You are lying again…….

The calculator says 98 days (not counting today). Counting today, 99.

How can we not assume reds are being made or have been made? Obviously they have, there is one on tour and one in someone's house. If a bunch of reds start showing up, well, what can we do about it except never preorder again?

I was disgusted by the orders not being in order like we were told, same about friends having theirs for a year already, same about ECLEs dropping in price, same about some people having gotten theirs played and said 'meh' already. The Aussie robbery made me sick to my stomach. But...I still can't wait. I can't do a refund now. I feel a LOT more secure seeing the guys get their refund checks right away and with no problems. That is probably the main reason I stayed in. I do feel like a heel, a rube, whatever, for having waited this long when others(markmon) figured out a much faster way and just jumped on it.

Play your other pins in the meantime Rommy, I don't feel as bad for you Then when you get Woz it will all be a distant memory! You can't "assume" anything at this point, relax, play that BBB and get ready to see what blows it away…..

I don't have skin in this game, and I don't know why I just spent 20 minutes reading this, but...

Seems to me that the one thing that Jack could control according to some people is the order the games were produced in - however, I think the oversight was in that when he ran his own sales company, it was easy to go, "Number 1, Number 2, Number 3..." When suddenly you have 50 people selling machines, all giving you different dates, it makes it hard to know who should be in what position. What is to stop a distributor who knows they have the spots reserved from holding your money for 6 months and letting it earn interest before sending it in?

I have no idea how it could have been done better, but to me it does seem that the real problem comes straight from this issue.

Yes, it was 98 days yesterday as I stated. I am not sure what your point is when I already stated that.
Do you want to start a countdown...errr, I mean count-up thread for this?

Ok I will start for you:

99 days today since the "ish" statement

Actually....you are the one who is lying. Because you are calling him a liar when you have zero knowledge about the actual facts. The ultimate in irony.

If Ice has no proof, then an apology from him to MRDO is in order here.

well iam waiting on a WOZECLE . I have not waited as lone as most. I bought a spot. in which I didn't check invoice #. I called JJP and was told at the time nov,dec 2013. since been told Jan, Feb, quit asking after that. but i did find out invoice #. and mine will be about one of the last ones off the line my guess. Nothing I can do about it. but one thing I can say is there are more than 2 ruby red woz unless there reboxing them at the factory. I was at the W-S auction and seen BR unbox a ruby red and set it up for Buddy. not saying nothing against Buddy great guy to deal with and hes just doing his job as a dist. . and yes it was a proto type. but I can say I will not preorder anything again.

Here is actual pictures from the weekend where I had the Ruby Red at the Winston Salem auction so people can see, touch and play the pin. The red looks so good in person and contrast nice with the playfield, look at the ramps for example.

Some here really give Jack way to much crap, if you do not show the Ruby Red, how can you expect orders. I need orders to keep my business going so I can continue to contribute to society and earn a living. I am sure the govt would miss my tax dollars if I went out of business. I only have one ECLEWOZ left to deliver, I can not sell anymore as I do not have any to sell and only 2 Hobbit LE's left. I need to show and sell Ruby Red's until Pat's pin is ready.

Buddy
Mountain Entertainment Inc.

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I usually have customers just make the checks out to JJP. I have done it with many of mine, no issue all the money ends up in Jersey in the end.

It was used at a show. You can ask around as some people at the auction complained about how dirty it was and look at how bad those rubbers look were common comments. It was packed up for protection on the ride down from Jersey. It originally was going to be shipped to Louisville Expo but I wanted to save shipping since I was going back to JJP soon

Thanks for the nice words Biglaw, I wish I could have picked yours up, maybe next trip up.

I wish you had purchased from me but again I had no more ECLEWOZ to sell, thus the reason for the Ruby Red and standards being there. I can only sell what I have, I even sold out of Mustangs at present.

I did preorder a WOZ

Years ago. Back when they were just "a few months from shipping".

There's nothing wrong with pissing in the wind if you point your pecker in the right direction BTW

My point was to support you and refute the 115 days comment--since so many people decided to ignore your comment and quote Joe's 115 figure.

Ordered my ECWOZLE on August 1st 2011.
Made all my payments as requested right on schedule so I was PAID IN FULL 1/25/2012.
Still waiting..and waiting...for my game.

I was also told that I was in the final 200 to be made and my last "update" was to be shipping Mid May.
I was told this in mid-March.

I really would think I might be in the first hundred of the two hundred final ECWOZLE's because quite a few were sold after Aug 1st 2011 and I would guess at least 100-150 have bailed on their pre-orders? Anyway to know for sure?

I also think the LED light board issue has held up production somewhat in that 90 day we'll be done with all the remaining ECWOZLE's estimate. It happens. I get that.

I still have faith in JJP to deliver or I would have bailed a long time ago..

Jack has treated me fairly in the past..bought my first NIB Family Guy pin at a good price and he replaced a damaged widebody sheet of JJP InvisiGlass when they first came out. I believe he'll still do me right with my WOZ.

Hanging in there still...it's tough..it's been really, really tough!

so how long will it take em to do the remaining 200.

I am at the back end of the list (I think several from the last). All along I could have received a refund.

I would wager $100 that I receive my machine (along with everyone else that is waiting for an LE) by the end of the year. To make a statement that people won't receive their machines by 2015 is spreading more rumors. It is clear JJP had two major production issues (boards and cabinets). This group would be grilling JJP if they continued to ship the machines with bad boards. Instead they waited to try to get it right.

Bottom line is everyone of these people that are waiting can get out. They are not being held hostage.

Please stop the negative posts when JJP is doing the best they can.

As for the Ruby Red. They made a couple prototypes to sell another version of their machine. They are not being built yet. Why all the fuss on a prototype?

How do you know jjp is doing the best they can? Do you have inside knowledge? Please share! How do you know they are not building reds yet? Please share that as well. I am waiting on my ECLE ordered in 2/2012 so am interested in the red production information. THANK YOU so much for sharing.

There was no statement, he said "if". Now you saying he made a statement like that IS spreading rumors.

I'm calling him a liar because he hasn't provided any evidence or supporting facts. See how that works? Get it? You don't get to come on here and blow BS and say "I know something from a source but I can't really say". I know your thumbs up non Wozer rubbernecker posse doesn't but you do. Excellent insightful and witty post

And "actually", who cares, except the "dirty dozen", same crew, posting the same stuff over and over, get a criminal indictment ready! And if you aren't in line waiting for one, your opinions means ZERO to me or anybody else with a Woz, that's not irony, that's reality.

Btw, there is a lynch mob forming over in the SkitB thread, grab your pitchforks.

Since you thumbers have so much interest in this pin maybe you should pay more attention to how great Keith has made it and you'd actually have one instead of something like a STLE.

Shhhhhhhh, hear that? That gorgeous Woz pin firing up in the background, have a great day!

Because that's all they have left to hang on to. Pretty sad and pathetic, isn't it? Don't worry, you have a Woz coming and you will be thrilled with it. A great pin!

Go figure Buddy, if you can't show it how can you expect some orders? Don't expect any common sense here.

Disagree. More importantly in this case with the delays its a bigger insult to purchasers to build even one before finishing their LEs. How many new sales of those versus the potential loss of trust from existing purchasers. This is a short term non customer focused business plan. Gets money today but risks tomorrows cash flow.

I respectfully disagree with you on that one Hwaw, and I think most Woz people and those waiting wouldn't give a crap either as evidenced by some of the posts above of people actually waiting for one. A few red ruby prototypes is a whole lot different than mass production for sale imo.

Like it not, and some don't, a company has to cater to both the individual customer and the distributor. It sucks that Automated is sitting on many Woz Le's for sale, but they bought them and are entitled to have inventory for sale, much like the Met LE fiasco and distributors getting to sit on those and then having it backfire.

If you can show me where anybody bows down to the individual consumer I'd like to see it.

I guess we agree to disagree. I don't believe this is about the individual customer. Its about 25% or more of the companies initial product order still not in the buyers hands. 2 new LEs announced after wards. Huge productions of Standards made pushing them back even more.
Where do agree is that I can't think of a single company that used an investor purchase model to start up and got away with as many stories as we have seen.
I worked for Nordstrom for 10 years so please understand my problem with JJP and why I won't give them my money is because of the business practices I have witnessed. I probably have exceedingly high standards but I also know plain old BS when I see it.

You are using selective hearing skills. I hear those folks but I have talked to many that feel as I do based on these actions.

A picture is worth a thousand words and you have more than a few pictures here. Thanks for posting this.

I agree, WOZ is pretty spectacular. Do yourself a favor and find a WOZ in a arcade or at a friend's and play it to get an idear how great a pin it truly is in every category, while yours is being worked on. It'd be more than a little naïve to expect JJP to drop the ball on WOZECLE's at this point now, wouldn't it?

I don't like some of the "actions" either, and have said so, the pinball machine itself has nothing much to do with Jack, but you guys, and its anybody's right, want to make it about an all or nothing. If some is bad, its all bad.

You haven't bought a Woz and say you won't buy pins from JJP, that is your right, opinion and also your loss imo. Your expectations are too high, this isn't a publicly traded company like Nordstrom's, how do you feel about management and executive compensation taking away from the individual shareholder unjustly. How about those practices? Who do you think funded and continues to fund Nordstrom's! Individual shareholders and institutions.

Take a look around with pinball and tell me what you see. Some people have selective memories around here. I'll choose to focus on the positive and what's good for pinball on balance and having another pin maker that is producing great pins is a good thing.

And btw, at least 800 current Woz owners would disagree with you and another 200 will soon enough

That's really meaningful in the context of the discussion. I'm off 15 days, which I immediately acknowledged. JJP is off years and 200 games from "90 days-ish".

Are you guys serious? I heard Tim Duncan is gay, from an inside source, you call me a liar and then you have to prove why you are calling me a liar? wtf

NEITHER statement has any validity without ALL the facts and proof.

Jack is not perfect (show me who is), but Jack is heck of a nice guy where it counts the most, in his heart. He's a visionary, a hard-working man of action, a great salesman, and but most importantly, he's good and very generous in his heart, a model family man and a good provider to his people. If it weren't for Jack being who he is (with some rough edges sometimes) we certainly wouldn't have WOZ, or the pinball hobby where it's at right now.

As to the "800 current WOZ owners", I think the actual number is considerably higher than that, given the standard WOZ's and all that. And, as to the total number of all WOZ's sold and delivered a year from now, I'd say it'd be in the thousands by then, if not already.

Yes, I have issues with my game, but It is a masterpiece in its creation.

Yes Jack is a salesman, when he speaks, and he has said things that have not been consistent...Id hate to have all I have said, quoted, diced, inspected, and judged. Life is hard enough without this scrutiny,
It does not excuse the obvious, production delays and inconsistencies, but those waiting, will have a better game
with new boards, that I would have been happy to be in the position of waiting.

When all are delivered, this thread will have little meaning.

One has to respect Jack as a person, and for all the years I know him...not well, just shows, and NY/NJ,
he has been a stellar human being, a person to be proud of, a gentleman to all, and a family man of gracious
character.

Bumps, issues, words, delays, "promises" yes...but that is part of how crazy business is.
I am waiting 120 days on a proto bulb, I have been promising to people...I look the same to those people because
I havent delivered...yet....Mold issues, shortage of a specific component. Christmas, 30 Day winter Chinese Holidays...it isnt easy..

Keep the thread going, but perhaps just a small amount of respect for the business, and game and thanks for what Jack has done.

I'm sorry NO ONE makes more excuses than JJP Fanboys. Good lord its ridiculous....

It's "than" not "then" Ek77. Enough said . Good lord the whining from non Wozers is ridiculous!

Most of that is probably true, but don't forget to add something about unfulfilled promises, $125,000 in deposits not returned (Australia), and selling the same games twice. Jack had the courage to introduce new features and design content, and WOZ is beautiful for it. But courage to change does not earn one a sainthood when so many followers are left begging.

Changed it for you, gosh someone is ANAL!

$125k in deposits not returned? Are you saying that JJP stole $125k?

Or was it Bumper?

Read up.

JJP received $150,000 ex Bumper and produced just 4 machines before ending the franchise and taking another six figure sum in deposits from next franchise holder. Yes, Jack owes the Australian buyers about $125,000 but technically this is to go back to a now defunct company for distribution (the official company receiver might swallow a lot of it). Jack should pay the money back to those individuals who paid it in the first place, but technically the individuals are not the customer (Bumper is).

Bumper had taken in about $500,000 under the first owner, then first owner sent the above $100,000 over to JJP, and another $50,000 was sent by second owner of business. A further $260,000 was to go to Jack on proof of shipment of container loads but he never shipped them and instead sold them on to other new buyers without refunding or cancelling the original order. And then the $260,000 got spent (misused) by second owner. A further $170k remains uncollected on part paid machines.

Creditors are chasing the third owner of the business. There's a bit more to it but the guts of it are there.

Have we had enough regurgitation of Bumper yet?

That's right, now I remember, Jack is trying to do things the correct and legal way from what I understand. He can't simply refund the individuals directly anymore than you could in any bankruptcy case. That would be fraud on the creditors, as a whole. What's the problem? Other than the individuals getting screwed by Bumper and Jack doing everything in his power to help rectify the situation, from what I see, I'm not sure what else you could expect from him.

The creditors and bankruptcy trustee can go after those guys personally if they have anything, including the individual creditors.

As for JJP selling the same pins twice and getting paid twice for one pin? That's nonsense, Jack still has to deliver the deposits back to the entity pending a legal resolution and/or compromise. Would you send a container of pins at that time with the risk of not getting paid and funds cancelled and/or pins seized and never delivered? That's crazy. The $260k was already gone by that time. If JJP gets paid, they get shipped, they didn't get paid the balance. It's a F ed up situation.

I hope it works out as best as it can for everybody.

It's a shitty situation for sure, but yes, I agree with this. Jack can't give the money to the individuals who put money down with Bumper.

don't know what tim Duncan has to do with anything here, but if you want to spin or misdirect, go ahead....

Ice it's simple. You called MRDO a liar. I asked can you back it up? Can you, or can't you?

If you have falsely accused a fellow pinsider, here's hoping you do the right thing.

You have not seen my 7 year old son in action. He has more excuses than the JJP Fanboys combined.

Some of the JJP business practices are questionable.

But the game is pretty awesome and blows anything else in my collection away.

This is very funny and heart-warming at the same time.

I was secure in the knowledge that somebody would eventually rise to the occasion (better than I could) and give vtec16 an appropriate response for his comment. Jack should frame your post and put it on the wall in his office

The point is simply that the logic of my claim of him being a liar is no more or less valid than him throwing out some negative BS based on nothing but what I believe to be lies and hearsay, thus, he is lying in my opinion, if he's not, prove it…..

As far as business practices, see the GM hearings in congress? Take a peek at finra.org at the hundreds of pages of violations and fines for EACH name Wall Street firm, Merrill, Eddie Jones, Morgan Stanley, Ameriprise, etc. etc. you name it, yet people still buy their BS again and again. How about our government business practices? Take a look around folks! Jack may be a "sales guy" that let's his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird rear end sometimes, but let's get in the real world and put things in perspective a bit.

Ok, time to get ready for some lackluster Apple earnings report!

I dont mind the wait (just jumped in a few weeks ago). With the new boards holding up production im a bit happy my game did not ship before the update. This thread is for people waiting for the WOZECLE's and thats it. I dont even care what JJP promised to anyone. The only thing I care about is getting my WOZ and playing pinball which should be soon (7/5/11 invoice). If you want to start another topic about JJP's promises and business practices, feel free I hate when people complain about something that they have no stake in. I wish I had a quarter for every time I have seen the same post over and over. He lied to us, he promised us, he said this and that. When you have no stake in it you have no say in it. Back on topic and go away <edited> (people who just bad mouth pinball).

_{Post edited by moderator: that has no place on Pinside.}

How do I know JJP is doing the best they can? They are a for profit company. For profit companies need to deliver their promised products to stay in business. They had issues. Product was delayed. They worked the issues and are rolling machines as fast as they ever have off of the line. So I believe they are doing the best they can.

Do I have inside knowledge? No. I don't work there. Do you have knowledge otherwise? Please share!

How do I know they are not building reds yet? Read back on this thread. Pinch stated so. It is there in black and white. To the best of my knowledge I have not seen any of them in mass anywhere. Not on location, not in anyones basement, not in anyones showroom. So I think this rumor that they are mass producing Reds in front of LE's is unfounded.

Pin79 speculated that not all of the LE's would be delivered until 2015. I disagreed and threw a $100 carrot out there for fun. So not sure how that makes me spreading a rumor. If anything, it was stopping one from starting.

I really wish everyone that is pissed about getting their WoZ's too slow would just ask for their money back. If you don't trust JJP, it would only makes sense to do so. Life is too short...

Fagboys? Really? Lose that homophobic bullshit please.

Wow!!

Also this crap about stake in it?? Enough. We all buy different games. Today I won't buy WOZ but these conversation and things I hear could make buy a Hobbit or something later. At the same time these discussions help some (Not you) but others. They have helped several of us in many choices.

By the way I personally prefer Sterns but have and will own other games and as much as I praise them I also criticize them . mainly here on a forum designed specifically to do just that.

Let's hope it was just a typo...

Man that ruby red WOZ looks boss.