The Avengers (LE)
Stern, 2012
The Avengers (Premium)
Stern, 2012
The Avengers (Pro)
Stern, 2012I don't think Quartergrabber is being a douche, I think he is just showing his bitterness and disappointment that he bought an XMEN instead of a TAVLE which is a better game.
A ton of the hate for Avengers came from the bitter taste of XMEN owners. Another big part of the hate was the price increases.
Quoted from DCFAN:I don't think Quartergrabber is being a douche, I think he is just showing his bitterness and disappointment that he bought an XMEN instead of a TAVLE which is a better game.
A ton of the hate for Avengers came from the bitter taste of XMEN owners. Another big part of the hate was the price increases.
No the game just stinks (pro version) IMO. You don't like Xmen that's fine I don't care, I'm not going to sling insults at you and call you a d-bag just because you don't like a game I like 
. Only TheFamilyAffair does that. Avenger LE could be great, I don't know yet, need to try it.
Quoted from DCFAN:I don't think Quartergrabber is being a douche, I think he is just showing his bitterness and disappointment that he bought an XMEN instead of a TAVLE which is a better game.
A ton of the hate for Avengers came from the bitter taste of XMEN owners. Another big part of the hate was the price increases.
I can't say I saw this.
A lot of Xmen owners also have Avengers. Me included.
Both are great games. Both in my top ten. And probably my 2 most played games too.
rd.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:No the game just stinks (pro version) IMO. You don't like Xmen that's fine I don't care, I'm not going to sling insults at you and call you a d-bag just because you don't like a game I like . Only TheFamilyAffair does that. Avenger LE could be great, I don't know yet, need to try it.
Congratulations. You finally owned up and said that it's your OPINION that the game stinks. And opinions are like buttholes. I never said my opinion meant more than yours or anyone else's, I just personally don't go around saying that's games suck, or blow, or stink or are a turd because I played a broken one a couple times in a bowling alley and didn't know the rules and couldn't understand the call outs.
Oh, and here's an UPDATE Avengers RULES....are still finished! 
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Congratulations. You finally owned up and said that it's your OPINION that the game stinks. And opinions are like buttholes. I never said my opinion meant more than yours or anyone else's, I just personally don't go around saying that's games suck, or blow, or stink or are a turd because I played a broken one a couple times in a bowling alley and didn't know the rules and couldn't understand the call outs.
Oh, and here's an UPDATE Avengers RULES....are still finished!
Thank you for being a lot nicer with your response this time. I really do want to give a dialed in LE a try. I love the Avengers movie and theme and I guess when I played the pro I was let down because I expected so much as I was at the distributors to buy one. Much like people with the new Star Trek, expecting a lot and let down. If I try the LE and the ball doesn't get suck behind Hulk and then suck in the corner and so on then it is a game I would buy for theme alone. Although the gameplay on the pro wasn't the best it certainly wasn't as bad as some other newer Stern titles which I won't name so no one gets offended.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:Thank you for being a lot nicer with your response this time. I really do want to give a dialed in LE a try. I love the Avengers movie and theme and I guess when I played the pro I was let down because I expected so much as I was at the distributors to buy one. Much like people with the new Star Trek, expecting a lot and let down. If I try the LE and the ball doesn't get suck behind Hulk and then suck in the corner and so on then it is a game I would buy for theme alone. Although the gameplay on the pro wasn't the best it certainly wasn't as bad as some other newer Stern titles which I won't name so no one gets offended.
The corner stuck issue was only on the Pro. Also, the gameplay is quite different for the LE because the Capt. America and IM shots can orbit and make for fast paced come-backs to the opposite flippers. The Hawkeye shot is great whether the ball comes to the lock, right flipper or the crossover ramp.
By the way, I have developed a plastic that solves the Hulk hang-ups 95% of the time. I really was not getting balls stuck at Hulk very often, but I decided to try making something anyway.
Quoted from DCFAN:The corner stuck issue was only on the Pro. Also, the gameplay is quite different for the LE because the Capt. America and IM shots can orbit and make for fast paced come-backs to the opposite flippers. The Hawkeye shot is great whether the ball comes to the lock, right flipper or the crossover ramp.
By the way, I have developed a plastic that solves the Hulk hang-ups 95% of the time. I really was not getting balls stuck at Hulk very often, but I decided to try making something anyway.
I know this is why I really need to try the LE. When I played the pro I was so pissed the ball kept getting stuck, and I was there to buy it. So I cancelled that and bought an Xmen pro instead. That was pretty cool of you to design a plastic to solve the Hulk problem. Do you sell it??
Oh and anyone interested, if you log onto Sterns facebook page right now and tell them where you are playing pinball this weekend you can win a brand new Avengers playfield.
You and I seem to have similar taste in machines. I also love the Avengers theme and I think you'll dig the LE. If the hulk switch plate is set right, stuck balls become very rare. I'm personally slot less interested on broadcasting my love for Avengers than in on defending the game so it doesn't get mislabeled and ignored. I honestly think its a great game, so I'd like others to experience its greatness. In the old days, one way or another, you'd see games everywhere and ultimately pour enough quarters into a game to figure out if you liked it or not. Nowadays if we're lucky enough to find one on location it probably does suck and it's rare that we can just go somewhere else and play one. So machines get a bad rep and then get stick with that label when the next machine comes out.
The hobby is in a very strange place right now . I guess its a good thing we're fighting over games.
Yeah my problem is I will probably never get to try an LE as everyone I know that has once had one has sold it. I don't know anyone that has one around me at all. Maybe one day I'll go to a TOPL event and ask Frolic if I could try his. That free playfield is worth trying for though.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:I know this is why I really need to try the LE. When I played the pro I was so pissed the ball kept getting stuck, and I was there to buy it. So I cancelled that and bought an Xmen pro instead. That was pretty cool of you to design a plastic to solve the Hulk problem. Do you sell it??
Hey QG - I played a Pro on location and it was the worst experience ever. Damn thing was pretty much falling apart. I recently played a newly built Pro that a friend got and it was really fun. Smooth as silk and nothing got stuck. Shame there's such inconsistency from game to game.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:That was pretty cool of you to design a plastic to solve the Hulk problem. Do you sell it??
I will likely post some pictures and a short video of the plastic that I made in the next couple days.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:Thank you for being a lot nicer with your response this time. I really do want to give a dialed in LE a try. I love the Avengers movie and theme and I guess when I played the pro I was let down because I expected so much as I was at the distributors to buy one. Much like people with the new Star Trek, expecting a lot and let down. If I try the LE and the ball doesn't get suck behind Hulk and then suck in the corner and so on then it is a game I would buy for theme alone. Although the gameplay on the pro wasn't the best it certainly wasn't as bad as some other newer Stern titles which I won't name so no one gets offended.
When I first played AV pro, I was disappointed as well. Liked the ACDC and POTC next to it better. Damn thing grew on me though when I had a chance to really play the game at a friends and bought his AVLE. Realize the game still gets bashed but it's my favorite game and it's the last game my family would want to see me let go of. The amount of tweaking they require is admittedly annoying, but I really find playing the game fun and rewarding.
Quoted from DCFAN:I will likely post some pictures and a short video of the plastic that I made in the next couple days.
Please post it on this thread also.
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-tweaks-have-you-done-to-hulk-le/page/2
Having owned both xmen pro and AVLE and both still in my top 10; here's my quick list.
Layout: avengers
Artwork: xmen
Lighting: avengers (although XMLE trumps this. But we're talking xmen pro here).
Sounds/call outs: avengers
Music: tie
Flow: xmen
Rules: I give xmen a very small slight edge; its got more unique and creative rules which gives it the bonus points to edge out AVLE.
Mini wizard mode: xmen
Wizard mode: avengers (but it needs some work and xmen can take this with its next update in a year or so? 
)
Multiball fun: avengers
Overall fun factor: xmen (avengers would take this if I didn't have to tweak it every day before playing).
Conclusion: as you can see. Both are great games in my book. You xmen guys dogging avengers and you avengers guys dogging xmen make me laugh these games are such different games to compare each other too. Both could use an update; xmen moreso. But I think we can all agree both games are underrated, addicting, and fun.
SKB
And here is the video of the plastic working. Notice that the ball is behind the arm and the switch triggers from the weight of the ball on the new/fix plastic:
Eskay, you would love playing my Hulk LE. I have it dialed in so every shot does what it was supposed to do and I don't have to tweak anything. I guess, the worst thing that happens is that the random ball will sit next to the plastic at the top of the shooter lane (the clear plastic on the left side of the shooter lane) and not fully fall onto the top opto when locking the third ball, but a tiny shake of the machine fixes that.
Quoted from DCFAN:Eskay, you would love playing my Hulk LE. I have it dialed in so every shot does what it was supposed to do and I don't have to tweak anything. I guess, the worst thing that happens is that the random ball will sit next to the plastic at the top of the shooter lane (the clear plastic on the left side of the shooter lane) and not fully fall onto the top opto when locking the third ball, but a tiny shake of the machine fixes that.
Take a pair of diagonal cutters and make a crease in it and bend the tip of that plastic to the right.
I finally have my game to where I am no longer removing the glass, it plays like a smooth criminal now.
Quoted from tracelifter:Take a pair of diagonal cutters and make a crease in it and bend the tip of that plastic to the right.
I finally have my game to where I am no longer removing the glass, it plays like a smooth criminal now.
Or just loosen the screws, readjust the plastic and tighten?
Quoted from DCFAN:Eskay, you would love playing my Hulk LE. I have it dialed in so every shot does what it was supposed to do and I don't have to tweak anything. I guess, the worst thing that happens is that the random ball will sit next to the plastic at the top of the shooter lane (the clear plastic on the left side of the shooter lane) and not fully fall onto the top opto when locking the third ball, but a tiny shake of the machine fixes that.
How often does your IM and CA loop shots hit the slingers on the ball return? What's your pitch at?
Quoted from DCFAN:I will likely post some pictures and a short video of the plastic that I made in the next couple days.
Please sell them! I'll buy one. My hulk plastic broke again - this time from a flying ball, think, so. M 0-2 from this plastic from the factory.
Quoted from DCFAN:And here is the video of the plastic working. Notice that the ball is behind the arm and the switch triggers from the weight of the ball on the new/fix plastic:
» Vimeo video
Nice! I'll take one when available.
Quoted from Eskaybee:How often does your IM and CA loop shots hit the slingers on the ball return? What's your pitch at?
I am at around 6.5 degrees pitch. I don't remember any orbit shots from Capt. America or IM hitting the slings. They hit the flippers with a ton of speed from what I remember. I will have to play a couple games and get back to you with a more definitive answer.
For those that are interested in the plastic, I guess the question is whether or not you need it laser cut or would me cutting it by hand with a jigsaw like I did for mine be good enough. If I need to have some made by laser I would need to contact a company like Pinbits and I have no idea how much they would cost.
Quoted from DCFAN:Ok, here are some pictures of the plastic I made to reduce the chances of ball hang-ups at Hulk's left arm (to the player's left). The plastic is secured underneath the two posts that the rubber in the third picture is wrapped around:
Wow, that is a great idea. You should sell those in bulk to pin.bits.
Quoted from DCFAN:I am at around 6.5 degrees pitch. I don't remember any orbit shots from Capt. America or IM hitting the slings. They hit the flippers with a ton of speed from what I remember. I will have to play a couple games and get back to you with a more definitive answer.
For those that are interested in the plastic, I guess the question is whether or not you need it laser cut or would me cutting it by hand with a jigsaw like I did for mine be good enough. If I need to have some made by laser I would need to contact a company like Pinbits and I have no idea how much they would cost.
oops, just noticed this post. If you get pin.bits to laser cut it they might copy the design and sell them themselves. Better for you to talk to them and work out some kind of a deal where you get a cut of everyone sold. It is such a major problem with Avengers I could see it selling like hot cakes. If I owned an Avengers I would buy one for sure.
Quoted from DCFAN:I am at around 6.5 degrees pitch. I don't remember any orbit shots from Capt. America or IM hitting the slings. They hit the flippers with a ton of speed from what I remember. I will have to play a couple games and get back to you with a more definitive answer.
For those that are interested in the plastic, I guess the question is whether or not you need it laser cut or would me cutting it by hand with a jigsaw like I did for mine be good enough. If I need to have some made by laser I would need to contact a company like Pinbits and I have no idea how much they would cost.
I'd love to try one. I swear though, by adjusting the switch and plate so that it has the right sensitivity, the combination of the magnet being more active and the hulk moving more often has severely reduced my ball hang ups. I will still get the rare one during a Multiball, but otherwise I'm good.
Quoted from Eskaybee:Or just loosen the screws, readjust the plastic and tighten?
I think he is talking about the vertical clear along the side of the launch ramp that sticks our a little past it.
I was going to remove it and trim it down but kinking it has fixed the problem.
It is an obvious ball trap, I think it was cut too long and they just left it like that.
It should plane out with the end of the ramp.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:And the game still kicks ass.
Avengers is the only new Stern game that had the distinction of being at both of two of the biggest pinball locations in the Twin Cities...only to be removed from both of those locations already for poor coin drop. The one location still has BBH even...but got rid of Avengers due to lack of play. The other has gotten every new Stern title from the last few years...and still has them all except...Rolling Stones and Avengers. And before anyone says, "You have to dial it in first"...we did. Better part of two weeks fixing the ball hangups and issues before it played right. I think that speaks volumes about what people think about Avengers here.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:I'd love to try one. I swear though, by adjusting the switch and plate so that it has the right sensitivity, the combination of the magnet being more active and the hulk moving more often has severely reduced my ball hang ups. I will still get the rare one during a Multiball, but otherwise I'm good.
Adjusting the mag pole and switch eliminates the hang ups and it only happens now sometimes during MB on my game.
This plastic looks like a great idea, I was going to make a floorplate that goes back further but didn't do it after getting the plate and pole adjusted it isn't a big problem anymore.
Quoted from LesManley:Avengers is the only new Stern game that had the distinction of being at both of two of the biggest pinball locations in the Twin Cities...and has since already been removed from both of them. The one location still has BBH even...but got rid of Avengers due to lack of play. The other has gotten every new Stern title from the last few years...and still has them all except...Rolling Stones and Avengers. I think that speaks volumes about what people think about Avengers here.
The game requires massive tweaking to get it to play properly, without it nobody is going to coin it up a second time.
When a solid hit to the center of the BW ramp is rejected over and over why would you keep putting money in it?
You would have to ask Gary why this game left the factory like this, I have no clue.
Quoted from tracelifter:The game requires massive tweaking to get it to play properly, without it nobody is going to coin it up a second time.
When a solid hit to the center of the BW ramp is rejected over and over why would you keep putting money in it?
You would have to ask Gary why this game left the factory like this, I have no clue.
There is definitely a sweet spot for the height of the overhead plastic that prevents balls from flying off the Black Widow ramp. At the height Stern had originally designed, it was causing numerous ball rejects. I would guess that the overhead BW plastic was added late in the development and they did not bother spending the time to dial it in. It amazes me how Stern does not get such things in all their games dialed in or at least put out service bulletins and/or parts to fix the problems.
Quoted from LesManley:Avengers is the only new Stern game that had the distinction of being at both of two of the biggest pinball locations in the Twin Cities...only to be removed from both of those locations already for poor coin drop. The one location still has BBH even...but got rid of Avengers due to lack of play. The other has gotten every new Stern title from the last few years...and still has them all except...Rolling Stones and Avengers. And before anyone says, "You have to dial it in first"...we did. Better part of two weeks fixing the ball hangups and issues before it played right. I think that speaks volumes about what people think about Avengers here.
Fortunately, most of us mainly play HUO games that are dialed in because we do not have route games to play anymore (unfortunately). I never judge a game based on one that is not playing correctly, especially when I have seen or played one that does play right.
I have not played the Pro, but the people I know that have did not like it, but the people I know that have TAVLE like it and have dialed them in.
Quoted from LesManley:Avengers is the only new Stern game that had the distinction of being at both of two of the biggest pinball locations in the Twin Cities...only to be removed from both of those locations already for poor coin drop. The one location still has BBH even...but got rid of Avengers due to lack of play. The other has gotten every new Stern title from the last few years...and still has them all except...Rolling Stones and Avengers. And before anyone says, "You have to dial it in first"...we did. Better part of two weeks fixing the ball hangups and issues before it played right. I think that speaks volumes about what people think about Avengers here.
I'll bet Michelle Bachman hates Avengers.
Post edited by TheFamilyArcade : Removed snarky comment.
Quoted from tracelifter:The game requires massive tweaking to get it to play properly, without it nobody is going to coin it up a second time.
When a solid hit to the center of the BW ramp is rejected over and over why would you keep putting money in it?
You would have to ask Gary why this game left the factory like this, I have no clue.
My experience playing two pros on location has been the opposite. They played mostly fine when new, but developed issues later due to lack of proper maintenance.
First off, to me, a regular location player, the ball getting stuck on Hulk is not a major problem. When it happens during multiball, it's a good thing. You get to play a virtual one ball multiball until the other ball gets knocked loose. If it happens in one ball play, you wait a few seconds and ball search kicks it out. I can see how a home buyer might not like balls getting stuck on Hulk, but to a location player, it's hardly a deal breaker. The ball getting stuck above the right in/outlane is lame. That should've never left the factory. Raising the post quickly solves that problem and surprisingly doesn't lead to significantly more right outlane drains.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that on both machines the BW and CA shots seemed to get somewhat easier as the games 'broke in'. On new games, I could nail the BW ramps on the fly three times in a row tops. On the broke in games, 5 or more loops at a time were doable. Part of it was definitely me getting more time on the games (getting the shots down), but no way did any shots get harder. Interestingly, the IM shot never got any easier (or harder) on either game.
Both games are in busy locations and are developing other issues. The plastic that blocks airballs on the BW ramp broke off on one. That was poor design IMO. One screw to hold that huge plastic. Without it, airballs off the ramp are common. The other game has developed issues locking balls. The floppy ball launch doesn't bother me in the least as I always short plunge.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:See? You're just being douchey. You're not saying YOU don't like it (because who would give a crap? Who are you?) you're saying its a bad game. I could say you're wrong, no it's not, but that's just my opinion. Identifying you as douchey for this particular thing is, however, just the plain, honest truth.
Dude WTF is wrong with you? "It's a bad game, here's why" is the same as "I don't like it, here's why". I also explained why the game sucks/I don't like it. I don't expect you to agree with me; I'm just stating my opinion on the game. If you disagree, offer a counter opinion, not "douchy" remarks.
Dude, you came into this thread to take a dump on Avengers. Now your mad because I say your shit stinks? I believe I have commented in general on your remarks: shooting the same shot over and over again because that's how you'd score big in a tourney is boring to me. And lots of other people. If that's how you've approached the game no wonder you don't like it. Go figure.
I came into this thread and offered a thought-out and articulated opinion of the game. Apparently you're too immature to deal with people disliking a game you bought? Grow up already.
It's not my fault that both models were shipped with glaring faults. If everything is working right, it's fun for a game or two, but it's too much a grind to own one IMHO. Also, the goal of pinball is to score points, and it's up to the machine/designer to NOT offer repeatable, exploitable scenarios to do just that. Just like Police Force and that stupid middle ramp.
Articulate? "Bad is just bad"? Well done sir. 
you're truly prosaic in your articulation. Too bad you're poetic analysis is flawed. The goal of pinball my friend is to have fun. The fact that you can't have fun with Avengers sounds like a personal problem. Blaming the designer for your OCD (that's right, since you can't seem to shake the compulsion to hit the Hawkeye ramp over and over and over and over and over and over again) is misguided. And you know what? I think it IS your fault that both models were shipped with glaring faults. And it's your fault that XMEN, MET, TF and ACDC ALL shipped with glaring faults. It's all your fault! Everything is your fault.
I forgive you.
Quoted from metallik:Also, the goal of pinball is to score points, and it's up to the machine/designer to NOT offer repeatable, exploitable scenarios to do just that. Just like Police Force and that stupid middle ramp.
Can't you do that on any game if you really really wanted to? For example, I could backhand the AC/DC right ramp forever and ever and just start Jam Multiball over and over....if I wanted. Yet I've never seen anyone use that as a reason to invalidate the whole machine. *shrug*
Quoted from Rarehero:Can't you do that on any game if you really really wanted to? For example, I could backhand the AC/DC right ramp forever and ever and just start Jam Multiball over and over....if I wanted. Yet I've never seen anyone use that as a reason to invalidate the whole machine. *shrug*
Except that you really can't do that, or else people would have done nothing *but* that at on the ACDC at PAPA recently. The shot is definitely not a gimmie (especially on some ACDCs), the requirements for Jam keep going up, and Jam itself isn't worth a lot. You will miss your left-ramp shots often enough. A jam-only strategy might get you a non-crappy score, but it won't win any tournaments. Seriously, try it...
It's difficult to design a game with absolutely no exploits - heck, people exploit the rathole on BSD if the right flipper is setup favorably, and Brian Shepherd played catch with a very kind FGY scoop for 20 minutes to get into PAPA finals a few years ago, but Hawkeye on AVPro is pretty damn bad. Considering the risk (minimal), and reward (multiball), and the difficult of the other shots/modes in the game, Hawkeye abuse becomes a legitimate, and sometimes the only strategy for Avengers.
Final point: how often is Avengers used in tournaments? There's a reason for that answer.
BTW I'll happily chat with you, but I've already written off "Family Arcade" as a nutcase/troll, so done "debating" with him.
Quoted from metallik:Except that you really can't do that, or else people would have done nothing *but* that at on the ACDC at PAPA recently. The shot is definitely not a gimmie (especially on some ACDCs), the requirements for Jam keep going up, and Jam itself isn't worth a lot. You will miss your left-ramp shots often enough. A jam-only strategy might get you a non-crappy score, but it won't win any tournaments. Seriously, try it...
It's difficult to design a game with absolutely no exploits - heck, people exploit the rathole on BSD if the right flipper is setup favorably, and Brian Shepherd played catch with a very kind FGY scoop for 20 minutes to get into PAPA finals a few years ago, but Hawkeye on AVPro is pretty damn bad. Considering the risk (minimal), and reward (multiball), and the difficult of the other shots/modes in the game, Hawkeye abuse becomes a legitimate, and sometimes the only strategy for Avengers.
Final point: how often is Avengers used in tournaments? There's a reason for that answer.
BTW I'll happily chat with you, but I've already written off "Family Arcade" as a nutcase/troll, so done "debating" with him.
Tournaments suck the fun out of pinball. 
Quoted from tracelifter:Adjusting the mag pole and switch eliminates the hang ups and it only happens now sometimes during MB on my game.
This plastic looks like a great idea, I was going to make a floorplate that goes back further but didn't do it after getting the plate and pole adjusted it isn't a big problem anymore.
It does seem like an extended floorplate of some type would be a bit more elegant.
Quoted from tbanthony:It does seem like an extended floorplate of some type would be a bit more elegant.
An extened floorplate would need to be clear or you would lose the view of the "Special" insert and art work in that area. The clear plastic I made essentially extends the floorplate without needing any permanent modification to the game. It mounts by sitting under two existing posts and rests on the edge of the floorplate to activate the switch when the ball rolls into the left corner.
The only time it does not work to clear a ball is if Hulk hits the ball backwards when the switch is activated and the ball does not roll under his arm in time. In that case the switch will remain closed and the ball search will clear it in about 3 to 5 seconds. Fortunately that scenario rarely occurs with the plastic installed. If the software was programmed for Hulk to activate continuously (or at least 3 times/cycles) until the switch is open then that would solve the problem, but that would require Stern to program it that way.
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