collect interest, pay down his loan with which he bought the Bally rights, the entire time collecting royalties from the parts/repro guys. He NEVER intended to make the machines, and never will. Period.

He's been caught in more lies regarding the subject than you can count. The guy is like cancer to the pinball hobby. My opinion.

Who owns the rights to Bally SS machines and their parts from the late 70s and early 80s?

Planetary?
Williams?
Someone else?

Seems to work for the movie industry too.

Who would make Bally/William's titles? who would make Data East? who would make Gottlieb?

I had this idea some time ago. How tough would it be to rebuild, say MM, yourself, and how much would it cost. Either by having a doner WCP95 game (AFM seems a wise choice) for boards, lamps, some scoop and other assys and a ton of wire. Or havin a J-ROC/PC solution, a doner cabinet/backbox and buying every standard part.

I'm not taking a perfect replica. But assume a playfield, plastics set and decals is available. And the castle doesn't matter for anything other than what is handling the ball. I guess a crafted person could build the ball guides, ramps, ramp return and some of the other game specific issues. The rest is standard Williams assys, coils etc.

They say it would take about $14K to build MM from scratch, using repro and NOS parts.

Excellent question. I believe strongly that the future of pinball is in the hands of repro machine
manufacturing using an open source model in which dozens of small, independent manufacturers, each specializing in specialized component reproduction, in the United States, Europe, Japan and Australia, are allowed to cooperate in a dynamic, interactive business model that puts preservation before profits.

Thank you, and lets make 2012 a year that helps keep our sport alive. Its vital that we rethink the model, for the very survival and relevance of pinball for the rest of the decade and beyond is at stake.

Scott Church 707 413-3103

My guess is that anyone who doesn't currently own an MM would like to see it remade, and everyone else would be pretty damn annoyed.

I'm excited about what JJP is doing but Jack is a businessman way before a pinball lover. He is making pinball games because he thinks he can make money at it.

I hate to be the cynic that puts a damper on everything, but umm, "preservation before profits"?
No, I'm sorry, that is not how a business works, that is not how the world works. Putting profits first (through cutting costs, etc) is what keeps Stern from going bankrupt. The idea of any company that doesn't put profitability first is absurd. Without profitability a company becomes a money pit and money pits don't last for long.

It's possible for remanufacturing of pinball machines to be a profitable business, but only by running it conservatively, maximizing resources, and through careful financing, could the business survive. Profit comes first! Preservation is simply an assumed to be prevalent by the whole point of the company being to remanufacture classic machines. So, preservation shouldn't even be a concern, because the whole idea of remanufacturing pinball machines is in itself preservation.

So yeah, it's possible. I most certainly hope it happens. But of course a business is a business, employees must be paid, profit must be made, lastability must be displayed.

A NIB MM (In this current climate) would sell out within three hours if a reputable company was serious about reproducing them. They could even do 1000 machines! I am all for the "Greatest Hits" to be made again... (NIB's for $6K or less!)
Heck,
Just for the fresh parts ALONE it would make sense. Gene had the right idea (albeit "poor" planning) when he did the BBB remake. It is a "no-brainer" at least in our eyes to move towards this way of thinking. Just look at DeLorean for example... They are still making the same car! (With minor improvements of course... )
Arcade games are slowly starting to see a resurgence as well. New LED screens in old cabinets, MAME 25,000 in 1's . The 70's and 80's kids are finally buying their childhood back! (Guilty! )

Do it! Do it now!

suatmm.jpeg

Gene lost 300 thousand dollars on BBB. Thats a shame, really. Perhaps he would have made a profit if they only could have remained in production, theres something to think about...

Gene lost that money from lack of planning. If he did it again with the same machine, I'd bet he'd make a profit this time around... He could even make another hundred machines on top of the original run, charge another thousand for each game and use the profit to start a third company.
He could even hire someone like Ben Heck to do a better boardset this time around!

I'd still buy!
Charge it to my credit card!

Exactly. Gene lost his ass making that game.

A repro MM would probably cost $8,000, realistically.

So now, is everyone still certain 1000 would sell out instantly? Really? Collectors with $8,000 in their pocket can probably just go purchase an existing, original MM.

The project doesn't make a lot of sense, actually, if real thought is put into it. Everyone gets all excited "Yay! Make them!! Me! Me! I'm in!" But when it became time to get everyone to pony up that large sum of cash, you'd get blank stares and crickets chirping.

Do you know anything about the BBB remake? There was no way for him to keep it in production. He used the remaining boardsets from when capcom went out of production. At that point in time there was no way to make more boardsets without reverse engineering the original boards. That is what is currently holding up the king pin reproductions.

It would be cool if we could buy those expensive B/W titles from the 90's brand new, but who would want to? It will cost 7-8k to buy one if they did do it. Who wants an new TZ for 8k when you can get a nice one for 4? IJ? Same deal. CV? AFM? Still can be had in nice shape for less then a new one would cost.

CC is worth money as a collectible. Last B/W traditonal pinball machine. If it was repoduced I cannot see many putting the money out for it. That really leaves Monster Bash and MM. Monster Bash has simple rules, if there was higher production it would probably be in the same price range as Scared Stiff.

MM is about it. Then the question becomes which would you rather have an original or a remake. If you want mm and spend 8k it won't be perfect, but it will hold its value. If they do a remake no one knows what will happen to the value of either, but I bet they both go down.

Well, we know coasterguy would buy one!

He lost money because he charged too little for the machine, because he wasn't a manufacturer and was in over his head.

He said (4 years ago) that Kingpin would be $7,500. I'm guessing it'd be even more than that now ($8,000-8,500). And that's where the problem comes in. It's just not worth it, for collectors or manufacturers. You can see how well the Kingpin project has just blistered along at a lightning pace.

If I'm a collector with $8,000, why do I need to wait around for another MM-repro fiasco? I'd just go BUY ONE right now. LOL

But.. But... What about the "Warm Fuzzies" of a MM NIB unboxing?!?
That has to be worth at least $2000 in pin-endorphins!

The reason why they dont remake them is the cost. If the rights holders worked with Stern or JJP it would mean more expense due to royalties. I think it would also anger some of the collectors who paid a big premium on their machine. If they were to reproduce a title they should improve on the toys or add extra features. Look at the pinball mod market. It's crazy out there.

So, I guess its like this. Pinball is a house that was built by operators, then abandoned by them, and now occupied by collectors. What I hope for is a universal pinball model where one company builds cabinets, another does playfields, still another does hardware and software, all for the same machine development standard. It would encourage a lot of innovation, like for instance if Jeri Ellsworth had some hardware or software designs, her company could just make hardware or software for a universal plug and play standard.

I'm taking about a revolution! This would help pinheads in foreign countries, the cabinets could be locally made, or even homebuilt, the only the thing the collector would need to buy is playfield, backglass and ROM chips to convert their game or swap with their neighbor.

If they were to reproduce a title they should improve on the toys or add extra features.

MM-LE?!?

boom.jpeg

Yep. That's a whole nother thread, but you're correct. It's headed that way eventually.

The world is so much smaller these days, and pinball collecting is growing as a hobby. The avalanche of modifications has barely begun.

Why re-make old titles? The cost to produce will still be equal, probably more, to Stern LE or JJP NIB prices. If you want an old title they are available to be had. I'd rather see new titles/themes being made.

The old machines exist. People who want them can get them. Id rather see sequels or new ideas. Maybe do a Cyberspace Madness. Expand on what made the original game fun and update it.

I keep thinking of Black Knight and BK2K. Doing something like that would be better IMO.

I would venture to guess that even at $8,000 a pop they could sell thousands of them. This is not true of every game, though. MM has always been an somewhat of an anomaly. Still, I bet there are a handful of games that could command that kind of price and still sell like hotcakes.

I would rather see innovative new ideas brought to market. Rehashing 20 year old favorites that have no emotional connection to new purchasers is not how to grow pinball. Non-pinheads have no idea what MM is and could care less - it hasn't drawn them into pinball yet, why will it do it now? JJP has managed to mix the old with the new with their WOZ concept; let's see how well they execute this excellent idea. I believe that Jack is right when he says he will reach new audiences. New ideas and technologies paired with a familiar theme might do just that.

+1.

I disagree completely.

The logic behind it suggests there are thousands of people, with $8,000 in hand, looking to purchase MMs right now. If that were the case, original MM's would be selling for at least $18,000 now. You're suggesting there exist thousands more hungry buyers than what the market currently has machines for, all willing and able at a price point of at least $8,000? Think about what you're suggesting. Think about the economy of it.

It's just not reality. If thousands could be sold for $8,000 a piece you'd already be watching them roll off an assembly line.

As a few others have stated, everyone is in it for profit - and you know what? - there is nothing wrong with that. Gene and JJP are two examples of where their stated passion is helping drive them but they still are trying to make a profit. It's a damn shame Gene lost money on BBB - sincerely. That is one nice game and cool thing he did. JJP is doing similar - challenging the conventional and driving innovation. But he's also in it for money and a bit of in your eye. Remember, the LOTR LE was Jack's doing pushing Stern and then Stern "in Jack's eye" screwed him by making it available to all distributors. The other disti's listed them at higher prices and started to get that money in pre-order so Jack went to his list and tried to up the price to cash in. Backlash ensued and he backed away, ticked at Gary. In some eyes rightfully so. Then JJP was created. Good for all of us and Jack. Again, nothing wrong with making a profit.

Gary is vilified at times on boards - IMHO unfairly. Keep in mind his passion for the game as well (and yes desire for profits). He could have easily folded up shop years ago when in financial stress but got investors to keep going. For profit? Sure. But also he does love the game and kept the light on for all of us and JJP, Gene, John P to dabble. We may not all agree with his pricing, cost cutting, BS comments towards collector market, and title selections but he's done a lot for the hobby.

Pretend we're 20 years in the future talking about the glory years of pinball and those leaders who made it so - Gary will surely be up there along with hopefully Gene and JJP. We're at a great place in pinball history fellow pinsiders.

I guess "pin-sequels" could work then if people are opposed to bringing back the originals...
BK3K, HS3, MM2, MB2, FH2, TAF2, AFM3, you get the picture...
Remember- this is still just "fanciful banter" at the end of the day. (We shouldn't take it too seriously.)
I am always interested to see the new frontier and I don't mean to shun what is in our future, I was just sad I missed the first renaissance when it came through. Life got in the way and took up most of my free time. Now that it is 2012, I would love to have the chance to open a MM (or insert favorite B/W DMD pin here) NIB! I am pretty sure most of us would have too!
*sigh*
Oh well,
"Hopes and Dreams"...

well, the adam's family made 20k, then what a year or two later they make 1,000 more as a gold edition? I can see this for certain very desriable titles (MM, twilight zone, bk2k), and sell 1k-2k machines at a price of $6k.. Then as long as your remaking the entire machine, run about 5,000 spare parts (every ramp, every CPU, every playfield), and recoup all costs associated with doing so. That way, some people get the privelage of a brand new machine, while others get the opportunity to buy brand new (not New-old stock or remake) parts to fix up existing machines.

It makes me wonder how much of that stuff (the artwork for playfields, cabinet, translite), (the schematics, the pcb layouts), are stashed away on backup discs by the rights holder, and all it would take is for someone to buy the rights, and get a production going (rather than trying to reverse engineer everything from scratch).

A car analogy? Let's compare apples to apples here then. If we are talking cars which would you rather have an original 427 Cobra or a reproduction for the same exact price? Sure, the reproduction is going to be in better shape, but the original is worth more in the long run. The original has history associated with it, the reproduction has none.

If the cost difference between the two was larger it would make more sense. That is why aftermarket shelby cobra's are so common. For most, why buy an original when a replica is just as good but costs 1/4 or less of the price. If JJP could get the rights from wayne and reproduce MM for 4-5k it would make sense. If MM suddenly shoots up to 12k or more in price and he can produce it for 8k it makes sense. If he makes it for 8k and I can buy a decent original for 8k it makes little sense for many buyers.

Also there were 4k MM's made. Even if only 2k have survived that means there are 2k less potential buyers out there. In an era where stern is lucky if a game sells 4k units, I cannot see the endeavor being worthwhile from a business or buyer perspective.

2 parts to this discussion and it boils down to could and should:

Part 1 (Could) - Wayne proved there was interest in collectors buying and shelling out 2500 for a deposit in a game where there was no history of the company he owns ever even making a game. He sold 1000 units from the onset. People shell out 7500 for LE new Sterns, so yes, I can see them selling out.

Part 2 (Should) - No. Move forward. Stop rehashing the past and come up with something better. Black Knight 3000? Now that both companies are catering to the home market with LE, the restraints are off, let's see what these designers can do. Not going to buy a WOZ, but I do like the fact that it is not a cookie cutter type game from the looks of it.

Here is a novel concept, hire new designers. I love the old designers, but MM was made by the youngest designer at Williams at the time. Have the more experienced designers there for wisdom, helping out, but get a fresh look at pinball. Example: Eddy had the idea for the exploding castle but couldn't get it going until Gomez got it working for him. (Pinball Compendium reference)

Great idea.

i would love to see brian eddy design more pins. think about it, according to ipdb he only designed 3 pins,the shadow,afm,and mm. he is listed as 2nd designer on black rose and is listed on several other pins as software designer. look at his track record and he has yet to design a crappy pin.
even pat lawler and steve ritchie have had pins i dont care for.someone hire brian eddy and let him design an original themed pin.stop looking back,look to the future.

New designers! Thats an interesting idea, but get them from where?

The obvious suggestion would be a competition or something to win an apprenticeship position.

A repro AFM? A certain NIB for meeee!

I forget who, but there is somebody out there re-doing an old Gottleib EM title or two.

Marsaplay did a highly updated version of the old Spanish game "Canasta", which has some extremely interesting technical aspects to it, and everybody said "why bother?". Though they are rumored to be working on a second title for 2012. If my hunch is correct, and the Canasta was more of a technology test-bed, it really has me hoping they are going to get more aggressive with the next one.

Kingpin appears to be dead in the water.

MM, and the other titles he was going to do, all ended up as vaporware.

The truth is that unless you already have some kind of manufacturing system in place, it's just too complicated to produce full pinball machines that would be competitive these days. And if you happen to have that kind of manufacturing ability, and are turning a profit enough to stay in business, why would you switch over to a questionable industry like Pinball if you had a choice? JJP is already in the redemption business with his coin pushers, and already had the WOZ license from that business, so it's a more natural transition for him.

For the time being though, the cottage industry is going to be where you see the real growth in Pinball. Small guys in their basements and garages, doing what they are capable of, and sometimes growing a bigger business out of it. CPR, Pinscore, Rottendog, places like that.

I like the idea of bringing in some new blood to design some games. Guys like Ritchie, Lawlor, Gomez, Nordman, etc. are all fantastic designers, but it never hurts to get a fresh perspective. The only problem is that young people these days didn't grow up on pinball the way the designers of the last 30 years did. Perhaps that's a good thing, as they would approach the table with less preconceived notions about what pinball "should" be.