Thanks for starting a thread VonnieD. How is funding $100k going to get an efficient production line up and going? What will that $100k from us help you do specifically to get a better efficiency?

If this Kickstarter were to fail, would you guys spend some time working on your own for a while and then come back on to Kickstarter when you've got more to show? Because that seems to be the general complaint. People seem to like your concept, but people are also hard pressed to support it at this point with so many other expensive games on the market and coming soon.

Because personally I'd love to see you guys succeed on Kickstarter, because that would be great for the future of pinball start-ups, but I amongst others are cynical about this based off what we have seen so far.

Thanks for the clarification on some of the details. A few other quick questions though... Kickstarter rules state a prototype must be developed before launching the campaign. Why not finish your shooting whitewood and post a video of it on your kickstarted page first to show progress and inspire confidence in your company? I didn't see any pics or sketches of toys, mechs, art or anything other than a very basic playfield sketch.

Several preorder projects allow you to back out at a later time with little or no penalty. How do you plan to handle this? Especially since purchasing a game would require full payment up front (via kickstarter). I suggest a reward tier of $250.00 that's a deposit for a game and (refundable) installments based on progress.

Good luck

Oh yeah, the rule is a very important point which I mentioned in an earlier Vonnie D thread and forgot to mention here. Essentially this project can be removed from Kickstarter at any time without that, so you guys at Vonnie D best get a prototype up soon just for the sake of saftey under the Kickstarter rules.

Also that $250 deposit is a great idea that I highly recommend to Vonnie D to consider.

Kickstarter does not require a finished prototype to be presented as it stands, except in the Design category. Only in that category does Kickstarter prohibit photorealistic renderings of a product concept. Even in that category, their rules state "Technical drawings, CAD designs, sketches, and other parts of the design process will continue to be allowed." Like Kickstarter we believe that seeing the guts of the creative process is important. Our project is in the Games categories, because it's a Game project. Like most movies on Kickstarter, most games are not shown in a finished state. In anycase, we will using Kickstarter as a way to keep those who support the project informed on the games progess. We will upload our initial playfield design, and photos of our whitewood soon. Our white wood has changed several times during this process already due to testing. (As part of this process we have to disassemble it and move things around). Part of what our backers will get to see (even backers at the lowest 1 dollar pledge) is this whole process.

It would likely put people at ease by just showing the 2-3 previous whitewood playfields.

Folks will understand they are not final & they'd be quite excited to see such progress. Maybe excited enough to invest in the kickstarter.

Yes, I am sorry, I want you to make it, Heck I want any pinball guy to make it but I am not seeing much in donations. I have a hard enough time getting points. I sure do not need this to eat them away.

Grim.png

Plus, all the new VE games that could be on the horizon, could put a damper on things. You started strong with the 1 investor but after that oops it's starting to slip away. $100,000 is not going to put a dent into a pinball business. However, good luck.

However the rules do state that, "When a project involves manufacturing and distributing something complex, like a gadget, we require projects to show a prototype of what they’re making, and we prohibit photorealistic renderings." And even though a pinball machine is a game wouldn't it also fall under the category of a complex gadget? I guess since pinball is uncommon to see Kickstarted that's kind of a blurry point in the rules. Either way even if Kickstarter will allow the project without a prototype, it seems clear that backers won't support it without one based off the response seen in other Vonnie D threads.

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules
"When a project involves manufacturing and distributing something complex, like a gadget, we require projects to show a prototype of what they’re making, and we prohibit photorealistic renderings."

Just a thought here. When you have a pre announcement showing cool stuff like undead or vampire like creatures, then have puppets making commercials (confusing) then after countdown timer is done, you release a gremlins cartoonish theme, expect disappointment.

You have one shot to make a first impression. Underwhelming comes to mind and smacking of underdeveloped and feeling of financial cash-grabbish comes to mind. Since pinball is a passionate luxury item, excitement needs to be there for us.

I understand that your price point is in WOZ and stern LE territory. So comparing what I know as a non-investor thus far I am going to decline paying anything to find out more.

Just bad timing and a saturated market

A lot of bashing here

The guy id trying

give him a break

Not bashing at all. Business constructive criticism 101. Bashing would be either just being insulting in general or not saying anything at all.

Best of luck in your business venture.

I will gladly consider your finished product once completed.

Thanks for clarity on a few issues that have been expressed by the community.

Pics of Ts and posters please I might support in that way. Always willing to buy a reasonably priced T for puttin around.

I give it to the guys for having a go however IMO you would be nuts to commit $6500.00 plus in a non refundable pinball machine that is no where near completed.

If they had shown a machine @ say 50% - 70% completion which should be able to be done for well under 100k (plenty of home brew machines on pinside for example) I think Vonnie D would get substantially more traction/funding for their project.

Written before that the theme is great and the artist looks the goods. I think more prep time would have made a more successful launch. Paying for promos on Fiverr isn't going to sway many people to part with thousands of dollars

All the best of luck with their project.

I'm not giving my money to anyone till a game is ready to ship. Don't care if I have to pay more later... I'm done with pre orders

Brutal because it's not you V. Everyone has had it. 2-3 years ago money would be flying at you . Today everyone is burned out on that experience , tight on space and some still
Waiting on other games ordered.
Hopefully you can make it work but sadly most of us just don't have the emotional gas tank for another pre order ride.
Best of luck

If Spooky Pinball was helping Vonnie D like Stern is helping PPS make MMR, that would be something.

or

The Gremlins movie license secured..

I applaud you for your effort, the funding methodology is just not popular at this time, between JPop, SkitB and JJP, people have tired of laying out funds without seeing a game.

You may need to go in a direction more like Spooky where a prototype was taken to shows before ever asking for a pre-order. I pre-ordered AMH after it had made the rounds to a few shows and there were many gameplay videos on YouTube.

The sucker trains are full and the last one that left the station was only half full................A majoity of the pinball community is done with being used and abused. You are late to the game, JJP, JPOP and Skit-B got here long before you. If JJP pulls off the Hobbit in a reasonable time line, people might have more of an appetite for this type of risky BS.

Its not just Pinball, it seems the whole world wants to offer us consumers a preorder on absolutely anything.

Soon, you will have to plan out your lives needs, wants and must haves, ten years before you actually want it!

Oh, and that kickstart vid you Vonnie guys did was pretty bad. You have to look at the camera when you want your viewers attention, and try to hide the fact you are reading from a prompt. That lack of attention to detail is what will turn people off your project without even looking at what you have to offer. Imo of course.

Get something built, make it more appealing than anything on offer, show it to the world, and THEN ask for money and not a moment before.

The video they made was embarrassing and gave a bad first impression.. They should of scrapped it and remade one and burned the one they made.

I'm afraid it's going to be a up hill battle for them starting out from scratch. Look at the battle that JJP had ( and still has ) and he was already in that industry as far as sales knowledge , connections and even operating capital and borrowing power that he has accumulated over the years with his other businesses in the field.

I wish Vonnie Pinball the best of luck though. More power to them. Be nice to have a pinball company just 90 miniutes down the road from me ! I will have to try and look you guys up the next time I'm down around your way.

personally I love the Pinball Gremlins theme. it sure beats yet another dad rock or superhero game, and the original art looks great. I wish these guys nothing but luck.

Ok, so maybe you can directly answer the questions below. Please understand these aren't meant to be confrontational, but are merely being asked because I think there is a bit of a disconnect going on with what the public has seen, and what you're saying you have. Hence why (I think) there has been a bit of negativity surrounding the project.

1. What's that mean? Is Barry just around for feedback and bouncing ideas off of? If the kickstarter is funded you're going to contract him to design the game modes? There is a lot of misinformation out surrounding this.
2. If you've gone through 3 playfields, why haven't any been shared?
3. If you're working in SolidWorks, why has only the FP work been seen?
4. I asked in another thread, but what are these custom lights?

Good luck with the project

Don't let the negative comments get to you
When you try something new there are always people who will find fault in every aspect of your project

Vonnie, do you have a gameplan for production? I think that's what has made people cynical about boutique games....hell, even Jersey Jack has a fully staffed factory and can't even seem to get all the WOZLEs built and shipped. SkitB hasnt shipped a game. Jpop hasn't shipped a game. Spooky has shipped a few, but we got to see constant progress, protos, etc from Ben Heck....and we also had Ben's precedent - he can build anything.

So what's the plan here? It seems very "daydreamy" & not realistic, IMO.

Warning: Opinions inbound.

There's something like a holy trinity for getting your pinball project funded.

1) Reputation. Having a reputation for having been able to make good on designs in the past. Games designed, companies ran, good connections, etc.
2) A working prototype. A fully flipping machine. Something that shows you can at least get 75% of a pin built.
3) Market demand for a new machine.

And a 4th wildcard:
4) Enough cash on hand to buy 1 and / or 2.

I think you grade each point on a scale of 0 - 10. All added up you've got to get to at least a "10" in order to expect some success.

JJP:
1) 7 - Had an established business in the industry.
2) 0 - Nothing here but an idea.
3) 10 - Guys were begging for it.
4) 5 - Took pre-orders but he certainly had a bank roll of his own.

Score 22.

Jpop
1) 8 - Who doesn't love a Jpop design? Plus he's got all of the connections.
2) 2 - At least there were some drawings and concept art.
3) 9 - Maybe a little less hungry because of JJP, but the demand was still there, especially for another TOM or CV.
4) 1 - Took pre-orders, I'm not sure he could have funded the whole thing on his own.

Score 20

Spooky
1) 8 - Had connections. Could produce playfields, cabinets, translights.
2) 10 - You couldn't ask for a more open presentation of their prototypes and build progress.
3) 5 - They had others in the market already, maybe coming a little later in the game. A year earlier and this would have been a 9/10.
4) 5 - I don't know that Charlie had big money, but he could open a shop on his own and start making pinball stuff almost immediately.

Score 28

SkitB
1) 0 - Sorry guys. Some kids in the basement don't have a lot of industry reputation capital.
2) 9 - They hit the ground running with a really nice prototype.
3) 8 - I think they're between JPOP and JJP, I could be wrong about this, it's not an exact science.
4) 1 - Took pre-orders but at least could demonstrate that they had enough money to produce a decent prototype.

Score 18

Feel free to create your own scales here, but Vonnie D should have done something to up their company's reputation capital.

Vonnie D
1) 2 - OK, Ousler is a name but the level of his involvement isn't clear. Consulting on some modes isn't really a big commitment.
2) 1 - Some drawings and an idea.
3) 1 - They've said, "You thought pinball was dead?" Really there are what, 12 or more boutique or bigger players releasing new machines? A lot of money is tied up and a lot of attention is being spread VERY thin these days.
4) 1 - ? Again, not much to show. A web site, drawings, a video. Not much real capital there.

Score 5.

To help your cause you really need to up the value of your endeavor by a lot. Now is not the time to keep everything close to the cuff. If there's some mind blowing million dollar idea that you're afraid will be stolen, then you shouldn't be afraid to hit up family, mortgage the house, and fund it yourself.

You can be coy about your innovations if you've got a reputation as a big hitter design wise. Show us what you've got. You can't go on reputation alone. You're not Lawlor, Ritchie, or Jpop.

Use Ben as an example. No one was more open than Ben Heck. He's doing things other manufacturers haven't done before. Cool ideas. He was able to show them off as he went along and no one came along and stole all of his ideas.

I'm sure some would see this as another knock, but it's meant to give you an idea of what you're going to need to succeed. There's a long time before the kickstarter is over, but in a world where a game can sell out in an hour (MM) after being announced, you've got to be concerned with your underwhelming results so far. Some adjustments are going to be necessary.

This is not what kickstarter was meant to be for.

This is raising money so future costumers dont have to wait. Thats a bullshit reason to use kickstart for.

Kickstarters is for products that we never will see without the kickstart. Made by companies that cant afford to produce it all by their own.

Honestly, I would cancel the kickstarter, spend the next 6 months building a solid prototype, document the hell out of it with professional photos, video, etc. Take it to shows and generate interest. Use that as your starting point. There is buyer fatigue in the market right now and a lot of people have been burned with the whole pre-order thing.

If they're going to use Future Pinball to demo the layout of the game, it should at least be complete and playable. I could knock out a FP layout like that in an afternoon. Adding art, coding it and making it fun? That's a whole different story.

When I worked in film I saw a lot of guys create similar premature Kickstarters. Most were trying to fund a movie before they had a script, or they tried to work the idea of not having a script into the charm of the production. Others asked for too little money, ensuring the sweat off their back would make up for a higher budget. Unless true geniuses were at the helm, none of the above ever worked out.

It also rubs me the wrong way that the Kickstarter lists "The Engineer" and "The Producer" before the positions we really care about as potential investors in a pinball: the designer(s), the artist(s), the musician(s) and the programmer(s). That, along with "Vonnie D" plastered across everything possible makes the whole endeavor seem very ego-driven...not pinball-driven.

I agree with those who have suggested slowing down, putting something more cohesive and air-tight together, and coming back strong with a second attempt. We're not going to hate you for making sure it's done right.

+1

a link to your kickstarter or something might help.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2065029795/pinball-gremlins-pinball-machine

^^^^ Thanks for the link. I just don't see them making it though. Sorry... D.O.A.

Indeed.

And they said the there was no bubble...

so Vonnie D >> are you going to participate in this thread or just lurk after starting it?

Seems like starting a thread means you plan to have discussion???

/\ This (and mike would know, he's made sacrifices)... if you're truly passionate about something and are completely confident in your project, you shouldn't need a kickstarter. You either do pre-sale (when you have a working table that's far enough along), or you borrow. Also I see what is probably $30-40k easily in pins sitting behind them. I'm guessing those could all be sold for some cash.
kickstarter_cash.jpg

Do not forget Dutch Pinball and Heighway, but heighway will have games soon and has made working prototypes.

This model is broken. My suggestion is contact spooky and see if somehow you can work with them as layout looks fantastic. Too bad the current business model is severely flawed.

4928d1375717583-how-much-work-do-you-do-your-glocks-0653_homer-eating-popcorn-small-c7873.jpg

Couldn't resist....

Seriously. Why not combine forces instead of reinventing the wheel?

Those machines are on route at a mostly pinball based arcade in a college town.

Selling those would close its doors

Sell the puppets instead.

Where did VonnieD go after starting this thread? Constructive Ideas is what everyone is giving you and you dont respond to it? Pinsiders have asked you questions in this thread and you have not responded, That does not make me fell like I wanna give you a dollar and support your Company. Dkpinball hit it right on the head you really should take his model and try to use it to help your company. Sorry guys but that Kickstarter was so hard to watch and looking away from the camera and reading cue cards was just plane bad. Did you guys look at it before you even posted it? My big problem I had with your little video was I was watching it with my girlfriend, who has to be on board with what ever I buy as we both work hard and enjoy playing pins. The way you stated you were doing things that had never been done before, but you referenced things that had already been done by JJP on the WOZ right behind you, I Knew right there I was not interested in your game when before I even had the chance to mention that to my Girlfriend she turns to me and says " Isnt the stuff they are saying they are doing thats Groundbreaking already on our WOZ "

I hope I am totally wrong on you guys, I hope you make me eat my words and If you do trust me I will post it here that I doubted you guys and If I see you at a show and your game rocks I will also come over tell you I was wrong and apologize and shake your hand and congratulate you. As of right now I am gonna sit back and watch from a distance, My advice either remove the Kickstarter and rethink your approach or at least redo that terrible video and show a shooting working whitewood before asking for money, and one other thing, dont shoot a video asking for money with 50k worth of pins behind like stated above, it does not make you look good.

I expect some thumbs down for this but it truly is how I feel and am not gonna pretend to look at it in a positive light when it really is not. VonnieD for your sake I really hope you prove me wrong.

Joe(acejedi)

I'm drooling for new video, news, etc.....the puppets aren't doing it for me. Especially for this type of purchase. I would love to see latest development videos, responses, anything to root for you guys! Puppets aren't helping

Yeah I wondered that too. It seemed great when this thread was started because I thought there would begin to be feedback from Vonnie D, however that really doesn't seem to have been the case.