Looks like a fine machine and I wish the OP best of luck in the sale. I'm quite confident if that game was in the midwest, it would be sold by now.

I am in total agreement and have made this point before. NIB prices will have to put a floor on older pins (assuming technology doesn't change dramatically). I have always been in the camp that the highest risk was on games like AFM, MB, CC, BBB and MM (to name a lot of them) where prices are normally above most (in some cases all) NIB games. Personally, I would not go anywhere near a pin priced well above the price for a NIB PIN but I am not in the camp (like some are) that these older pins should have the same price characteristics and act from an appreciation standpoint like "fine art". To me, I always treat them like pieces of technology and expect them to someday act accordingly (i.e. lose value over time).

However, as long as NIB prices go up it will help stabilize older pin prices.....so you are 500% right in my opinion....my guess is NIB prices will actually start to decline over time (profit margins will shrink and/or technology advancements will allow them to be mass produced at a cheaper cost).......if that happens that will definitely hurt the prices of older pins. I still believe the 2014 price guide will mark the top for pin prices for a long time (maybe forever....time will tell). Plus, we are due for another recession over the next 1-3 years and if that happens watch pin prices really drop.......hey, if we ever get a depression you will see people can't eat pinball machines so that will really create some great buying opportunities......that's right a recession/depression can't ever happen either !!!!

Reports?

yeti_footprint.jpg

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Don't agree about the recession thought....what happened during the last recession? 2008 the stock market crashes job losses all over and what do pin prices do??? They rose and they rose quickly all the way up until last year. The crash of pins will be dur to inflated prices and the companies overpricing the pins. The pinball crowd caused this....JJP joins as the second maker of pins and prices rise rise rise...just baffles me. If JJP never came along Stern wouldn't have prices as high as they do today...I know I know quality etc but still prices were insane and they ar starting to correct themselves.....

Yes, reports. E.g.:

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-coming-home

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-arriving-tomorrow

Sigh...

I bought a GNR and Dr. Who in late 2008 for $2,500......I got a TEED OFF for $800 and a T2 for $800.......people needed cash and some needed it quickly. I bought player pianos, dirt bikes, jukeboxes, neon signs, etc. etc. in 2008/2009 (in fact I bought he current house I live in for a firesale in 2009). Truly, Cash was king and I went shopping for bargains and was buying everything and everything....most of it I still have......even got a beautiful pool table that they delivered and set up for $800 (really nice table)......it was a great time to have cash.....when opportunity arises the people who didn't overextend pounce......I have no debt at all.....none......that way nobody can ever take what you own !!!! I am a huge believer pinball machines are "expensive toys" and find it funny when people have $100K collections but still own a ton of money on their home.....makes no sense to me......then when they lose their job they want people to feel sorry for them that they can't pay their mortgage.....I just shake my head and think to myself "so why were they buying $5K pins".....you protect your family first and then you buy your TOYS.....well that is what I do. There will be another recession/depression still too much leverage as people truly never learn.....NOT ALL but MOST (most pinsiders are responsible but a lot are not).

+1 No debt means no worries. Easy living follows..

I disagree, Stern was raising prices while simultaneously cutting quality and build components (RS, Avatar, BBH, IM) JJP kept the price high but offered much more game than Stern did. However, thanks to the success of Tron Pro and the acquisition of some good licenses (ACDC, Metallica, Startrek), they were able to keep their LE price in line with JJP while selling a technologically inferior product.

The market isn't going to crash, but supply has caught up with demand, and games will drop in price unless they're exceptional. We already have a bunch of undelivered games in the works... Mustang, Hobbit, MMR, Popadiuk's games and all the botique titles.. Predator, TBL.... that's a lot of cash tied up, officially or not With all that on the horizon, it sometimes takes aggressive pricing to move games

Bet way to prop up prices is to keep getting new folks into pinball. Gary and Jack and Rick et al will thank you

Remember, when they were doing the econoline pins, (RS, BBH, IM, AV) the NIB prices didn't go up a whole hell of a lot. Instead of increasing prices, they were trying to cut corners to save money. Taping the LE market and catering to collectors starting making mass profits for Stern. but it wasn't until Jack announcing his opening price and seeing lines start, did they realize they were undercharging from the get go. For OPS, it's hard for them to make their money back, for collectors, they piss money away by the buckets. Now they are making record profits. But the market will settle back down and people will stop buying. Price will have to come back down at that point and they will have to make the profits in volume instead of ass raping.

Again, why do you blame Jack, or even Stern? WOZ costs a lot more to build than a Stern game, and it was priced accordingly. Stern pushed the price up every game because the market allowed them to - people were willing to pay for the licenses (Xmen, Avengers, rock bands, etc). Don't blame the sellers, blame the buyers. Or not, since it appears the buyers have backed away from the trough en-mass.

Would you rather Jack had come out with another typical DMD game slightly cheaper than Stern? Myself, I prefer innovation, and that costs money. I'm sure Jack would love to make profits in volume, but producing a new platform is a tricky proposition...

Sigh is right....

Maybe mine will be delivered on the back of a Chupacabra...

Stern was selling pins in the 3.8 k range when JJP started....

Remember when this was a for sale thread?

Wish you were closer. I'd be pleased to have you come and play mine. That goes for anyone else still waiting.

Bump MM for sale 8500....pretty darn good price....

Does it? I mean, we can guess, but you don't actually know that. How much more? You say a lot, but what's a lot? Pretty sure no one here knows the real BOMs for Stern and JJP.

that's true, but i think given the complexity of WOZ, the LCD screen, and the economy of scale enjoyed by Stern, it's a pretty reasonable statement.

Aurich: Aside from the BOM, I'm also factoring R&D time into the price. Being new and first costs money. As for the BOM itself, on a very basic level, there's more wood in the widebody game, it's thicker and appears to be of higher quality. JJP playfield is 11 layer as opposed to Stern's 7 layer plywood (yes I actually compared). Stern red LED DMD may be more or less the same as a 26" LCD, but JJP's PC based computer solution has lots more hardware than a SAM boardset. JJP's speakers are much better than Stern's junk. JJP backglass costs more than a translite. Under playfield components are higher quality - thicker metal on brackets, dual-wound flipper coils, thicker-gauge wire. Then there's the LED lighting system, which Stern finally caught up to... with $7500 STLE

You know as well as I do a Cobra and GT500 are nowhere NEAR 22.9. That is a stripped out V6.

Hell, terminators were nowhere near 22.9. Low mileage ones still go for more than that.

No need to bump ....I Pmd late last night and then again around 8:00. Followed it up with an email.
Seller must be a working man. I'm standing by....

GLWS!

Seems like SOME people cannot stop themselves from listing all the stuff they buy, all the pins they buy, how they are better than everyone else here. Why would someone come in a FS thread and list the things they have personally purchased? It seems....welll.....self centered and arrogant. I mean one can make an argument and present their position without listing their expensive toys. Oh wait...some people cannot help themselves!!! ...!!! .........!!!!!!!!.....!!!!!

I see threads like what this has become and feel sorry for brand new people in this hobby. Was it like this before 2008?

Where are these pictures from?

Its pretty much a pinside thing. It doesn't happen on the Bash or Village. Sometimes on RGP but not to the same extent.

Rick from PPS posted them (well, at least the pics of the MMr, not sure where he got the MM internal pic from but I'm guessing that's not what you wanted to know about). All of the PPS updates (culled from the massive MMr thread) can be seen here:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/medieval-madness-remake-updates.

Wish I was closer, oh wait.
Wish I had the space and money for it.

Hey listen if anybody is "investing" in pins they are setting themselves up to get hurt. This is a hobby which is an expense like every other hobby. If you can't afford to lose $8,000 then you should not be buying pins. The bubble that this hobby is experiencing is very predictable and will come to an end. It is starting to deflate as we speak. Prices are coming back down to earth and still have a ways to go. I would still buy pins even if after 5 years my pins were worth nothing. You can't put a price on fun.( and for everything else there is Mastercard.) I would recommend this book to people in the hobby. It is well worth the 2 hour read. I read it once per year to keep my emotions in check.
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Double post. Sorry

So for instance, do you know how much more (if anything) JJP is paying for that LCD versus an LED DMD? Those DMDs aren't really that cheap, and LCD prices have kept falling for years.

Is the BOM on WOZ that much more than say, TSPP? I know people are super obsessed with toys, and how many toys something has, but toys add 10s to 100s of dollars to cost, not thousands. Yes, you pay Matt to sculpt them etc, but those costs are amortized out.

I just don't think we should say WOZ costs a lot more to make, when we don't have the numbers, and can't actually even guess at what that "a lot" really is. There are no facts to base it on, just guesswork.

Obviously JJP had to make a new platform etc, I don't doubt they had expenses, but you amortize that out too across a whole generation of machines, it's part of a basic business plan. Stern's making a new platform now too.

With a $6400 Premium you mean. Same price as the Premium before it, that had no color changing LEDs. No doubt things cost, but again without the BOM it's all shots in the dark.

The Bash or Village ??? Are these other pin forums ??

Will someone buy this $8,500 MM......I am getting tempted but don't feel like making a long drive !!!! This is a decent price so someone step up to the plate so I don't have to spend a night in the Carolinas...LOL....not that I don't like the Carolinas !!! In fact, it will probably be warmer then Maryland !!!

As for prices.......they keep going down and I don't know why that is a surprise to anyone (most of us saw this coming late last year). With the summer approaching (which is always the weakest time) they will at least go down through the summer (as they normally "soften" in the summer anyway) so in my opinion that is why games are having to be sold at good prices now as people prefer not to move them this summer. Most people know the "cycles" and we are fast approaching the slower time to move pins which is May though September so people are generating cash now which is smart. I got all my good pin deals last year during the summer months and would rather wait a few months when the upside risk is limited especially this year with all the money that people will have to pay for some of the new titles.....so as the ROLLING STONES SANG "TIME IS ON MY SIDE" and summer is only a few months away !!! As the Cars sang "LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL" !!!

Thanks for the suggested read, just ordered one off of Amazon. I could not agree more.

OP - thanks for offering us the shot at the machine first at a great price before throwing it on eBay

Wait, none? Lol..

/golfclap

GLWS!

.......

!!!!!!!!

You are welcome Multiball. You will enjoy this book. It talks about the Tulip Mania in the 1600's where people would buy one bulb for the price of a house at that time. It truly is amazing what people do when things start to get out of control. It applies to all public markets and no one is immune including Isaac Newton who lost a lot of money in a bubble.

Actually, they started off small - ACDC has what, 16 RGB LEDs? Metallica has some but I don't know how many because they never do anything. Not sure if Avengers LE has them.

AC/DC has more than that. All the GI"s and all the lamp matrix is RGB. That's like 50+ lights.

No, ACDC GI is static LED bulbs... red, white or blue. The game lights (or not) different ones for different effects, but each bulb only prouces one color. Many of the inserts are monochrome LED as well - all the multiball, cannon and super inserts near the player, for example. AC/DC and ROCK are monochrome as well.

but has duel GI's if you count the inserts, there are a lot more color changing going on than you may think. Mini playfield included.

Has to be RGB, because i've had RGB LED's fall out of GI sockets and roll down the field before.

Come on, dude... you're all about selling for a profit. Aren't you the guy that bought the BSD a few months ago from Mike? You spent hours pounding out detailed posts about how Mike had "overpaid" but sold the game to you for a fair price??

Here's a quote of yours:

"Finally, for those of you that can find a completely working BSD locally for $1,200 please knock yourself out......I have never seen one (and Mike's wasn't in that bad of shape I felt either) and Mike's was a 6 or 7/10 in my opinion with a slightly bad touch up on the playfield and faded cabinet.....what do you guys want for $1,600 a 8/10.....LOL !!!! Plus no shipping and a 4 hour round trip drive......this is exactly why I was able to build a collection in 6 months.....paying a "fair price" is what I do and not thinking about it for days.....sometimes I pay a little more then most and sometimes a little less but at the end of the day I try to be fair..."

What's funny is, it looks like you are trying to sell that game on Craigslist right now for $2,100... saying that the game has two "minor touch ups" that "don't bother you."

washingtondc.craigslist.org link

For all the banter about how prices are falling and how people need to get real, it appears you are trying to drive the price up on something that just a few short months ago you told everyone was fairly priced for $500 less.

What gives.

Lmao if this is true. Busted. Hop has written an opus collectively in numerous threads about prices falling, then turns around and flips a game for more money. So let me guess, you put money in it to get it in tip top shape and you just want to "get back what you have in it." So that's how you're debt free; making money flippin'.

haha nice work!

BLLLaaahahahah

HOP= Biggest hypocrite on pinside.

Have his butt on ignore. Just got tired of "reading crazy". I can go to your choice of mainstream news media's website for that.