Should JJP Reproduce A-List B/W Titles?

Started 1 year ago by Tom_in_NoVA in forum Game manufacturersJersey Jack Pinball.



Should JJP Reproduce A-List B/W Titles?


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  • Started 1 year ago by Tom_in_NoVA
  • 76 Pinsiders participating in this thread.
  • Latest reply from Pimp77

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    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Why would JJP remake games from a totally different company? That's like saying that Toyota should remake a 57 Chevy. Wtf?

    Anyways, time is much better spent focusing on making new games.


    RobT

    Pinside legend
    12,383,623 3
    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    markmon said:

    Why would JJP remake games from a totally different company? That's like saying that Toyota should remake a 57 Chevy. Wtf?
    Anyways, time is much better spent focusing on making new games.

    Heh, good point!


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I don't think JJP has any interest in doing re-makes based on his comments at Ohio show.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I want an original non licensed theme. Horror, Camping, Magic, Comedy, Western, SCI FI

    I'd love to see a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western themed game or a Monty Python silly game if you need a licensed game.

    Bring on new original games like WW, Funhouse, CC, MM, AFM, CV, TOM, Pinball Magic were when they were produced. Sick of the licenses . Do we really need a hobbit pinball next?


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    hank527 said:

    Do we really need a hobbit pinball next?

    Yes.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    jarjarisgod said:

    hank527 said:

    Do we really need a hobbit pinball next?
    Yes.

    NO!!!!! At least I hope not....


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Honch said:

    jarjarisgod said:hank527 said:
    Do we really need a hobbit pinball next?
    Yes.
    NO!!!!! At least I hope not....

    Prepare to have your hopes dashed.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Hungry for The Hobbit! I'm ready to put down my deposit.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    new kiss pinball thanks jpp


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    jarjarisgod said:

    Prepare to have your hopes dashed.

    It figures.....


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    jimjim66 said:

    Pause, and ask -If the William/Bally model was so successful, why did they stop?

    Well, for one thing, Bally/Williams mostly sold games to operators. The current Stern/JJP market is focused on home users. This means prices can be higher, since the machines are purchased as an entertainment luxury item and not as a piece of working capital that is expected to earn return on investment.
    NIB Bally/Williams machines retailed for about $3000 in the late 1990s, if I'm not mistaken. Modern Sterns are considerably more expensive, even the "basic" editions. Inflation can't account for the difference, since we've had very low inflation the entire time from then until now. This makes a real difference to profit margins.

    Also, B/W had a horrible business strategy. Their method was to basically guess how many machines they could sell, and produce that number. If they guessed high (as with Cirqus Voltaire and Champion Pub, among others) they had to blow out their excess inventory at a loss. Some of these games sold for as little as $1700 new! If they guessed low, as with AFM and MM, they didn't go back to revisit that decision; they just went on to the next title and abandoned the previous one. They could easily have cranked out another 1000 or more MMs and sold every one, but they didn't. That's just leaving money on the table. Stern was much smarter about this, and did multiple production runs of TSPP and LOTR so that supply could more closely match demand. While these machines have held their price, they haven't skyrocketed in value like the best WPC titles have, because most people who wanted one could get it.

    jimjim66 said:

    They could make a lot more money making slots so they abandoned the market. If making those pins weren't good enough to keep Williams making pins, how would they keep JJP in business?

    Because JJP could charge $7500 for a NIB MM and get plenty of takers, while B/W had to settle for $3000.


    -1
    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    You don't have to make an exact copy. Make a machine LIKE AFM. A Mars Attacks machine. Same type of thing with updated cool stuff. Make everyone happy.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    spfxted said:

    Make a machine LIKE AFM. A Mars Attacks machine. Same type of thing with updated cool stuff. Make everyone happy.

    That could work!


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    NO!!Time for innovation.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I fully agree with everyone that states that now is the time for innovation. But, innovation takes time. And I would like to see JJP make more than 1 or 2 games a year. The purpose of my original post, was to "float" the idea of JJP remaking existing A-List Pins, that are in high demand right now. Which would bypass R&D, Programming, Etc. Giving JJP an avenue to make some quick cash, after all they are a business and I for one would like for them to be around a long, long time.

    Most people have indicated disagreement with this idea. If JJP made them, then I would buy.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I just think that as new games keep coming out more and more folks will see that the old themes are dated.
    By the end of next year there will be some really cool tables out and more announced. Prior to about when SM came out the enitire hobby was centered mainly on preserving the last great games.
    Finally Pinball can start moving forward.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Hwawonyu said:

    Finally Pinball can start moving forward.

    +1....


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I think this subject matter is one reason Pinball Arcade is doing so well. Gives us a way to play the old classics (virtually) and be semi-satisfied.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Would you like to have your favorite band re-record their CDs and albums from the past? Or would you rather have them bring out fresh new stuff? Maybe a poor comparison, but you get the idea.

    Pinball's "glory days" we're in the 1990's, but we need to move forward to the hoped for renaissance of pinball. We can't be like some old fart in his easy chair who does nothing all day but talk about the fun he used to have.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Isn't this kinda like asking your new girlfriend to dye her hair blonde to be more like your old girlfriend. Stern and JJP are making some great games now. The thing that made MM and AFM great were that they were doing things that hadn't been done before, I'm happy to see that they are trying to continue that trend with AC/DC and WOZ


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Tommi_Gunn said:

    I think they need to see how woz sells before moving forward. What's the true le oz stats? 1000 sold? Where are these people? I would think a large percentage of sales would be from here. I think pinside represents a decent number of pin collectors. Why is the woz owner list so small? Less than 100 counted from pinside members? That opened my eyes. Where's the other 900 going to? woz fans? rgp members? distributors? Really? 900.
    With all due respect to JJP. Are they making any profit from the first game? Are there enough funds for a 2nd, 3rd game? I hope so, but it seems like it's been more loss, than profit. I think about the list of expenses, and it makes me wonder. I purchased 4 nib sterns, since they been making woz. Feels like dog years. My pin money keeps going to Stern. I've been waiting for the updates like everyone else. Hoping to play it, it before I buy in.
    I hear about what's next for JJP, and all I can think is, let's finish up woz guys. This has been going on for a long time. I'm sure some things are beyond their control, and you have to go through the right channels. There's been some hang ups. I get it. But as a consumer, I wonder if title #2 and #3 is going to happen. Hope I'm wrong. I'd like to see something after woz.

    I agree, hope there not just a "one hit wonder" and disappear........


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Jeff_PHX_AZ said:

    I agree, hope there not just a "one hit wonder" and disappear........

    And that right there is why we all have to get WOZ! When you hear Jack talk, he says he wants to sell 20,000 of these guys. We don't want to disappoint him! He is taking a huge financial risk with this company, and if WOZ flops gave it a try and will fold up and go home. Nobody wants that, except maybe Gary Stern.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    DrStarkweather said:

    And that right there is why we all have to get WOZ! When you hear Jack talk, he says he wants to sell 20,000 of these guys.

    That may have been somewhat feasible a couple of years ago with the assumption the state of pinball was going to stay the same. But, Stern upped their game with the LE's post TRS. Also, BHZA and Skit-b are now on the scene. I think 20,000 units is a real stretch in today's environment.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Total pipe dream....JJP will never come close to selling 20k units.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Honch said:

    Total pipe dream....JJP will never come close to selling 20k units.

    Sadly, I agree. Wants and will are two different stories. 20,000 is probably unobtainable in today's world.

    I do hope he sells a crap load though, and becomes beyond wealthy so we can have more pinball options in the future. I read in an article Stern sells 10,000 pins for an entire year. That is multiple titles, so JJP is competing with those numbers.

    I really like how competition is bringing out the best in both companies.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    spfxted said:

    You don't have to make an exact copy. Make a machine LIKE AFM. A Mars Attacks machine. Same type of thing with updated cool stuff. Make everyone happy.

    Oh, like Revenge From Mars?


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    hank527 said:

    Sick of the licenses . Do we really need a hobbit pinball next?

    No we don't...please no.....something creative!


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Oh, like Revenge From Mars?

    Hey! Don't make me come over there!


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    jimjim66 said:

    Sadly, I agree. Wants and will are two different stories. 20,000 is probably unobtainable in today's world.
    I do hope he sells a crap load though, and becomes beyond wealthy so we can have more pinball options in the future. I read in an article Stern sells 10,000 pins for an entire year. That is multiple titles, so JJP is competing with those numbers.
    I really like how competition is bringing out the best in both companies.

    I'm actually surprised that Stern is cranking out that many pins. If that is true JJP should sell a lot more than I thought. I figured they'd be good for 2 maybe 3k tops. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they doubled that number if the market for Stern is really that strong.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    DrStarkweather said:

    And that right there is why we all have to get WOZ! When you hear Jack talk, he says he wants to sell 20,000 of these guys. We don't want to disappoint him! He is taking a huge financial risk with this company, and if WOZ flops gave it a try and will fold up and go home. Nobody wants that, except maybe Gary Stern.

    in the eighties 20,000 units was rare.
    Fire Power: 17,410 units.
    Flash Gordon 10,000 units
    Eightball Deluxe 8,250 (initial Run) units. (and it barely broke 20k in three runs)
    Black Hole 8,774

    No, not in today's market (or any market) is 20,000 units even likely.

    I'd put odds on more like 1000 tops.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I duno... If there was a market for it, and there is with beater machines costing 8K+ and the supply of machines being limited, I would have no problem with plunking down 6k for a NIB W/B repo.

    Now the owners of the REAL machines would have a problem with this due to the value dropping, but I am not in pinball to make money, I am in it to PLAY! I could care less if all my machines were worth nothing at the end of the day. They would still play and that's all that counts.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    jimjim66 said:

    I do hope he sells a crap load though, and becomes beyond wealthy so we can have more pinball options in the future. I read in an article Stern sells 10,000 pins for an entire year. That is multiple titles, so JJP is competing with those numbers.

    Sorry to kind of resurrect this thread, realized I'd missed a few JJP threads over the past couple weeks and was just going down the JJP forum.
    Anyway, Stern as a company MAYBE had one year where they did 10K pins (2004 probably, the year LOTR was first in mass production). My own personal WOF (last game I got from there) is 215361. A recent pinside thread showed an ACDC LTBR as 234405. I'm estimating my game was from Q1 2008, so 4Y1Q they've done about 19K games. Of those, probably a significant number was in 2008 as that had IJ and BDK original runs before the horrific themes really started coming up.


    Sunfox

    Pinball addict
    1,622,550 3
    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I have a BDK from Nov 2009 that's ~10800 lower than the ACDC you mention.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    No.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Sunfox said:

    I have a BDK from Nov 2009 that's ~10800 lower than the ACDC you mention.

    From that information, then Stern must be selling about 4000 to 6000 games a year at this point.
    If they are making 4 different themes a year, then that equates to about maybe 1400 average of each theme.

    Also, from that info, if JJP sells 3000 WOZ they have done real well for one title.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    No, Stern has been producing around 10k for a while. Here's an article from 2010... before the big demand spike. Lots of interesting info in there, probably better off reading this article than relying on the misinformation found in many threads:

    http://www.sternpinball.com/About/News/game-roi-and-reliability.aspx

    A few tidbits:

    "Stern estimates global sales remain stable at 8,000-10,000 units annually, much as they have been for a couple of years now.

    Gary Stern estimates 60% of pinball sales today go to the U.S. market, with global exports accounting for just 40%. This represents a dramatic reversal of the prior trend of the past 15 years or so.

    I think an operator who purchases 'Monopoly' will be able to collect solid cashbox returns for two or three years, then sell it for 80% to 100% of its original price. There will be a shortage and collectors will go crazy for them. So if your focus as an operator is return on investment, you can't go wrong with pinball today"


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Baiter said:

    No, Stern has been producing around 10k for a while. Here's an article from 2010... before the big demand spike. Lots of interesting info in there, probably better off reading this article than relying on the misinformation found in many threads:
    http://www.sternpinball.com/About/News/game-roi-and-reliability.aspx
    A few tidbits:
    "Stern estimates global sales remain stable at 8,000-10,000 units annually, much as they have been for a couple of years now.
    Gary Stern estimates 60% of pinball sales today go to the U.S. market, with global exports accounting for just 40%. This represents a dramatic reversal of the prior trend of the past 15 years or so.
    I think an operator who purchases 'Monopoly' will be able to collect solid cashbox returns for two or three years, then sell it for 80% to 100% of its original price. There will be a shortage and collectors will go crazy for them. So if your focus as an operator is return on investment, you can't go wrong with pinball today"

    If you read carefully you will notice the article was written in 2001/2002. Sales for machines were around 8000-10000 annually up until about 2005. Then Stern had a downfall in sales it appears. That is why they had a financial crisis. The serial numbers on the machines as Keith (a former Stern employee) alluded to above suggest that Stern is making around 6000 total machines a year at best now.


    Sunfox

    Pinball addict
    1,622,550 3
    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Between my TSPP built in Apr 2003 and my BSM in Dec 2007, Stern built 42,800 machines over 4.6 years, for an average of 9,300 per year. The average between my BDK and the AC/DC mentioned earlier is 4,400 per year.

    Between November 2009 and present, Stern has released:

    Iron Man
    Big Buck Hunter Pro
    Avatar
    Tron
    Rolling Stones
    Transformers
    AC/DC

    Which would mean an average production of 1,500 per title (ignoring any reruns of previously released titles, such as LOTR LE, which would only lower the number), including limited editions. Of course, not all of those are done, and AC/DC is still brand new.

    It would be nice to see Stern get back to the 10,000 games per year mark.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    Baiter said:

    No, Stern has been producing around 10k for a while. Here's an article from 2010... before the big demand spike. Lots of interesting info in there, probably better off reading this article than relying on the misinformation found in many threads:

    You quoted that article quite a bit. But you didn't quote this part:

    Pinball, a game category whose very survival was questioned by some as recently as two years ago, is enjoying a contained but passionate renaissance as 2002 dawns.

    So, despite me providing actual numerical evidence (unless I'm lying out of my butt just to win an internet argument, which you are freely welcome to believe) and actually WORKING THERE for 9 years, you want to continue to say I'm providing "misinformation?"
    Just FYI, that article was BS then, even. 2000 saw the release of Striker Xtreme and Sharkey's Shootout, and a bunch more South Parks and Harley Davidsons. To say 5000 games were made that year is probably pushing it, but it's probably pretty close to accurate. 2001 saw HRC, AP, and Monopoly, along with more HD and SP. Probably hit 6000 or real close to it that year. 2002 (future time for that article) saw Playboy, RCT, and a bunch of reruns. Guessing around 7000 for that year. 2003 saw TSPP and T3 and of course reruns. Maybe hitting 8000 here (probably pushing it). 2004 (LOTR, Elvis, RBION) is the only year I know for a fact that 10K was cleared.
    Look, if you're a business owner, of course you're going to say there's great demand for your product. But that doesn't make it true.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    6000 or 10000 is still a lot of pins in a market all other companies left for dead (until recently). I am glad they continued to feed the community pins even when times got rough during the last decade. Stern will very likely be putting out more pins than any other company per year for at least the next couple of years because they consistently make multiple designs a year.

    I hope all new comers and Stern have great success because in the end that means more pins and greater diversity within designs.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    100% believe Keith's numbers- first hand knowledge speaks volumes.

    Once again, hope both companies sell enough to prosper and stay in business.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    JDG1980 said:

    Well, for one thing, Bally/Williams mostly sold games to operators. The current Stern/JJP market is focused on home users.

    Wrong #1. Sterns biggest market is their European distributors. Not home users. JJP has no customers as they have yet to make a machine.

    > This means prices can be higher, since the machines are purchased as an entertainment luxury item and not as a piece of working capital that is expected to earn return on investment.
    NIB Bally/Williams machines retailed for about $3000 in the late 1990s, if I'm not mistaken. Modern Sterns are considerably more expensive, even the "basic" editions. Inflation can't account for the difference, since we've had very low inflation the entire time from then until now. This makes a real difference to profit margins.

    Wrong #2. Those BW machines were made 20 years ago now. Name one thing that is the same price as it was in 1993. Nothing. Are you getting the same wages as you were in 1993? I think not. Are cars the same price as in 1993? No.

    >Because JJP could charge $7500 for a NIB MM and get plenty of takers, while B/W had to settle for $3000.

    It was 20 years ago. I'm sure if an accounting firm adjusted for the 20 years that "only $3000" would in fact be $10,000 2012 dollars. Or damn close to it.

    Dave.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    The thing that is scary about the more recent year's production numbers is that the LE's are probably close to half of the pins made for those respective titles (i.e AC/DC, TF, XMEN, Avatar will all probably be close to 50/50 LE to Pro models). This is even more likely to be true when you consider that us collectors have become the predominate market for NIB pinball machines.
    The exceptions most likely are SM and Tron. It did not seem that Stern expected Tron to sell as well as it did from the fact that they had to scramble to get parts to make another run or two.

    Also, the numbers above also explain a little about why it was/is difficult to find decently priced SM and IM. There simply are not as many out there as we probably thought there were. I would guess that there are somewhere near 2000 IM made and probably 2500-3000 SM (including BSM).
    Also, we rarely see a Stern BDK go up for sale here. I would guess that they did not make more than 1500 of those.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Not sure what the advantage would be, my guess is you would not save much money if any over a restored one, so just buy a restored one. Personally I like that we are getting new titles with innovation, new ideas, etc. let the passion the industry has right now translate into new and awesome.......any one can just do a rerun. There will always be super collectible machines, that's what makes this hobby fun, the scavenger hunt!


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    No to reproduce. Time to innovate.

    Stern are producing at least 3 titles a year whereas Jack may only do one title so despite WOZ looking like a superior build, Stern will continue to sell as they are getting some great themes.

    Looking at WOZ I would love Jack to implement his technology in some sort of Sci-fi pin. With JJP ideas a futuristic theme could show off their technology.

    Wonder if time to get out an unlicensed run before Hobbit?


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    rotordave said:

    It was 20 years ago. I'm sure if an accounting firm adjusted for the 20 years that "only $3000" would in fact be $10,000 2012 dollars. Or damn close to it.

    $3000 in 1992 would be $4914 in 2012


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #
    DCFAN said:

    The thing that is scary about the more recent year's production numbers is that the LE's are probably close to half of the pins made for those respective titles (i.e AC/DC, TF, XMEN, Avatar will all probably be close to 50/50 LE to Pro models). This is even more likely to be true when you consider that us collectors have become the predominate market for NIB pinball machines.
    The exceptions most likely are SM and Tron. It did not seem that Stern expected Tron to sell as well as it did from the fact that they had to scramble to get parts to make another run or two.
    Also, the numbers above also explain a little about why it was/is difficult to find decently priced SM and IM. There simply are not as many out there as we probably thought there were. I would guess that there are somewhere near 2000 IM made and probably 2500-3000 SM (including BSM).
    Also, we rarely see a Stern BDK go up for sale here. I would guess that they did not make more than 1500 of those.

    I kind of doubt whether there were 2000 Iron Man's produced. I would guess closer to 1000 to 1500, and part of those were 'classics'.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    When I first read your original post, it sounded like a cool idea, but after reading many of the comments left by others, I started to sway towards no. Forgive me if this has been said already, I didn't have time at work to read all of the comments....

    But, similar to the fans of Star Wars feel. The classics should be left alone, because finding one of these, and having them the way they exist is a true treasure. I don't think JJP should tinker, even if there wasn't any change other than JJP's stamp, there's still something different to the new ones, and that takes away the integrity of the old school pins. I still think the idea is cool at first look, and it makes for a thought provoking debate. So, I say nice post, but in the end I'm with the majority.


    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    I'm all for original new themes, go forward guys! (but if they did come out with a NIB AFM or MM of course I would snap em up!)


    StevenP

    Pinball master
    3,338,000 4
    1 year, 10 months ago
    #

    Arguments favoring new titles aside (and I too am in favor of this), it would likely be harder/more costly to reproduce some older titles, esp. in limited runs. Why? Because this would require sourcing and assembling the same parts and wiring and components that were in the original games. From what I've generally seen (admittedly lacking detailed knowledge), JJP has adopted some new component/assembly features to streamline production and reduce costs. They could do this because they started the design from scratch, so they weren't tied into an existing infrastructure. So, having to adhere to older designs (with how many miles of wire harness per game?) would be tougher than more costly than their current set-up. JJP has the JJP assembly line in place, not the old WMS/Bally/Stern ones.



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