First off, that sucks. Not the seller, not the buyer, but the situation. It's an inherent risk with these types of games.

If you're looking to get rid of the machine, stop spending money and sell it with known issues. Be honest with the buyer and offer them the courtesy you were not given.

If you'd like to keep the machine, spend the money and make it right.

Any pin you buy that's a few or more years old will probably have some previous repairs done to it at one point or another. Some you may see, some may be hidden. Some may be good and some may be hacks. Depending on the quality and type of repair, they could last forever, or they may come back to haunt you (the new buyer) as soon as you get it home, in a few days, or years later.

Unfortunately, if you play and inspect a machine at someone's house (or at a show) and decide to buy it, I think you're pretty much releasing the seller of all responibility at that point, unless the seller provides some warranty.

Sorry for your ordeal.

Unfortunate, but when I buy a machine I consider the "warranty" to have expired the moment my cash goes into the sellers pocket.

Live, learn and move on. Not much else you can do. Maybe the seller was less than forthright when showing you the machine, but in my opinion it's unreasonable for you to expect any kind of action or compensation from him at this point. You played it, you liked it and you bought it. You assume all the risk from that point forward.

I wouldn't keep dumping money into it if you intend to sell. Good luck.

Yeah, I just bought a pin that the seller said all the issues he knew about, was fairly thorough. Brought the game home and and the DMD went out the next day, board issue.

I have bought from this guy before and 100% don't expect him to fix it. I just take it as one of those risk when buying old electronics, you know?

Totally sorry about your situation, it's really frustrating. I am lucky enough to have an AWESOME tech in this area who is not overly costly and I just bring him over right away.

Isn't there a saying....people don't sell working pinball machines. Stuff happens and half the fun is the tweaking and fixing.

Get your game running and enjoy. Seems to me I've read other threads about cp boxer issues. Do a search on rgp and see if you can find someone who fixed a game with the same problems your having.

It would be great if everybody in the hobby did this, and I know there are many honorable sellers who will help you solve subsequent problems. You just can't expect it, nor can you hold it against the seller if they choose not to. It's a cash and carry and assume the risk hobby. Unless you want to pay a major premium and buy from a retailer.

I think at least 50% of the machines I've bought worked fine at the sellers house, and then didn't when I got them home. Things bounce around, etc.

Anyway, not trying to be a bigger downer on your already bad situation. I think it sucks too, and I can understand your anger/frustration.

I think the point here is that what if the seller told you all he knew? What's to say for the seller that you dropped it unloading it? (not that you did) Just saying too many unknowns. It does suck if that seller has a bad rep then perhaps he does cover some items, but in the end play the shit outta the game and test everything you can...and of course hope for the best!

Man that stinks, and hate you have to deal with this. In most cases the seller doesnt warranty a pinball, when I buy, I am gone never to call again. Believe me I have had my share of issues. I figure its on my if I didnt catch the friend connector, or blown fuse, or battery acid. The seller should be upfront with everything they know, but some just let you look it over and dont say a word. However, as you said you didnt take apart the boxer prior to buying. Maybe he didnt either? Who knows, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. If the seller knew he should have been upfront, but then again its up to you to inspect this 20 year old machine, and take it as is for the agreed price, or walk away.

Chalk it up to a learning experience, we have all had those. I would recommend selling it as it, let a pinhead that likes to fix his own mess around with it. BUT DO NOT LET IT AFFECT YOUR LOVE FOR PINBALL!

You are not allowed to quit!

No, if you specifically asked and he did not disclose - that's what I would consider a bad seller, a shady seller, and someone I would never do business with again. That's about the extent of your recourse.

If you are buying a machine out of somebody's basement, of course that is a crap shoot and I would never ever contact them again, no matter how many problems the machine has. But if you are buying from someone who is apparently semi-well known in the area (he must deal in quite a few games if the tech was familiar with his "repairs"), then it is possible to check out reputations beforehand.

But, by your own admission, you did buy a working machine, and it also worked when you got it home.

I'm sorry, it sounds like I'm lecturing and I'm really not trying to. I think the great/snake ratio in this hobby is about the same as every other thing in life, which means we generally have good transactions. Sorry you ran into the snake.

The seller isn't responsible for anything unless he offered a warranty. Seems like you can look at a pinball machine wrong and something will go wrong, kind of the nature of the beast. The bigger issue here is that you spent ($800?!?- Am I reading that right) on a tech/troubleshooting?

Along with many others i have had my share of issues on games i bought. My biggest recommendation is to learn how to troubleshoot and repair as much as you can on your own. I have had many times where i would spend 2 hours troubleshooting to find a 2 dollar problem. If i had to pay a tech that gets expensive. These forums are great for asking and getting directions on repairs. Good luck

Yeah, what exactly did he "fix" for that much money?

So what parts did you need besides the rottendog? The rottendog is roughly $175.00 and coils are going to set you back about 25.00....

So you are into labor for $600?

I wondered that too. 2 cpu's, rebuilt driver board? I dunno, but all seems a bit excessive. Should have been fairly easy to quickly isolate the issue to either the playfield or the boards.

I don't know enough about the workings of a pinball machine, so I have bought all my machines from someone I trust . If the machines are not his, I will usually pay for him to shop it out, and he had looked at the machine before I buy it. I also have never seen anything he can not fix. Worth the little bit extra I pay. With a small knowledge base you possibly should be going this route also.

From what I am reading, it sort of is. You have a tech that is badmouthing a seller, swapping out multiple boards, and you are into for $800.00 at this point. Not exactly what I would call profesional (no offense, only going by what I am reading here).

He may have known exactly what he was selling you. He may have thought he fixed it and was selling you a god game. You might be having a completely different problem with the same part. No way to know. Moving machines with this kind of age is always a risk. Its not uncommon for a move to cause problems in a pin. Or anything electrical/mechanical. In the pinball hobby you have three choices. Buy new, learn to fix them or pay a tech. If your not willing to chose one of these options this hobby is not for you. You will never buy a pin and play it for years to come with no problems. At the very least you will have maintenance. I would never go back to a seller after I get a pin home. If you were given the opportunity to play and thoroughly inspect the pin before buying it, its yours now. If your not experienced enough to find these problems or fix them when they happen then you shouldn't be buying old pins alone. What would you do if your pin tech didn't tell you he had already worked on the pin and that he screwed it up? I ask because you could easily be in the same boat with any pin you buy. It happens with pins. If thats not a risk your willing to take then you shouldn't be buying pins alone. This could have easily happened with no one to blame it on. My point is, you are where you are. We have all made mistakes. We have all gotten pins home and kicked ourselves for missing something or gotten home and said "what did I get my self into".Learn from this, don't agonize over it. Take a tech with you. Take a pinsider with you. Learn, learn ,learn. This hobby is so much more fun(IMO) if you learn how to do your own work.

I have only purchased one machine, my STTNG, that did not have hidden issues from the start. All the others had problems, even the ones I checked myself onsite. You can only go over so much while there. I've been burned pretty good a couple of times buying site unseen and that's always a big gamble.

As someone else mentioned, you have to chalk it up as a learning experience and make the best of your game. If its a long term keeper for you, spend the cash to fix it up nice, otherwise dump it for what you can get out of it and figure your that much wiser now. Its just the nature of this type of hobby and most of us have stories to tell.

Not trying to sound like a dick here, but, if the machine played fine at his house..then that is where his responsibility ends....

You played it..fully functioning, and you bought it... it is what it is..

It has happend to me as well.....

its a mchine and they break.... unfortunatly it broke on you....

CP is known for boxer issues anyway... it is an inherant problem..

Just as BSD mist ball is a well known weak spot...

Somtimes you eat the bear, and somtimes the bear eats you.... thats life in pinball...

Seen it before, not that that is how i would repair it, but yep on more than one occasion...

If that is where you knew your problem lied, then you shoulda attacked that area and de-cobbled it..

went through and made sure it was repaird the right way and then trouble shot from there...

and yes i know it sucks that you have spent so much time and money with your TECH...but it may be time to find a new TECH... that can do the job right and cost effectively...

ie. knows what he is doing..

If i had a car at a repair shop, and they threw 50 parts at it trying to figure it out, but it still didnt fix it... and they charged me for it... i would find a new repair shop..

There is a very good chance the seller was shady, I am not trying to take away from that. The consensus is that you aren't going to recover any kind of funds for that. But you can control your costs moving forward, and based on what you have described so far in the troubleshooting, your costs seem a bit excessive (IMO) for troubleshooting/repair.

Someone that does machine repair for a living should have been able to not blow through 2 CPU boards during the process.

+1000 the guys isnt a TECH... he is a parts changer...

Like i said, not saying you dropped it, that was simply an example the seller can't be responsible if no warranties are offered due to buyer fault once it has left. It sucks ,but cold truth.

Gotta check for those types of things, but im sure in a CP that's probably hard to check under the boxer

Rubbed through wires on the boxer is the #1 common problem with CP...

It is the absolute first thing you should check when you get the machine even if it is working properly when you get it or not..

You said it much more elegantly than me

To the OP....We truly aren't trying to bad mouth your tech, but are telling you based on what you have described here, you may be paying sticker price on a new car. May not hurt to shop around a little

+1 I (and I'm assuming most here) have bought into machines that were more project than anticipated - and have had to make tough decisions as to a course of action.

I've learned to research typical issues on a machine I'm going to look at, and focus my attention on those areas. In the case of cp, the boxer is a known trouble spot - albeit not one easy to check out. However, armed with this info, I would have queried further the whats and whys once he mentioned working in this area of the game. What did he change or fix and how was it fixed; what was wrong with it; how long has the fix been in place and has there been any follow on problems?

But to the point of your original post, I tend to be rather up-front about details when I'm selling something, but know that other sellers aren't necessarily as forthcoming. As such, if there was (or appeared to be) work done, and the seller was vague about the details, I would definitely investigate further. However, even with being better prepared, it is nonetheless a judgement call - one you will get better at with experience at buying pins. I've turned away from machines that turned out be to OK, just because the seller was vague or claimed ignorance. And I've bought machines that had more issues than originally believed. Ultimately, the seller has a vested interest in not telling you details that might demand a lower price. But there seems to be a spread as to those who will downright lie, and those who might not disclose details unless really pressed. It sounds like this seller might be more in the latter camp. In any case, unless the seller offered a warranty that was not honored, its more about crying over spilled milk.

In the end, its a point of experience anytime you run into something like this. You now know another seller not to deal with, you now know more about cp machines and issues they might have, and you will likely be better prepared the next purchase.

I've met a couple pinsiders who are not interested in digging into the machine. They are players and have no interest in anything under the pf. If you fall more into this camp, might find a good shop fairly local to buy machines. You might pay more toward retail prices (they will still negotiate) but you also likely be able to get most any machine you're interested in as they will have better sourcing, and you'll likely have the availability of a warranty and on-site service. For the true player types, paying more to avoid having to tinker is usually a nice trade-off. That being said, I'm not sure I would continue using the tech you have been. He does seem more into easter-egging parts (and charging you for them) rather than real diagnostic and repair.

I'm pretty sure there are multiple things to be learned in this situation.

No, the seller isn't liable for any of this, unless you were sold it with a warranty. A used piece of commercial coin operated equipment sometimes breaks and need service.

Owning pinball machines is *expensive* if you can't repair and troubleshoot them yourself. That's an unfortunate fact of life. I don't know the whole story, but what I'm seeing sure looks like there was a bunch of part swapping going on that was unnecessary, and it doesn't look like much effort was made to fix the short, other than swapping out boards and hoping it was on the boards. A couple minutes with a meter should be able to tell you if a switch matrix line is still shorted to solenoid voltage!

Just so you don't feel so bad...

Early in my pinball 'career', I bought a Fish Tales from a seller in California, and had it shipped to Indiana.

It had a couple problems, and I sent the boards out to be fixed.

The boards returned, I replaced them, and played the game for awhile. Problems were solved. I was happy. After awhile, I decided to sell the FT and move on to a different game.

So, I put the game on eBay, and sold it for $1250 - which was my 'break even' point on it, after paying for the board rework, but a bit of a loss if I calculated the shipping into it.

A guy from IL bought it. Paid for it with a credit card through PayPal. Came and picked it up, about a 5 hour drive I'd guess. Played it in my garage for an hour, loved it, loaded it, left.

A few days later, he called me up, angry. Turns out, the game started having some problems. I'd stated it was as-is, no warranty, but when he explained what it was doing, it seemed like the problems were similar to the ones it had when I sent the CPU, driver and DMD controller out to be repaired. So, I felt like I had a little liability in the situation, not legally, but ethically and morally.

So, I looked around, trying to find a nearby tech, and had zero luck.

The nearest tech I could find was in Chicago, about a 3 hour round trip. I talked to him, he was good, so I paid him to go have a look. I paid him $250.

The tech called me, and said that there was a problem on the game he couldn't find, but if he swapped in his spare boardset he carried in his truck, the problem went away. Of course, the tech didn't want to leave his spare boardset on a $250 service call, so I did what I thought was best.

I called the customer, offered to send the tech back out again on my dime with a set of boards I would pull out of my Getaway. The customer said to just send him the boards, save myself the service call, and he'd install them, and return the boards out of the FT to me, so I could send them back to the guy who repaired them for me.

So, I sent him my Getaway boards. According to the buyer, they didn't fix the problem. He never returned either set of boards to me.

It cost me about $800 to replace the Getaway boards.

So, I sold the game for $1250
Paid the tech $250 of it
And sent the guy an $800 board set.

I got 200 bucks for my game after replacing the boards in my Getaway and paying the tech. That number is probably closer to $100 after considering eBay and PayPal fees.

I offered to refund the guy completely and come get the game, so long as it came back with both board sets. He declined.

For a couple years, I got periodic e-mails from the guy, telling me he'd found a new repair shop or tech, and they kept telling him the game was garbage, couldn't believe the POS seller, stuff like that.

And, after all that, the guy wanted to buy another game from me a year later.

I told him 'Sorry, I can't afford to sell you any more games'

Today, I fix 99.9% of everything on my games. Boards and all. If I can't do it, there are a select few repair guys I'd send a board to.

That was probably the worst pinball experience I ever had. I'm glad I didn't let it ruin pinball for me!

Sorry to hear about your problems. I've seen all sorts of hacks on machines. Being money earning machines, techs would do almost anything to keep them working and making money. So it's not surprising to find sloppy fixes.

Not to totally jack the thread... but I wonder if that isn't part of the rise in the prices of the used machines. I wonder how many new buyers jump in and buy something without really thinking through the fact a lot of these machines are 20+ years old, sat in a commercial environment for most of its life, and then was purchased by someone who was possibly learning to fix it on the fly.

I know I took a leap of faith when I bought my FT but I realized it would take some learning and I'd discover issues along the way... but that is why I waited for a deal.

My most recent purchase had a hack where someone used a speaker wire to make a bridge. I have gotten to the point where I assume it isn't the sellers fault with the hacks and I have yet to buy a machine that didn't need something major (board work, connectors, ramps, missing wires, etc...)

I will admit that I have covered soldered wire splices with electrical tape, this is the function of the tape and why it is called electrical tape.

The only reason I know how to troubleshoot problems is due to all the problems machines have when I bring them home. I find that I spend more time fixing machines than I do playing them, and I know it is time for a new machine when they are all playing properly.

Thanks for sharing this story. I guess it proves that every story has two sides and not everything is cut and dry. This is why listing names of what some folks may consider 'shady sellers' or 'scammers' is bad form. There's always another side.

I know this was somewhat true in my case - and I'm typically one who does good research. It was more that I didn't know what I didn't know. I think most people (including myself) get into the hobby for (rightfully so) more emotional reasons. It takes a couple experiences like this - as well as perhaps the maintenance aspects - to really see the practical aspects of hobby. I can see where it could disillusion new hobbyists once they see this part of it.