(Topic ID: 17072)

Pop bumper fires with flipper activity

By Pinwiz1985

11 years ago


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  • 39 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by CNKay
  • Topic is favorited by 54 Pinsiders

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#51 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinwiz1985:

The only effect is arc suppression. Eventually the extreme heat from the arc begins to corrode the EOS contacts, and that causes loss of power. The capacitor absorbs the extra energy and dissipates it away. Less arc means less RF due to the arc being shorted to the cap.

Yes, I understand that part, but what I am unsure of is why it they (repair guides, Williams) insist to convert the series wound coil system to parallel in order to add the suppression capacitor. As quoted from my previous post above, adding the cap (so they say) won't help save the EOS in a series wound coil system:

"System 11 EOS switches use a 2.2 mfd 250 volt capacitor to be used ONLY with the parallel wound FL11630 flipper coils (used on F-14 Tomcat and later)"

"Games High Speed to Millionaire that use the series wound FL23/600-30/2600 flipper coils do not need this capacitor (it won't help save the EOS switch because the coil is wound in series, not parallel)."

As an example, Williams Pinbot includes a .1uf 500v spark suppression cap across the cabinet flipper switch contacts, but then doesn't put a cap on the series wound coils. So why protect the cab switches but not the EOS? It just seems they feel the cap does very little, if anything at all on the series wound coil system.

#52 10 years ago

On a parallel coil, the cap is across both coils where in the series wound coil the cap is only on the low power coil. Our reason for adding an EOS cap here is different. I wanted to alter the radiated emissions of the spark. Sparks emit energy across a very broad frequency range. So much so they were used in the first trans-atlantic radio transmissions. The cap the would become more and more of a resistor at really high frequencies, so a specialty cap with low high frequency series resistance would do even better. Doing whatever it can, it takes some of the energy out of the spark, and is biased towards the lower frequencies. My little 10 MHz scope could not even see a difference.

As far as switch wear, I don't think it will help much and this aligns with what you read in the Williams guide.

1 week later
#53 10 years ago

I did half of the rewiring I intend to do. I re-ran the cabinet flipper wiring. The cabinet harness is quite small but there is 120V, 43V, and 5 V wiring all squashed together, pretty awful design. There are several matrix switches tied up to the flipper wires in the cabinet for the tilt mechanism, the three coin slots, slam sensors, and the credit reset.

I cut the flipper wires at the flipper buttons and pulled the wires backward out of the harness all the way from the switches up to the connector on the solenoid board. Then I used clips to secure the wires away from everything else. Here is what it looks like in the cabinet. You can see the original orange, blue, and red wires either braided or twisted. Where they had to cross switch matrix lines on the left side of the cabinet, they crossed at right angles.

IMG_3031.JPGIMG_3031.JPG
IMG_3032.JPGIMG_3032.JPG
IMG_3033.JPGIMG_3033.JPG

The false fires of the bumper have gone way down again but happens every once in a while.
Here is the worst spike I have seen since the change. It is much narrower in time and lower in amplitude than in the posts above. Notice the time scale is 50 microsec versus 1 msec previously.
IMG_3036.JPGIMG_3036.JPG

Most of the spikes are really tiny now, and look like this one. Notice the time scale is now 1 microsec and clearly shows a nice ringing in the matrix from the flipper interference.
IMG_3038.JPGIMG_3038.JPG

Another one
IMG_3041.JPGIMG_3041.JPG

IMG_3038.JPGIMG_3038.JPG

IMG_3038.JPGIMG_3038.JPG

I hope to run a new power line on the playfield soon that should do a lot more to fix this once and for all.

#54 10 years ago

Damn dude, talk about going thermonuclear war on the problem! I agree though what you are doing to correct this is really the only surefire way to correct the phantom pops. As you have discovered with your oscope, all your efforts still will not completely eliminate it. Bad circuit design to reject RF and improper deployment of signal/power wires plague this generation of machines.

#55 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinwiz1985:

Damn dude, talk about going thermonuclear war on the problem! I agree though what you are doing to correct this is really the only surefire way to correct the phantom pops. As you have discovered with your oscope, all your efforts still will not completely eliminate it. Bad circuit design to reject RF and improper deployment of signal/power wires plague this generation of machines.

I am not really halfway there. The new playfield wiring will be the biggest fix. The harnesses there are the worst ones. I will report back once I get it done, I probably need another week or so.

#56 10 years ago

So, I have finally rewired the playfield. The spikes are unbelievably still there, I was really surprised. The flippers now have their own wiring separate from the main harnesses. However, the spike duration has been cut in half again. It turns out most of the improvement was from rewiring the cabinet harness.

Results:
Original wiring - ~8V spikes up to 500 microsec long, false bumper fired ~10-20 times per game.
Rewired cabinet - ~8V spikes up to 8 microsec long, false bumper fired ~1-2 times per game.
Rewired playfield - ~8V spikes now only 4 microsec long, false bumper fired ~1 time in 10 games.

Typical matrix ringing due to flipper fire
IMG_3060 - Copy-75.JPGIMG_3060 - Copy-75.JPG

New harness routed away from everything else at the top.
IMG_3061.JPGIMG_3061.JPG

Wires routed to the side of the head. The wires coming from and going to the flipper relay are now routed together.
IMG_3062.JPGIMG_3062.JPG

#57 10 years ago

Any chance the inductive kickback or load it causing a sag on the +5V line at the MPU board?
IE transient response of 43V solenoid load induces sag/surge on the 11.2V winding of transformer... which inturn causes sag/surge on the 5V linear regulator?

#58 10 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Any chance the inductive kickback or load it causing a sag on the +5V line at the MPU board?
IE transient response of 43V solenoid load induces sag/surge on the 11.2V winding of transformer... which inturn causes sag/surge on the 5V linear regulator?

I have not specifically measured that. I did check for ripple and the Alltek board has just a few mV ripple on the 5V. When I get a chance I will check for sag.

#59 10 years ago

BJM-Maxx, I applaud you for all your efforts. Your results are promising. In all honesty I don't know if running the solenoids off their own power supply would solve your problem. Pinballs are inherently very noisy in electrical terms, as you have pointed out. For most people doing the measures you have done is VERY impractical. Rewiring an entire wire harness is a big job for most people. Even with the newer Alltek boards this issue exists.

#60 10 years ago
Quoted from Pinwiz1985:

BJM-Maxx, I applaud you for all your efforts. Your results are promising. In all honesty I don't know if running the solenoids off their own power supply would solve your problem. Pinballs are inherently very noisy in electrical terms, as you have pointed out. For most people doing the measures you have done is VERY impractical. Rewiring an entire wire harness is a big job for most people. Even with the newer Alltek boards this issue exists.

I agree with what you are saying. If this thread at least educates people as to why the random pops are not actually random and that there are steps that can be taken then it has been worthwhile. My game functions well enough already. I am just wondering if I can actually do that little bit more just to say I did it. I am lucky enough to have several senior electronics engineers on my team at work who have deep EMI knowledge. They keep coming up with new things to try so for now I will.

A review of the design shows it was very poorly implemented. The high impedance of the matrix strobes and address lines at the board mean that the playfield wires are floating in free space like antennas that readily accept stray energy. If I am lucky I can find a key element that helps without having to rewire the machine. That would be good. At the end of the day, I think these machines always misbehaved.

#61 10 years ago

My take would be to run shielded twisted pair for the flipper power and/or flipper buttons. If you'd got it down to 1in10... the shield might be the remaining step to get it on board.
Or go the other way... shield the switch matrix at the pop bumper switches.

#62 10 years ago

I keep tinkering with this. Some new results.

Measured the 5V supply from the solenoid driver card (Alltek board in my case). It is rock solid, no changes. I think this eliminates the Vcc (5V) sag at least in my machine. The factory Bally card may be different especially if someone's 5V has drifted over the years (change those bad caps).

I was given a sniffer coil to try out. It is one those coils you used to put on older phone receivers to let you record phone calls. It is a very small coil with no core. I attached this to my scope and started sniffing. Held it up to the transformer and got a nice strong 60Hz signal as a baseline. The scope itself created a big high frequency signal at what I believe is the Atmel controller internal clock frequency. All these things drop to near zero more than 1inch away. Most of the space under the playfield has nearly no measurable magnetic fields, you have to be up tight to another wire or coil to see anything. Unfortunately that is why these machines have problems. The original design was to tie wrap everything together.

Then I held it up to a flipper coil and fired it a few times.
1.jpg1.jpg

This was the result, keep in mind this is the result of a magnetic field interacting with the coil I am holding. This means the trace is the rate of change of current flow in the sensor. The actual numbers are not directly in the pinball machines circuits. These traces varied a lot, some looked like mounds, others were decaying sine waves.

2.jpg2.jpg

Then I held it up to the bumper coil.
3.jpg3.jpg

Here is the result. Although lower by a lot, in terms of signals transmitting over distance, pinball coils act like excellent repeaters. Because Bally chose to ground coils to fire them, they all have the same 43 V power at the same time. Ripples in the flippers cause ripples in every coil and the large magnetic field pulse happens at every coil, they look pretty much the same all over the machine.

4.jpg4.jpg

So, once again I pulled the coil fuse on the playfield.
5.jpg5.jpg

This is the result. A hugely reduced spike made it to the coils.

6.jpg6.jpg

What this seems to mean is that although I got a huge improvement by creating dedicated wiring to the flippers separated in space from the main harness, the remaining crosstalk is still conducted around the playfield by the power lines to the coils which of course are all over the place and need lots of wiring that inductively couples into the switch matrix wiring.

Conclusions:

- To fully fix this I would have to power the flippers from their own 43 V source that is not split off from the coil circuit as I have now.
- This also means putting shield or braid around my new flipper wiring will not help since this is not a radiated problem (nothing is being broadcast across the inside of the machine.
- The EOS spark could broadcast some noise but I am not measuring anything from the sparks (at least not is the frequency range of my little scope).

I have one more thing to try but I am pretty close to the end of the road on this.

#63 10 years ago

So your thinking ...
Coils wired to rectifier... and Flippers as well. Both on their own circuit.
Are you going to put a EMI choke on the coils?

Maybe large CAPs at the power Bumpers to reduce the 43V spike?

#64 10 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

So your thinking ...
Coils wired to rectifier... and Flippers as well. Both on their own circuit.
Are you going to put a EMI choke on the coils?
Maybe large CAPs at the power Bumpers to reduce the 43V spike?

That is the issue I have right now. My fresh flipper harness taps off the 43V right near the rectifier. The original wire still meanders through the playfield but where it used to be soldered onto each flipper, I pulled it off the flipper and joined them together to let power carry on eventually reaching the coils. So although I separate the wiring physically, they join near the rectifier. There clearly is a radiated component and I have fixed most of it already but the conducted component is still there.

My plan was to put a hefty diode on the new flipper circuit to block the transients. I would lose ~.6V off the 43V but I doubt I would be able to tell the difference (should equate to a 3.5% power loss in the flipper stroke). This can only work after you separate the circuits.

#65 10 years ago

You'd still see the spike on with the diode. I think to do it right; I'd put a 4 amp diode in the 43V circuit... then put 15000uF electro cap on the cathode side (near the turbo bumpers).
The cap should help "smooth" any spikes. Might also help to put a small 0.1uF cap to try and "snub" out any high frequency rings.

#66 10 years ago

I am rethinking the diode idea. Even a large diode would have noticeable voltage drops at high instantaneous currents. Looking at the whole problem again I realized the Bally put nearly every fast coil on that last strobe line. That means the strobe is laying next to the power line everywhere it goes. Pinwiz1985 played with the pull up/down resistors and cured the problem but it jumped to the next address line. So why not fix the strobe. It will be way easier for me the re-run that one wire than it was to make a new flipper harness.

#67 10 years ago

Ideally; I think all the coil power wires should be in their own bundle. Seperated from the switch matrix/gi/etc.

#68 10 years ago

A 4A diode in series with the supply to the flipper coils would be nowhere near enough. The peak current drawn when a flipper coil is first activated can easily exceed 20A.

I suspect the spikes you are measuring will be there regardless as they are the collapsing magnetic field from the coil. The only way of minimising this would be to shield all coils with "Mu metal" or some similar magnetic shielding.

I think this problem is being over examined and without going to extremes the "problem" will always remain. There are tens of thousands of this era machine running perfectly well out there.

#69 10 years ago

Fair bough
But I applaud him for experimenting to solve a problem and would encourage him to move as far as he like

#70 10 years ago

Yes, there has been much concerted and productive effort to determine the cause of this issue. Unfortunately, chokes, diodes, caps added to the existing circuit doesn't fix a bad design to begin with. Bravo on all the tech info BJM. I really enjoyed the information immensely.

2 months later
#71 9 years ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I am rethinking the diode idea. Even a large diode would have noticeable voltage drops at high instantaneous currents. Looking at the whole problem again I realized the Bally put nearly every fast coil on that last strobe line. That means the strobe is laying next to the power line everywhere it goes. Pinwiz1985 played with the pull up/down resistors and cured the problem but it jumped to the next address line. So why not fix the strobe. It will be way easier for me the re-run that one wire than it was to make a new flipper harness.

Bjm, when you had your occilloscope measuring the spike what was the frequency range? Given the clock speed of these old ballys I would highly doubt the spike would be large past the 300mhz range.

the flipper switches, those wires are what conduct/radiate the most emi. if you were to put a sizable ferrite choke at those two wires right at the solenoid driver board connector (where the flipper relay is) and then put a larger ferrite beads on the large entire wiring harness from the playfield to the back box maybe even two of them in series it may be enough decibel suppression of the emi. The object is to convert that RF to heat and minimize the spike. If there is enough suppression in place to where the spike does not hit the threshold to activate the transistor gate of the pop bumpers that will solve the problem of the chattering bumpers.

#72 9 years ago

So, this thread is great, but it's way too in-depth for most people trying to solve or reduce the problem. What kind of summary could you give on the ways to help this problem from simple to in-depth? If this is happening to me once ever 5-25 flips (always only the left flipper!), what simple-ish things should I do to reduce that problem?

Is the first step to clip the cap off the pop bumper switch?

#73 9 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

So, this thread is great, but it's way too in-depth for most people trying to solve or reduce the problem. What kind of summary could you give on the ways to help this problem from simple to in-depth? If this is happening to me once ever 5-25 flips (always only the left flipper!), what simple-ish things should I do to reduce that problem?
Is the first step to clip the cap off the pop bumper switch?

I am curious what machine you have that has this issue? On my Embryon it is much more the right flippers that cause it but the left does too.

Your 5-25 flips is purely dependant on timing. If you had a way of timing your button presses, it would happen almost every time. A big cap on the flipper switch helps. Flipper EOS caps help. Ferrite cores on the switch matrix wires near the MPU card help. On some machines this might be a cure. In your case I doubt based on your symptoms.

The real issue was the poor wiring design, separating the flipper wiring and also the coil wiring from the lamp and switch matrix wires is the bullet proof cure. This of course is a big thing to do. It also depends on the machine, in two cases, Embryons have issues with the same two bumpers where I have heard other machines have the issue with slingshots. On Embryon a large portion of the problem was solved by separating out the flipper wires in the cabinet all the way to the solenoid driver. In my case the caps fixed about 40% of the issue and the cabinet wiring solved the next ~59% of the problem. I stopped at that point. The cabinet rewire which is in photos earlier in the thread took me about 1.5 hours to run. In my Embryon, the left flipper 'never' does it now and the right flipper is once every couple of games now.

#74 9 years ago

My problem is with my Bally Mystic. It's always the left flipper and left pop bumper. The timing of flips makes sense. I am in the situation where the activation of the pop does score (and effect other playfield settings, which is why this is more annoying). I've blocked off the switch to make sure it wasn't just an adjustment problem.

What size caps should I put on the flipper/eos switches?

#76 9 years ago

So if I read this thread correctly the pop bumper firing with the flipper is due to the wire insulation not being good enough. If this is the case then why not simply replace the wires?

#77 9 years ago

Try this; Remove the ball from the roll tilt track. That's it. Period. Nothing else to do.

#78 9 years ago

What if that's already been done?

#79 9 years ago

Now this is a thread!!!!!

#80 9 years ago
Quoted from EEE:

So if I read this thread correctly the pop bumper firing with the flipper is due to the wire insulation not being good enough. If this is the case then why not simply replace the wires?

You might want to reread the thread. The problem is electro-magnetic interference. Strong electrical pulses in the wires and especially in the coils radiate energy that couples into adjacent wiring. It is not an insulation issue. It is how all electrical motors and transformers work they transfer energy via induction. It is happening here but it is not what is supposed to happen, it is due to poor design of the machine. Basic design principles tell you not the have signal lines (switch matrix lines, etc), near high power lines.

-1
#81 9 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Try this; Remove the ball from the roll tilt track. That's it. Period. Nothing else to do.

Now that's the kind of simple solution that I'm looking for! I have my doubts with all the other info in here, but I'd be stupid not to try the suggestion from Mr. Bally.

#82 9 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Now that's the kind of simple solution that I'm looking for! I have my doubts with all the other info in here, but I'd be stupid not to try the suggestion from Mr. Bally.

Mr. Bally is joking, here is an even simpler solution unplug your machine, nothing else to do. All the false firing will stop.

#83 9 years ago

Daw.... Figures.

#84 9 years ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

Mr. Bally is joking, here is an even simpler solution unplug your machine, nothing else to do. All the false firing will stop.

Actually, I'm not joking. Learned it at the Bally Service School in 1979. The ball and the track oxidize which causes quite a bit of electrical noise on the switch matrix.

Witinessed the problem dozens of times on machines that were over three years old on the route I worked for. It really worked for phantom flipper and thumper bumper/sling shot activations.

#85 9 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Actually, I'm not joking. Learned it at the Bally Service School in 1979. The ball and the track oxidize which causes quite a bit of electrical noise on the switch matrix.
Witinessed the problem dozens of times on machines that were over three years old on the route I worked for. It really worked for phantom flipper and thumper bumper activations.

Well, that puts a different spin on it. That makes it sound like Passive Intermodulation where non-linear electrical contacts can create strange results (like partially corroded contacts). The spikes I measured with my scope are due to the coil firings and are not from the tilt ball. However the tilt ball could add its own noise that when added to the coil pulses make things worse. I cannot remember if the ball is even in my machine, I will try it out when I get a chance.

#86 9 years ago

I would like to know if the simple tilt ball removal and disconnection of coin chute(s) is a legitimate approach.

Could you report back?

#87 9 years ago
Quoted from EEE:

I would like to know if the simple tilt ball removal and disconnection of coin chute(s) is a legitimate approach.
Could you report back?

The problem I will have is that I have fixed the problem to a large degree already, my cabinet wiring is modified and I have various caps on EOS and flipper buttons so figuring out if this helps will be hard. It would be much easier for someone with the problem now to pull the ball out.

#88 9 years ago

Actually, it did help! That's the only thing I did, and the frequency of phantom pops was reduced significantly. It definitely still happens but I'd say it was at least a 75% reduction.

I also discovered when removing it, that when the ball touched the upper track, the right pop fired every time. Perhaps that's another problem that I have in my wiring, or it's introducing that interference to the other part of the matrix?

#89 9 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Actually, I'm not joking. Learned it at the Bally Service School in 1979. The ball and the track oxidize which causes quite a bit of electrical noise on the switch matrix.
Witinessed the problem dozens of times on machines that were over three years old on the route I worked for. It really worked for phantom flipper and thumper bumper activations.

This would make sense on why most Early SS bally's i've run into had the tilt ball removed.

#90 9 years ago

Nice to see that the "Factory Training" paid off! Five days while I was still in high school.

IMAG2653.jpgIMAG2653.jpg

#91 9 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Actually, it did help! That's the only thing I did, and the frequency of phantom pops was reduced significantly. It definitely still happens but I'd say it was at least a 75% reduction.
I also discovered when removing it, that when the ball touched the upper track, the right pop fired every time. Perhaps that's another problem that I have in my wiring, or it's introducing that interference to the other part of the matrix?

One other thing which is also Tilt circuit related; remove the plumb bob Tilt wire and top hanger. Using a wire brush on a grinder or drill motor or Dremel tool make the wire hanger at the top loop and the hanger as clean as the day they were new and replace. This assumes that there is no copper braid (solder wick) attached to the Tilt bob wire form and the hanger itself.

#92 9 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

One other thing which is also Tilt circuit related; remove the plumb bob Tilt wire and top hanger. Using a wire brush on a grinder or drill motor or Dremel tool make the wire hanger at the top loop and the hanger as clean as the day they were new and replace. This assumes that there is no copper braid (solder wick) attached to the Tilt bob wire form and the hanger itself.

That will be my next project. Thanks!

#93 9 years ago

I removed the ball from my Embryon and over the course of a bunch of games I saw no difference. I still need to try and measure noise. Also, on my machine the ball and bracket are pretty clean and free of corrosion.

#94 9 years ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I removed the ball from my Embryon and over the course of a bunch of games I saw no difference. I still need to try and measure noise. Also, on my machine the ball and bracket are pretty clean and free of corrosion.

I can confirm this as well, there was no difference in the pop bumper phantom firing. I am ordering a few snap on ferrite cores, type 31: Part# 0431164951 which will go on the individual flipper power wires with about 280ohms resistance at 100mhz, and two of part# 0431177081 375ohms at 100mhz. which will snap over the main wire harness going to the playfield. Each core equals one turn, and since I cannot wrap the harness around the core more than once (its impractical) adding multiple cores is the best solution.

I'll post results and let everyone know.

BJM-MAXX: based on the clock speed of the processor of the MPU 35 board set, and your O-scope has a bandwidth of 10mhz showing where the spike is, Type 31 ferrite will have plenty of suppression in the range needed including the upper harmonics.

#95 9 years ago

so you think the flippers are causing the pops to fire? You going to post pictures of the solution if it works?

#96 9 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

so you think the flippers are causing the pops to fire? You going to post pictures of the solution if it works?

The flippers are definitely the trigger. Read my posts that have scope pictures in them to see what is happening. Then read my posts of rewiring I have done to reduce and nearly eliminate the problem.

#97 9 years ago

the pics didn't pop up before when I posted that. They are there now. BTW, that's the cleanest cabinet for that era of game i've ever seen.

#98 9 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

so you think the flippers are causing the pops to fire? You going to post pictures of the solution if it works?

I completed my retrofit. I'll do a bit better and post a Youtube video. Its on my camera ATM. The results are good, however it still phantom pops occasionally. I added the two large ferrites to the main wire harness bundle. These ferrites buzz unless you put a pad between the half moon pieces. Reason is because there is VDC, VAC, and signal wires in the same bundle. To me that's a bad sign in the design because the interference is "differential noise", not "common mode." Unless you separate the power wires from the signal wires, even this overboard attempt with ferrite beads won't completely fix the problem.

The smaller ferrites I put over the wires going to J4 of the SDB, the J2 connector of the MPU board, over the wires going to the flipper switches off the SDB, and two on the wires close to the actual flipper switches.

I ran a few games, and while the phantom popping happens still, occurrences are reduced to where I can notice a difference and live with it. Short of re-splicing the wire harness of the machine like BJM-MAXX did, I've reached my limit.

#99 9 years ago

I look forward to some photos or video to see where you put them. Earlier on I had some random large ferrites whose specs I don't know and tried them up at J4 and a larger one around the combined bundle heading to the playfield. I really saw no difference but they were not chosen by spec.

Also, keep in mind my rewiring was only of the cabinet portion all the way up to the solenoid driver and a dedicated set of wires to the flippers on the playfield. They made a huge difference and were worth it. The part I stopped short at was running a new strobe wire and a return for the problem bumper. If I ever have the playfield out and upside down I think cutting all the tie-wraps would allow you to separate the wires pretty well without much cutting.

#100 9 years ago

I do plan on having the playfield restored in the near future so I will need to strip the PF down to the wood maybe when I do that I will separate the wires.

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