(Topic ID: 73169)

RFM: experiences replacing the CRT with an LCD/LED

By snaroff

10 years ago


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There are 58 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

If you've replaced your CRT with an LCD/LED, I'm interested if you are happy with the results. I'm also interested in hearing your installation feedback…was it straightforward? What size/make monitor did you go with?

Just to be clear…I'm not talking about NUCORE…simply talking about replacing the CRT (with a Great Lakes Modular bracket, LockWhenLit CGA/VGA Converter, and 22" monitor).

Thanks for any info!

#2 10 years ago

I like that it runs cooler and leaves a lot of open space in the head, but on the downside, it kind of ruins the 3D-effect of the floating image. I have yet to find a LCD monitor with great black levels; even if you mask off the LCD to match the original aspect ratio, you still get a light glow from the "unlit" pixels that makes the whole screen visible. But I'm pretty fussy.

#3 10 years ago

I have both RFM and SWE1 Replaced my monitor on the RFM when it died with a 22" wide screen LED Dell refurb monitor I picked up from dell for $99.00 delivered and got the mount and the cga to vga converter from Rob Anthony his website is http://lockwhenlit.com/ It was a pretty easy install, biggest pain was getting the converter set to
english so I could tweak all the video settings. Don't be cheap and get the mount bracket, it makes life easy.
I am very happy with the results. Brighter colors and seems sharper. It shows wider than the stock monitor. Runs cooler and makes the pin a lot lighter
The only downside is the blacks are not as black as with a tube monitor.
When I look side by side on both machines RFM wins on video quality over SWE1 with original monitor

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from 80spit:

It shows wider than the stock monitor.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

#5 10 years ago
Quoted from shirkle:

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Using a wide screen, you can adjust the width of the screen a bit wider than the stock monitor and center up the
images using the settings on the converter card. Images still lined up good with the target switches. The stock monitor is a little narrower than the reflective playfield glass

#6 10 years ago

80spit, how do you go about changing the converter settings to English? I have been trying to figure this out for awhile

#7 10 years ago

Ok. I was just curious how it could be both wider and still line up.
One problem I had with the original monitor was that it wasn't lining up correctly and couldn't be adjusted because it had no horizontal width coil and the regular pots weren't working. I ended up having to do a cap kit on it which fixed it. It was really annoying when it didn't line up though. Should be good to go for another 10-15 years now!

#8 10 years ago

Wouldn't be that hard to get a 19" VGA CRT and use that. Best of both worlds.

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from mwiltoncos:

80spit, how do you go about changing the converter settings to English? I have been trying to figure this out for awhile

It took me quite a while to get it into English, plus a sore neck trying to look at under the head while hitting the adjustment buttons for the OSD I believe it was on the last menu where you can change it to english, board
defaults to Chinese out of the box. Once in English it was easy and lots of adjustment features
I wondered about the width being a problem too. but it lined up great, and I could shift the display from side to side
to center it perfectly

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from 80spit:

I have both RFM and SWE1 Replaced my monitor on the RFM when it died with a 22" wide screen LED Dell refurb monitor I picked up from dell for $99.00 delivered and got the mount and the cga to vga converter from Rob Anthony his website is http://lockwhenlit.com/ It was a pretty easy install, biggest pain was getting the converter set to
english so I could tweak all the video settings. Don't be cheap and get the mount bracket, it makes life easy.
I am very happy with the results. Brighter colors and seems sharper. It shows wider than the stock monitor. Runs cooler and makes the pin a lot lighter
The only downside is the blacks are not as black as with a tube monitor.
When I look side by side on both machines RFM wins on video quality over SWE1 with original monitor

Great advice…thanks so much. Definitely want to "do it right"…the example I'm upgrading is perfect in every other respect (clear coated PF, low plays, not a scratch on the cabinet). Unfortunately, it has a Ducksan monitor that is looking tired and I'd rather not invest in it (brightness is fine, just not sharp any more).

Here's the monitor I'm considering…do you think the size/specs are appropriate for this application?

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN22F5000-22-Inch-1080p-60Hz/dp/B00BCGRX9M/ref=sr_1_1

Do you remember how long it took you to install? How difficult was it to get the characters aligned properly? I believe this is done with Rob's board?

Thanks again for the input,

snaroff

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Great advice…thanks so much. Definitely want to "do it right"…the example I'm upgrading is perfect in every other respect (clear coated PF, low plays, not a scratch on the cabinet). Unfortunately, it has a Ducksan monitor that is looking tired and I'd rather not invest in it (brightness is fine, just not sharp any more).
Here's the monitor I'm considering…do you think the size/specs are appropriate for this application?
&tag=pinsidecom05-20" target="_blank">amazon.com link »
Do you remember how long it took you to install? How difficult was it to get the characters aligned properly? I believe this is done with Rob's board?
Thanks again for the input,
snaroff

I would not use a HDTV, you don't need that resolution, and your paying extra for the TV any good 22" computer monitor should work fine, I would get and LED over an LCD though, less power an less heat. Look for one with a nice flat back on it. I used Rob's board which has the grey dongle on it which you need, install took about an hour, screwing around with the display settings another hour
once you get the board set in english it's easy, but I ended up trying alot of different settings, then after gameplay
I tweaked it once or twice

#12 10 years ago

Power/heat should be a total nonissue when you consider that you're replacing a CRT. Either type of monitor is a dramatic improvement in both.

You don't have to use that grey dongle. It's nice, as it pulls 5v from the VGA cable, but you can supply 5v for the converter from anywhere else and it will work just fine. It should also be noted that the board isn't "Rob's board". That board is available a lot of places. What Rob has done here is packed it up nicely with his method for grabbing 5v and made it available along with the mount bracket.

#13 10 years ago

rob's dongle does more than just grab the 5v and that's the reason why he sells the dongle separately for about $100

I opened mine up and there's a circuit board with a asic chip on it (I believe that he's doing something to correct the black levels and horizontal sync issues, but don't quote me).

I'm still surprised that everyone is going with widescreen displays. a decent 19" 4:3 aspect monitor can be had [on ebay] for less than $100 and its same size, aspect ratio as the original CRT display

#14 10 years ago

Ah, didn't know there was correction going on in the dongle too. Sweet. Learn something new every day!

#15 10 years ago

can someone please reccomend the BEST LED replacement monitor that will work for this conversion?

Is there any benefit to 22" over 19"?

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from 80spit:

I would not use a HDTV, you don't need that resolution, and your paying extra for the TV any good 22" computer monitor should work fine, I would get and LED over an LCD though, less power an less heat. Look for one with a nice flat back on it. I used Rob's board which has the grey dongle on it which you need, install took about an hour, screwing around with the display settings another hour
once you get the board set in english it's easy, but I ended up trying alot of different settings, then after gameplay
I tweaked it once or twice

I think it's really hard to find an LED-lit LCD that doesn't support HD. Nevertheless, you are correct that the Samsung @ ~$180 is overkill. Here is one for $130 that has great specs (especially on contrast):

http://www.amazon.com/VS228H-P-22-Inch-Full-HD-LED-Lit-Monitor/dp/B005BZNDOO/ref=zg_tr_1292115011_13#Ratio

Not familiar with the brand, but seems to have great reviews and hard to complain about the price.

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I think it's really hard to find an LED-lit LCD that doesn't support HD. Nevertheless, you are correct that the Samsung @ ~$180 is overkill. Here is one for $130 that has great specs (especially on contrast):
&tag=pinsidecom05-20" target="_blank">amazon.com link »
Not familiar with the brand, but seems to have great reviews and hard to complain about the price.

That looks like a contender, and should work fine, here's one on the cheap with free shipping at
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8142827&CatId=4124

#18 10 years ago

If you guys got the CGA/VGA converter from me as well as the gray adapter, my apologies for not having them pre-set for English. I missed a few over the past few months with my schedule as crazy as it's been.

Coming from me, they should already be set to English. All future shipments will absolutely be set to English.

Again, my apologies for missing some.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#20 10 years ago

That monitor looks like it fits perfect!

Do you happen to know the correct dimensions of the hole fromt eh backside? I did not want to remove the old CRT till I source the replacement. I would like to find something that fits perfect.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

rob's dongle does more than just grab the 5v and that's the reason why he sells the dongle separately for about $100
I opened mine up and there's a circuit board with a asic chip on it (I believe that he's doing something to correct the black levels and horizontal sync issues, but don't quote me).
I'm still surprised that everyone is going with widescreen displays. a decent 19" 4:3 aspect monitor can be had [on ebay] for less than $100 and its same size, aspect ratio as the original CRT display

The reason I'm looking @ widescreen is they typically have the latest/greatest technology and specs.

For example, the monitor I'm considering has a 50,000,000 contrast ratio (which I believe will give me black levels that are competitive with the CRT it's replacing). At $130, it's hard to not just get the best technology possible. If "doing it right" ends up costing me $300 bucks, it's still an inexpensive mod (the price of one sheet of non-glare glass

snaroff

#22 10 years ago

Decided to get this monitor:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824133087&nm_mc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel&cm_mmc=TEMC-RMA-Approvel-_-Content-_-text-_-

After consulting with Tony Clark (designer of the mount), he educated me that the key thing to look for is the physical case (since it's fitting in the old monitor cutout). Curved backs, mounts, and location of the power cord can be less than ideal for this application.

Pictures in this manual so how the back of this monitor should drop right in with no mods to the TV, cabinet, or mount

http://download.p4c.philips.com/files/2/220b4lpcb_00/220b4lpcb_00_dfu_aen.pdf

They also make this same monitor without speakers ($20 less expensive). Unfortunately, I ordered the one with speakers…oh well.

I'll report back on how it all turns out in a couple weeks...

#23 10 years ago

I picked up the mount and conversion kit from rob, but I have yet to install the dell p190s monitor that I picked up for $70 (it has the exact same specs to the philips: 5ms refresh, 250 cd/m2 brightness, viewing angle of 170 degrees (horizontal) and 160 degrees (vertical) but only a 800 contrast vs. the 1,000 on the philips)

the only thing which has kept me from installing it is figuring out what I need to do to convert the power cord for the lcd panel from the hardwired CRT

#24 10 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The reason I'm looking @ widescreen is they typically have the latest/greatest technology and specs.
For example, the monitor I'm considering has a 50,000,000 contrast ratio (which I believe will give me black levels that are competitive with the CRT it's replacing). At $130, it's hard to not just get the best technology possible. If "doing it right" ends up costing me $300 bucks, it's still an inexpensive mod (the price of one sheet of non-glare glass
snaroff

Fifty million to one? You sure that's not dynamic?

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from ChadTower:

Fifty million to one? You sure that's not dynamic?

it is. the specs show an actual contrast ratio of 1,000 (and a dynamic ratio of 20,000,000) for the philips that he purchased

#26 10 years ago

Heh, that's actually not very good.

#27 10 years ago

I'm told that the manufacturer specs are often hogwash and you need to simply judge the picture for the application. And as I said in a previous post, having it "drop in" without hacking away @ the monitor is a goal.

I'm hopeful this turns out to be a nice upgrade….time will tell! Compared with buying/shipping pins remotely and sending strangers mucho dinero, this is a fairly low risk endeavor

#28 10 years ago

Worst case scenario is that you cut a piece of plywood as a frame adapter and mount the monitor to that. That is maybe 45 minutes of work.

#29 10 years ago

the original CRT is hardwired from the circuit board with loose ground, neutral and hot wires

how are you guys modifying the lcd panel to get power? hacking up the standard ac cord and then re-soldering the wires to where the CRT lines ran or is there a more elegant solution?

#30 10 years ago

note:
a piece of black posterboard cut to size will not only hide any power or other indicators on the front of the lcd panel when you install it, but allow eliminate any light surrounding the panel from leaking out onto the playfield glass

#31 10 years ago

Status and request for help. Here goes…

The Philips monitor and GLM bracket fit great! The only obstacle was the screws that plug into the TV were too short (easily fixed with a trip to the local ACE hardware). Thanks to Tony Clark for helping me select the monitor…fit like it was made for the machine…no hacks necessary

Unfortunately, the LockWhenLit plug-and-play board doesn't seem to work for me. I emailed Rob and haven't heard back yet, so I thought I'd post here. I think the board/connector assume 5v is being supplied from the video card/cable. If so, that's my problem. My RFM had a Ducksan monitor and the 10 pins being used to transmit the CGA over the VGA cable don't include power.

As you can see below, my box contains quite a few unused connectors that I believe supply the red/black power/ground necessary to drive the LockWhenLit plug-n-play board (pic below). Rob says on his website that "Adaptor plugs are available if needed". I imagine this is what I need? Too bad it didn't come with the plug-and-play kit, since I believe that supplying power over this CGA/VGA cable is nonstandard.

Any advice is appreciated…would love to get this up and running today.

IMG_2229.JPGIMG_2229.JPGIMG_2230.JPGIMG_2230.JPG

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

the original CRT is hardwired from the circuit board with loose ground, neutral and hot wires
how are you guys modifying the lcd panel to get power? hacking up the standard ac cord and then re-soldering the wires to where the CRT lines ran or is there a more elegant solution?

I bought this adapter from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FBA1U8K/ref=pe_385040_30332200_pe_309540_26725410_item

Should plug directly into the top socket (see picture of the cpu box above).

#33 10 years ago

snaroff:

check the back side of the vga/cga converter board. there should be a [yellow?] wire running to the 5v on the board from one of the VGA pin headers (I noticed this on mine and can take a photo when I get home tonight for you).

I think that rob did this to save a buck or two instead of running a 2-wire line to a tiny molex connector that he includes on the "BYO" adapter only kit. the 2-line connection would normally connect to corresponding power connector on the converter board as shown on his site [and here]).

CGA2.JPGCGA2.JPG

ps
cheers for the link and the information. it never even dawned on me to use the 2nd ac outlet from the computer's power supply

#34 10 years ago

A very small percentage of P2K motherboards do not supply 5V to the VGA cable. This 5V is required to power the adapter and converter. The wire on the back of the converter does indeed take the needed 5V to where it needs to be. The use of the wire compared to the pigtail plug is much less about cost than it is about time. It's a difference of pennies as compared to a difference of minutes. The minutes matter, the pennies, not so much.

The current VGA cable standard passes 5V through the VGA cable, some older cables do not, so check that too. If pin 9 is missing from the VGA cable, it is not the standard and will not supply the needed 5V.

Also, as noted on my site, NEVER apply more than 5V to the converter. You WILL fry the board.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#35 10 years ago

As another option I have that board in a Berzerk running off a 5v wall wart inside the cab. Has never had a problem that way.

#36 10 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

A very small percentage of P2K motherboards do not supply 5V to the VGA cable.

When folks started flocking to the video amp, it seems like quite a few of us realized we weren't getting 5V through the VGA cable. Seems like a fair number of Ducksan monitors had this problem. Since you are a domain expert on Pinball 2000, I'm sure you know about this problem.

Isn't VGA a 15 pin standard? Since my RFM is only using 10 pins and it's outputting CGA, the platform is clearly taking liberty with the "standard" (so the fact that VGA is suppose to output 5V is kind of meaningless, since we aren't really dealing with VGA (the whole purpose of this plug-and-play product).

From my perspective, a product labeled "plug and play" should consider how the device will be powered (especially since I can buy the same board you are selling for $25 on ebay). Don't think it's too much to ask for the extra $100 you are charging.

I'll be sending the product back…really wanted this to work for my kids over the holiday visit. Oh well…fortunately, we have plenty of other pins to keep us busy.

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

When folks started flocking to the video amp, it seems like quite a few of us realized we weren't getting 5V through the VGA cable. Seems like a fair number of Ducksan monitors had this problem. Since you are a domain expert on Pinball 2000, I'm sure you know about this problem.
Isn't VGA a 15 pin standard? Since my RFM is only using 10 pins and it's outputting CGA, the platform is clearly taking liberty with the "standard" (so the fact that VGA is suppose to output 5V is kind of meaningless, since we aren't really dealing with VGA (the whole purpose of this plug-and-play product).
From my perspective, a product labeled "plug and play" should consider how the device will be powered (especially since I can buy the same board you are selling for $25 on ebay). Don't think it's too much to ask for the extra $100 you are charging.
I'll be sending the product back…really wanted this to work for my kids over the holiday visit. Oh well…fortunately, we have plenty of other pins to keep us busy.

Man, there's just so much incorrect information here I don't know where to start, in fact I won't, I feel like I'm pounding my head against the wall at this point, and my time is much better spent elsewhere. I will say however, and as I stated in my email to you, the Ducksan monitor has NOTHING to do with any kind of compatibility with an LCD in P2K games. Why you're stuck on that is beyond me.

I'm more than happy to give you a full refund on return of my adapter/converter. Very sorry it didn't work out for you. Good luck with your $25 eBay board.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#38 10 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

Man, there's just so much incorrect information here I don't know where to start, in fact I won't, I feel like I'm pounding my head against the wall at this point, and my time is much better spent elsewhere. I will say however, and as I stated in my email to you, the Ducksan monitor has NOTHING to do with any kind of compatibility with an LCD in P2K games. Why you're stuck on that is beyond me.
I'm more than happy to give you a full refund on return of my adapter/converter. Very sorry it didn't work out for you. Good luck with your $25 eBay board.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

The "plug and play" product you sent me doesn't even power on…that's the bottom line (and not "misinformation").

#39 10 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

Good luck with your $25 eBay board.
--

No plans to purchase any CGA->VGA solution after failing with your plug-and-play solution...decided to wait for nucore, which I'm hopeful will be available soon.

#40 10 years ago

"Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nice shootin', Tex!"

The problem isn't Rob's adapter/converter snaroff. It's just some games don't have the 5V present in the VGA cable and that's IT. Blaming him for a faulty product is not the answer.
Unfortunately you have the older unit (like me) and need to run a separate 5V connector to the converter board.
You have all the juice you need to do it from the CPU as pictured above.
See the 4 pin molex connector that is hanging out of your box with the red, black, black, yellow wires attached to it?
The outer red wire is the 5V and the black wire next to it is ground...
Simply make a red wire/black wire connector (using a 4 pin male housing) to plug into that one hanging out and run the newly made pair of wires to the spot on the board where j_m_'s picture shows the wires feeding the board underneath your pic (Disregard Rob's wiring from grey adapter btw) and make a new smaller 2 pin connector to that.

I don't know if it's too late or not after reading this but, Rob is a good guy and if you would ask politely maybe he could whip you up this extra 5V 2 wire connector if you don't feel like making this yourself.
His grey adapter that is pictured underneath works as advertised in converting the signal but again, with some of the older RFM's that had the Ducksan already in it you'll still need to power it separately, just like with the aforementioned 5V CRT amplifier mod.

Hope that helps!

#41 10 years ago

Thanks NibblePin. An adapter cable was on its way to snaroff, but after Christmas wasn't fast enough, so a complete refund it is.

And no the CGA/VGA converter from my site is not the problem. In the years I've been offering all versions of this converter, and the hundreds that have been shipped, this is the first time someone didn't get their monitor up and running and will have gotten a refund. As mentioned on my site and a few times in this thread, a very small percentage of games don't supply 5V through the VGA output of the motherboard. These cases need the adapter cable that I send out at no cost to anyone that has needed it.

Also, for anyone that doesn't know, the $25 eBay board does not work for P2K games. That is, not without additional sync circuitry that is included in my adapter.

Again snaroff, sorry it didn't work out for you. Happy Holidays to everyone!!!

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#42 10 years ago

Keep up the good work Rob. I don't have any of your product in my RFM (yet) but I can tell by the posts here you know what your doing and I will be contacting you if and when I do need something.

Patience is a virtue and not everyone has patience.

QSS

#43 10 years ago
Quoted from NimblePin:

"Whoa, whoa, whoa! Nice shootin', Tex!"
The problem isn't Rob's adapter/converter snaroff. It's just some games don't have the 5V present in the VGA cable and that's IT. Blaming him for a faulty product is not the answer.
Unfortunately you have the older unit (like me) and need to run a separate 5V connector to the converter board.
You have all the juice you need to do it from the CPU as pictured above.
See the 4 pin molex connector that is hanging out of your box with the red, black, black, yellow wires attached to it?
The outer red wire is the 5V and the black wire next to it is ground...
Simply make a red wire/black wire connector (using a 4 pin male housing) to plug into that one hanging out and run the newly made pair of wires to the spot on the board where j_m_'s picture shows the wires feeding the board underneath your pic (Disregard Rob's wiring from grey adapter btw) and make a new smaller 2 pin connector to that.
I don't know if it's too late or not after reading this but, Rob is a good guy and if you would ask politely maybe he could whip you up this extra 5V 2 wire connector if you don't feel like making this yourself.
His grey adapter that is pictured underneath works as advertised in converting the signal but again, with some of the older RFM's that had the Ducksan already in it you'll still need to power it separately, just like with the aforementioned 5V CRT amplifier mod.
Hope that helps!

NimblePin, I understand…I'm not confused at all (but thanks for the summary). I fully understand the board isn't the problem! Since the board never received power, I have no opinion on the board per se.

My point is this: If the lack of 5V is a known issue and you are selling a "plug and play" solution for $137, why wouldn't the seller at least ask if your VGA connector is supplying power? If not, he would include the appropriate wires/connector? Rob and I were in touch via email and I've used his services before for board work.

I've had great experiences with Rob in the past and have sung his praises. This isn't about being a "bad guy". In this instance, his product/service fell short of my expectations. OTOH, Tony Clark (who sold me the bracket) went out of his way to make sure I was looking at monitors that would fit without hacking/slashing at the enclosure. He understood that I wanted a "plug and play" solution.

I'm guilty of being impatient…as I said, I wanted this to work for the holiday's and didn't feel like building power cords myself. If one was available on Amazon, I would have purchased it and moved forward.

snaroff

#44 10 years ago

It looks like there is a disclaimer of sorts on the product page mentioning that "Most P2K games supply 5V to the converter through the VGA cable".. maybe there is a way via board markings or components to verify this? Possibly a continuity test on a few points on the board(s) for someone that is more technically inclined so they can perform this test prior to ordering? Or just supply the cable regardless and if needed charge another $5-10 or whatever is worth the time to make the cable just so it comes packaged with everything that might be needed instead of the customer being excited to get their package only to find they need an additional cable for it to be truly plug-and-play. Just some thoughts if I was looking to buy one and didn't know if my board would need the additional cable.

#45 10 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

It looks like there is a disclaimer of sorts on the product page mentioning that "Most P2K games supply 5V to the converter through the VGA cable".. maybe there is a way via board markings or components to verify this? Possibly a continuity test on a few points on the board(s) for someone that is more technically inclined so they can perform this test prior to ordering? Or just supply the cable regardless and if needed charge another $5-10 or whatever is worth the time to make the cable just so it comes packaged with everything that might be needed instead of the customer being excited to get their package only to find they need an additional cable for it to be truly plug-and-play. Just some thoughts if I was looking to buy one and didn't know if my board would need the additional cable.

As far as I know, only Ducksan monitors fail to supply 5V through the VGA cable. Not all of them, but a significant number (I know several other RFM owners that had a Ducksan with no power on the cable). That said, just identifying what monitor you have would help. If you have a Wells-Gardner monitor, your good-to-go. If you have a Ducksan, you get charged a few more bucks for including a power cord that's compatible with the P2K power supply harness.

Just to be clear, these comments are made in the spirit of helping the next guy who is trying to accomplish this transformation. As time passes, more and more CRT's are going to fail and making this as painless as possible is goodness.

#46 10 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

As far as I know, only Ducksan monitors fail to supply 5V through the VGA cable. Not all of them, but a significant number (I know several other RFM owners that had a Ducksan with no power on the cable). That said, just identifying what monitor you have would help. If you have a Wells-Gardner monitor, your good-to-go. If you have a Ducksan, you get charged a few more bucks for including a power cord that's compatible with the P2K power supply harness.
Just to be clear, these comments are made in the spirit of helping the next guy who is trying to accomplish this transformation. As time passes, more and more CRT's are going to fail and making this as painless as possible is goodness.

Please help me understand how a monitor, completely removed from the game for an LCD install, and has nothing to do with 5V in ANY part of the game, has any bearing on whether a separate power source is needed. It doesn't!

I've said that several times in email and right here in this thread, but you keep somehow going back to a Ducksan monitor not providing 5V???? HOW?? WHY???

A DUCKSAN MONITOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 5 VOLTS TO *ANYTHING* IN P2K GAMES!

I can't get more clear and more blunt than that.

Now, the good out of all this banging my head against the wall is I will add an option to include the power harness with any of the VGA/CGA converters from my site. So if you think you may need it, or want to be sure you don't, just add it. Again though, the vast majority of motherboards (where the 5V comes from, not the monitor that isn't in the game any more) supply the 5V just fine and do not need the power harness.

So if you look in your game and you have a Ducksan monitor, you better add the power harness to your order.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#47 10 years ago

I've got to side with rob on this one and understand his frustration (as well as yours). his kit is fine just the way that it is. it documents that "some" (albeit a small number) of the pin2k computers do not supply the necessary 5v on pin 9 of the vga port coming FROM the computer.

for those particular systems (monitor really has nothing to do with it, since it's the source end which is not supplying the 5v), it's pretty easy to check with a volt meter and a vga diagram to see if your system has the necessary voltage running hot. if you're one of the "unlucky" few, then you need to grab the 5v from somewhere else (easily done from any of the extra, unused molex connectors inside of the computer case.

I've got a RFM with a ducksan monitor and *my* system wasn't one of those affected. however, I *read* his webpage and knew exactly what I was getting into when I purchased it.

snaroff:
I understand that you may have been unhappy and upset because after receiving your "plug-and-play" kit, you were not able to get it up and running (without a quick trip to radio shack or a mom & pop electronics store, however *you* really should have taken the time to read the directions on rob's site:

http://lockwhenlit.com/CGA.htm
<quote>Most P2K games supply 5V to the converter through the VGA cable so no external power supply is needed. If the red LED on the converter does not light up, then your computer does not. You will need to supply the converter with the needed 5V. Under no circumstances should any more than 5V be used. Adapter plugs are available if needed, please email for details.</quote>

rob should have probably elaborated a bit more, but given that the end-user for this product should have some basic electronic knowledge, a quick google search on "vga pinout" would have yielded the a plethora of images including this one, which clearly shows pin 9 supplying +5 volts
vga_pinout.jpgvga_pinout.jpg

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

Please help me understand how a monitor, completely removed from the game for an LCD install, and has nothing to do with 5V in ANY part of the game, has any bearing on whether a separate power source is needed. It doesn't!
I've said that several times in email and right here in this thread, but you keep somehow going back to a Ducksan monitor not providing 5V???? HOW?? WHY???
A DUCKSAN MONITOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH 5 VOLTS TO *ANYTHING* IN P2K GAMES!
I can't get more clear and more blunt than that.
Now, the good out of all this banging my head against the wall is I will add an option to include the power harness with any of the VGA/CGA converters from my site. So if you think you may need it, or want to be sure you don't, just add it. Again though, the vast majority of motherboards (where the 5V comes from, not the monitor that isn't in the game any more) supply the 5V just fine and do not need the power harness.
So if you look in your game and you have a Ducksan monitor, you better add the power harness to your order.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Rob,

Must be a communication problem. I fully understand a monitor doesn't provide the power. This should have been apparent from the rest of my comments (wrt to the cable). Since the monitor and cable in this device are tightly integrated, I was using the terms interchangeably (geez).

Banging your head against the wall? Man what a drama king you are! I don't see how talking down to a customer helps you. I'm certainly not a Pinball 2000 guru like you are, however I'm an accomplished software engineer (have several Apple patents and led the development of many software development languages/tools).

snaroff

-2
#49 10 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

I've got to side with rob on this one and understand his frustration (as well as yours).

Again, how old are we? Taking sides? Wow…gotta love social media.

Listen, I've seen ~10 RFM's since becoming more involved in the hobby. When collector friends of mine started installing the video amp (that needed power), several of them weren't getting power through the cable. In ALL instances, the cable was attached to a Ducksan monitor. That anecdotal evidence is what I base my comments on. This aspect of the Pinball 2000 wasn't specified in the manual, so anecdotal evidence is all I have.

#50 10 years ago

if you were aware that *YOUR* computer system didn't supply the required +5v, based on your supposed expertize with your collector friends, then this is something that you should have done a bit of research with on your own system (e.g. taking 2 minutes with a multi-meter and checked for the +5v) and then spoken to rob about directly *before* placing your order. it's quite clear what the kit includes and what it doesn't include.

I'm not attempting to defend rob's business practices, but I agree from a proprietor's point of view, that if only a small percentage of people are going to have this issue, why spend the extra money to bundle in something which isn't needed by 90% or more of your target customer base?

the fact he *clearly* states this on the information page for the product and that he and numerous pinsiders (including myself) have attempted to help you out here, however it appears that you keep going back to the fact that you seem to think that rob screwed you with this product. he's offered to make it right by sending you the needed cable, but that wasn't good enough. he's offered you a complete refund, but that still doesn't appear to be good either as you continue to make comments which are the equivalent of 'beating a dead horse'. call it a day and move on good sir

btw, I'm 7, but I'm told that I'm tall for my age and have a good grasp of electronics so my dad lets me help him with his pinball machines

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