Correct.
I was only partially responding to what you wrote regarding the perceived dollar value of Chris' work and the rest was referring to others in this hobby as a whole and nobody in specific.

Woke up....

Saw this thread exploded overnight....

Expected It to be more pics of ctozzi's wife....

Exactly what I was thinking.............

Oi!

Agreed. Thanks to those who dragged this thread right into the effin toilet. Big mouths with facts all screwed up, confessions of financial duress, pizza and beer social class definitions, endless proclamations, counter arguments, blah blah effin blah. Get a room.

Thanks to the OP for starting the thread. Profound appreciation to HEP from average guy sending his playfield for non-investment purposes for A+ treatment because he just loves the game, and who really thinks he should just send the whole game even though I'll have far more into it than it will ever be worth. Ok, enough of typing in the third person.

Have a good day all.

Brian

Wow. I guess Ice was hitting the bottle pretty hard again last night? He sounded like a complete tool there at the end, like he had forgotten what he said earlier. Self contradiction is a good indicator it is time to stop posting/arguing lol. The whole idea of getting a high end restore done on a title to flip it??? Give me a break, he must not know what they cost. When I get my STTNG back, I will LOVE it, it will be perfect. But if I were to turn around and try to sell it for what I have in it ~10k, not a chance. Even MB would be a stretch at ~12k. Nope. Can't have HE restore done for the flip. As a guy who likes HE restores, I can say the reason has been well stated by many in this thread, including Chris. I want the nicest example possible of the machines I have so I can enjoy playing them with as few issues as possible for the years ahead. Yes there will still be minor issues, but I want as close to perfect so I can just play them. None of the pins here stand a chance of just getting looked at, too many kids.

I see. To clarify as the valuation discussion took over, I said the high end restorers deserve to be paid top dollar. I thought that was clear.

It was clear. Sorry; maybe I was not.
I was actually agreeing with you on two points. The fact that the work HEP does is valuable and your hope that guys like Chris hang around this hobby for a long time.

I was just adding to that by saying that Chris probably makes less than we all perceive when all is said and done, and that, if we do hope for these guys to hang around, some of the attitudes put forth here by others need to relax.

If I was Chris I would be pretty put off by how threads like this just morph into something completely pointless. But I'm sure he's had to grow a thick skin over the years.

Ice, why do you keep digging your hole deeper and deeper?

You keep saying this as though it is a fact, and is so "obvious", yet virtually everyone disagrees with this assertion. Including me.

Anyone who sends a pin to Chris at HEP does so with the knowledge that they will not be recovering their entire investment. Obviously the pin that has received the HEP treatment will be worth a lot more than it's non HEP counterpart....but you don't send a pin to Chris in order to make a profit. To do so would be "totally NAIVE!"

Icemans statement :

When they come up for sale they go so fast at such high prices because of the huge demand and thus huge profits!.....

This statement in itself 100% confirms, that you sir are a MORON!

and that you have no grasp or concept of reality .

Just to recap..

BTW my Recap, was directed to our beloved expert on all thing restoration...ICEMANN

How does one go about getting a thread closed? Cause I nominate this one for being a complete waste of my time. If title had been changed to ... Why might people send their pin to HEP ... I would have avoided this one and not lost twenty minutes of my life, that now I will never get back.

You always have the choice NOT to read...

In which case.. What are you doing on a forum of people writing text?

The problem once AGAIN. Is the same people talking trash and making these threads messy. I really hope Robin starts cracking down as he did yesterday and booting some of these REPEAT offenders that just like to argue. Go play pinball and comment when you have something to offer not just to bash. Unbelievable.

After wading fairly deep into the thread, figured I was fully invested, so just kept reading. I compare it to watching a tv report on a tragedy. You want to turn away but sometimes are just too fascinated. I was secretly rooting for it would get back on topic. Guess that makes me the eternal optimist.

I got sucken into the vortex of being fully vested as well...that i do understand..

A couple posts from these same individuals turns EVERY thread they are in into a vortex of crap.

First of all, Coasterguy..although this thread seemingly got derailed here a bit, (well alot)...

who are you pointing fingers at now?

What problem here, if there even is a problem, even involves you? (Oh, thats right..NOTHING)

my input to this, as stern as it was at moments was acurrate and informative..and geared to the people that may have bought into Icemanns ignorant viewpoints reguarding the real reasons behind restorations for most all of the pin community.. and that HEP's Resto's, as stated by Chris himself, are NOT geared at all twords the FLIPPER mentality..

and an insight to the world of reality..

I dont like to argue, but i also will agrue a point of importance to the end...

sorry the discussions here in this topic you dont like, or maybe you just dont like anyone of us, or whatever your hangup is....

Coasterguy says...
"I really hope Robin starts cracking down as he did yesterday and booting some of these REPEAT offenders that just like to argue"

Grow a pair !

Your like the class tattle tale....yet again...your acting like (I) or anyone of us talking to each other in theis thread, pissed on YOUR living room carpet, in front of your wife and kids, ( if you even have any)...

Your classic answer to everything i am starting to realize is ...CLOSE THIS THREAD !...retire this member... ( I am Coasterguy, these people are messing with my rose colored pin world)...booo hooo !

Robin, PLEASE boot all these people....because they have an opinion, or just stand up for what they think is right, and themselves....

Coaster.

Please get over yourself ! People like you make me sick....

+1

Perfect example of a train-wreck that started out with such potential.

Hahaha, sorry ctozzi. Trying to lighten the mood in here.

- Love HEP
- Hate this thread (Die Already)

Gerry your funny!
What have you done for pinside? Thought not.

WTH, dude? It's one thing to disagree with the guy, buy why all the hostility?

Read my posts here...then tell me...apparently again your talking out of your A$$

I,m tired of him to the enth degree...

close this...boot that....

Absocountry and i had this conversation not long ago...and we felt we were on the same page...

Tattle tales and Cry babies make this site at times unbearable, to speak in....sometimes..

guys like him, make me wanna puke...

If coaster dosent like people haveing a difference of opinion, he should start his own pinball forum, where that kinda thing is not allowed, ( where everyone MUST agree), and then he can boot anyone he likes and close threads at will...

otherwise, if the threads here arent his cup of tea, he should JUST MOVE ON...intead of begging Robin for eliminations and closings...

I have Zero tollerance for people of his kind....

That's not exactly what I said. I suggested the majority of the games he takes in are not major restorations. If the pictures he's posted on his web site over the last half-a-decade are any indication, that's a correct assessment (I've followed HEP's work for many years and have always been impressed). I also acknowledged that he has taken major restoration projects, but again, it's safe to assume he's mainly working on high end games for people who want to make their game worth as much as possible - if you just want the game "playable" you don't need HEP's level of treatment. Everybody that knows about HEP knows that's the deal. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Furthermore, HEP charges a significant amount of money to do those restorations. Not the kind of money a typical enthusiast is going to pay. Why don't you all talk about how much those services really cost? $4,000+ is probably not uncommon for him to work on a machine, and what percentage of pinball enthusiasts is going to spend 2x+ fair market value of a machine to have HEP restore it? It's a very small group of collectors when compared to the larger community. And as to whether or not an HEP game is not worth more, ask anyone who has one.. and people that have tried to resell HEP games will certainly talk up the increased value.

Everybody knows it. It's not a disparaging thing to say. His company is called, "High End Pins" - he's should just "own it" and say, "Yes, I do upper-echelon-quality work for upper echelon-level collectors" because basically, that is what he does. HEP is a commercial business and I presume he makes quite a good living at what he does. Nothing wrong with that.

I was not suggesting this hobby can simply be divided into two groups, i.e. "rich people with trophy machines and everybody else." However, it's like any hobby.. you have some people who collect things as trophies and others who make them playable and don't care if they're "perfect" or there's a scratch on the bottom of the cabinet. That's just the way it is.

I'd compare HEP to that show "American Restoration" - that guy takes all kinds of old things and makes them like new. He also charges three arms and two legs to do it. And a guy that comes in and pays six grand to turn a pedal car from his childhood back to shiny condition is not an average Joe. As I said before, I have nothing but high praise for HEP and their work. But don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that every Tom, Dick and Harry with a Popeye or Barbed Wire is running to Chris to have him restore their games. It ain't happening. Don't hate on me for saying the obvious.

What really weirds me out is this notion that if I say anything about this guy, or certain other "pinball luminaries" that their fans might take offense to (for who knows what reason) that this somehow means I'm destroying the hobby? It makes no sense.

And BTW..you have 3 pins in your collection, and thats cool...i hope you enjoy them..

I have 17 now 24 at one point, at one time....have had over 60 come and go..

done all the resto work on all of them, but my latest one, cause i didnt have the time..

PF touchup-Clearcoating and all....

I do high end muscle car retorations...so i feel i have a horse in the debate above for numerous reasons...

and I will voice my opinion, even if you dont like it coaster,

and another thing, even though i don NOT agree with ICEmann ( and he is wrong) .i will defend him as well, as he has a right to his viewpoint...

As far as me adding positive things to this forum, i do it regularly...

I have FORGOTTEN more about pinball than you know....that i am positive of... !

Coaster, Maybe it would be better for you to join a Hippie forum, where you and everyone else could sit in a circle, pass a mason jar full of organic grape juice around to share, wear hemp clothing, hold hand sing coombi ya, and just agree about everything..

What you are seeing from CG is frustration due to the changing Pinside climate. You have only been around for a couple months, so it's understandable that you would be oblivious to this. There is an ugliness to many of the threads that never used to exist here. CG may be more vocal than some about these changes, but he is hardly alone in these feelings. Many veteran members have emailed me in the last couple months wondering what the hell has happened to Pinside. I try to explain to them that it is simply the result of a much larger membership base, and thus more conflicting personalities. The fact remains, however, that Pinside is very different than it used to be. Ironically, your unwarranted attack on CG just further proves my point.

I already in a previous pot in this thread, metioned to Ctozzi, that this was a very cool thread he started, and was sorry it got derailed...

And mind you, it was derailed LONG before i got involved...

I am not gonna let, unedgucated, people bash Chris from HEP, without voicing out...

that isnt gonna happen....

Have you figured out your part? Here's how it typically goes:

1. Someone starts a thread on a topic

Usually it's a thinly-veiled advertisement for someone:

* "Who else can't wait for JPop's next announcement that we can't publicly talk about, but his game is going to be the greatest!"
* "AC/DC: awesomer or awesomest!"
* "My recent visit to HEP - Thanks!!!!!!!"
* "WOZ causes value of white bread to plummet!"

2. Love-fest ensues

3. Someone dares to interrupt the love-fest with a tidbit of reality, an alternate opinion, or something the thread-lovers object to

4. Cyber-bullying commences with personal attacks ("How dare you criticize a tenured pinball luminary? Why do you hate this hobby? This guy has done more than you therefore you have no right to have an opinion and must delete your account and leave!")

5. Second wave of cyber bullies show up and declare the thread corrupt and appeal for moderation and shutdown.

6. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said anything even remotly "ban hammer" worthy . . . this is why the mods have not even closed this thread yet; no rules have been broken other (maybe a few have been bent a little).

This is what weirded me as well and is the basis of what got Iceman worked up too. I was serious when I said people, feeling they were leaping to HEP's defense (when he didn't need it anyway), were going to manifest a phantom of critisism for HEP (who they felt like they were defending with their eyerolls and statements of captain obvious) . . . and they did.

Manifesting phantoms should be resisted. Defending people when they themselves are being defensive (and no one can argue that HEP didn't at least appear to take Pinballhelps comments defensively, for whatever reason) and don't really need any help anyway is what manifests the phantom of negativety. Pinballhelp never said anything that wasn't complimentary to HEP and HEP frankly should have just let the comment roll on by . . . but he didn't and then others felt the need to help him out; then the thread deteriorated.

coasterguy said:

I really hope Robin starts cracking down as he did yesterday and booting some of these REPEAT offenders that just like to argue.

THATS HIS ANSWER TO ALL THINGS (HE) DOSENT LIKE...

Thank god he's not a moderator, or there would be like 3 people on this site..

He's a run to MOMMY type CRY BABY.....

NO forum ( moderated or not) needs those kinda guys

Wow, this guy needs to lay off cg. The name calling has no place here. Please stop with the name calling.

Gerry better check your local listings for dr. Phil
You need some serious self help! I assure you I have never asked for a member to be booted.
I just have grown a bit tiresome of the drama on here over nothing. It has become a big issue on here the past several months. Don't get why your so angry but thats between you and the reflection in your mirror. Have a good day. Sorry to add to it guys. Ill leave this one alone.

So....to sum it up, I believe this is how I started my comments off and stated how great his work was and how successful he is at it....that's fantastic!

And then jumped into the HEP and Pinballhelp skirmish when people started attacking Pinballhelp..........so, I don't believe I started a damn thing...

But hey, go ahead and get all worked up about it, I'm just a dummy know nothing tool! Chillll out people....

I just re-read some of the above and I get what you guys think is perfectly fine. I do. I just think pinside was a better all around environment without all of these pissing matches. No harm intended.

Thank you for manning up on that...

that definatley changes some of my notions regaurding you here...

I do not THRIVE on pissing matches at all, but sometime they happen, and are warrented...

I prefer the easy flow for sure....

but sometimes you have to stand for what you believe...

and another thanks again..

Ice, we will just have to agree to disagree..thats fine with me....

this thread is exhausting me

Play more pinball

I think this thread has brought us all closer together and not further apart. It is group hug time guys!

Pretty much right on......wash, rinse and repeat.....and if we weren't all crazy we might go insane

Its ok man, not really trying to tool or rile anybody up (at least initially!)....it's all good, have a little healthy dialogue, even name calling, I don't take it personally....and then like Tiger says...HUG IT OUT! Sorry fellas, as lawyers, its what we do, wear the other side out, just having some fun tooling around....doesn't mean I'm a "tool" or anybody else on here is

Lawyers SUCK!!!

I know, right! Total A**holes Don't know when to shut up....

Sometimes I wish Jerry Springer was a member of Pinside.

Yes, i want to make my games worth as much as possible and sell them for as much of a loss as possible. Sometimes I wonder how we all got rich.

Wow! What a great read! I came in late and just read through the whole thing. This thread had it all. I love the way it ended, that was a very unexpected twist. Love you guys. (In a healthy brotherly way)

Are you kidding?
That's one of my favorite games! (And no, I'm not joking)