how are the inserts ?

Harry meet sally...
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wtb-black-knight-playfield-set-from-cpr

Looks pretty. If I had the $ to blow I'd consider it, but paid less then that for my BK and the playfeild just needs some love and a clear. Someone will grab this. How bad is that insert lifting? Any cracking of the clear around them?

Thanks for the great pictures, it seems that these CPR PFs inserts lift and crack the CC. I have a BK and was considering this PF but the flaws are more than I can deal with.

CPR Inserts do not Lift & Crack the CC.....See { READ } "TECHNICAL ILLUSTRATIONS" at the bottom of this page for an explination....
http://classicplayfields.com/standards.html

The clear coat cracks around the inserts on every CPR PF I have owned. I have seen many others as well , this one for sale is no exception.

Whoa whoa. Jim? This is a VERY serious blow to put out there on the forums. I need to head this off at the pass immediately.

We've been doing playfields for NINE YEARS, and I can tell you this has only happened on a few dozen playfields on TWO RUNS. Those runs were Firepower and Space Shuttle - precisely the first two runs where we began using inserts from Mirco in Germany. (FYI the two titles were made back to back - nearly shipping on top of each other).

Mirco inserts had glass-smooth edges, and it so happened that those smooth edges created a risk that they could cleanly release themselves from the solid marine epoxy bed they were embedded with. And they did. On about 20 playfields (of 150) of the Firepowers, and about 20 (of 200) of the Space Shuttles. In our own hindsight, who would have thought that inserts could dance their way out of the grip of perfect epoxy embedding? Well... those inserts could. It was a staggering surprise. But we dealt with it. All those guys either exchanged, returned, refunded, or took partial refunds. Each guy to their own.

After that, any Mirco-insert playfield that came after that, we had to hand-grind the edges of the inserts with 40-60 grit belt sanders before they were seated in the epoxy/holes. Never been a budge since. Never was a budge prior.

(BTW - they don't release in Mirco playfields because of his solvent glue - which chemically bites into the plastic and holds.)

There have been times some of the guys have epoxied the wrong color insert in a hole during gluing sessions. We of course had to correct those - and guess what... it takes a copper pipe and a hammer (from the rear) to whack those out of the wood... and it flies across the room... a round plastic insert, surrounded in solid epoxy and a chunk of wood around it ! The wood gives before the epoxy ! As is true with epoxy. Pure solid goodness. That is how our inserts are seated, and have always been. The only run exception(s) as mentioned above, as epoxy will not hold to a glass smooth surface. (Nothing to bite)

Mike and I hold onto "keeper" playfields from each run (usually 2 each - one for the wall, one for swapping). So that's a total of (4) examples from every run, all the way back to 2005.

Not one single budge on any of the inserts across 9 years (including our 4 BK pairs from 2007). One exception: 1 of my Firepowers has a released corner on one of its hotdogs - because it was one that came back from an exchange, and it didn't bother me to keep it as my wall hanger.

Even this guy doesn't have inserts popping out. He said he could "feel the edges". He didn't say the inserts were released and cracking out through the clearcoat. Being able to feel the edges means the clearcoat has settled and there will be a *hint* of the circular rings felt on the stock surface that's hunkered down after about 6mos to a year. You could wetsand that puppy with 1500, 3000 grit... then machine polish it with compound... then buff it even further... and it would be perfect flat glass forevermore. That clear is perfect for that. 6 years old now. It's stopped moving. That's what you want.

Over the last 3 years (ended back last fall) we've slowly sold down our sitting stock of BK seconds that we've had all that time (we made waaaay too many BK pairs back in 2007)... but anyway, there may have been I dunno, three dozen ? None one of them had an insert budge over all those years... right to the moment each and every one went in a box and shipped outta here. Right up until last fall. 6 year old clearcoats too.

Not trying to win an argument. Just trying to correct the "CPR inserts lift and crack" blanket statement ASAP. That's a baaaaaad tagline to have for a repro playfield operation. I just can't have it.

I'm sure you'll reply with what you have seen on what titles - and I'm very curious myself. I can rest assure you that any exceptions have a specific *individual* reason (NOT run-wide!) localized to that particular playfield, environment, or user. There are always odd exceptions to everything. Like a Fathom with a popping insert? Or a Xenon? Or a EBD? Or an FG? Or an SBM? The list goes on. I'd have to see it to believe it. Everybody needs to be assured: it is truly impossible for a non-Mirco embedded insert to "just release" and crack it's way out of the face of our playfields. (Remember - pipe and hammer, entire wood chunk comes out with it) If there is an exception, there will be a very distinct odd-duck reason. I'd love to see pictures of some non-Firepower, non-Shuttle examples.

Anybody?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

I ordered a CPR black knight playfield that was seconds quality this past fall, and none of my inserts were raised at all and it was in excellent shape. I think they do great work.

I guess, I am just unlucky and every CPR pf I own is cracked. I am just stating my experience and not trying to knock CPR.

Here is the last PF I received and it was un-boxed this way.

IMG_0560.JPG

The crazing of the actual insert is terrible. I know we're talking about the insert lifting and edging but what causes inserts to craze like that? Is it like that throughout the playfield. I would not be happy with that. I was leary of my mirco mm playfield for that very reason. Luckily it didn't have it.

The BK pf in this thread has cracked inserts! the 2X is the most noticeable if you click on the picture to make it bigger you will clearly see it .

Also the Whirlwind that I bought is cracked as well as seen in the photo above. I have seen Fathom with the same issue as well as my Firepower and my BK.

The Inserts are NOT "Cracked".....What you are seeing is Clearcoat getting down into Micro-Fishers in the Insert Plastic, this is caused by a Chemical Reaction between the Plastic & 2 of the Chemicals in the Clearcoat, but the Plastic is Not Cracked. A "crack" is a "Structural BREAK" in the plastic and this Is NOT the case....People are calling this "crackeling" which is actually a bad and misinterpited term for what is happening. We have been working on the issue for some time now, experimenting with different techniques to get rid of this issue. Crackeling has been happening since the beginning of Plastic Inserts in Playfields, just looka at any 30-35 year old Classic Bally or Classic Williams game, they ALL have crackels in one form or another.....

"Crackeling" Cut-And-Pasted from our Web Site:
http://classicplayfields.com/standards.html

INSERT "CRACKLES"
Raw inserts are injection-molded as hot liquid plastic, quickly cooled, and ejected from their mold. Whether we get our inserts from the original molds/factories in Chicago, or from other vendors with new tooling to replace extinct designs - the process is the same, the plastic is the same, and the results are the same. Some inserts may show "crackles" in their face. Most don't.

But why do they happen? The traditional insert embedding process is illustrated below. Basically, an insert starts as a closed smooth shiny plastic part. It's essentially waterproof/liquid-proof. Their topsides are typically not flat, have part numbers or codes, and are slightly rounded at their edges. When embedded in the playfield, they stand slightly tall of the wood, to start. Levelling of the playfield with large drum sanding machinery (because even the raw gameboard panel is not perfectly surface-flat) flattens the entire topside, taking off about half of the mapletop veneer, as well as all the insert tops. This leaves behind wood/inserts/glue that are exactly at the
same level. The inserts are now open-faced, exposing their inner plastic. Their smooth closed face has been sanded off. Microscopic cooling and flow fissures on the INSIDE of the body of the insert are now at the surface of the insert. Injected polycarbonate, like crystals, have these attributes internally, by default. They become visible once clearcoat hits the surface, and capillary action draws the liquid clear into the fissures, making them visible. (see illustrations below) They appear within 2 seconds of being hit by the first coat of clear, no matter how light. Like a sponge or pipette, the clear is drawn into the body of the insert.

Crackled inserts have been on playfields for decades. The professional factories could never eliminate their occurrence, and after everything we have tried over the years, we now see why. There isn't a way to totally eliminate them, beyond selling the playfields without clearcoat... which only means the end-user will reveal crackles when they clearcoat anyway!

Crackled inserts have not been forcibly impacted (smashed). They do not indicate a playfield mishandled in shipping. The inserts are not being crushed or squeezed by the surrounding wood. The crackles will not increase or get worse. Rest easy - It is a cosmetic matter only, not structural.

I am not talking about the crackling in the insert itself but the cracks in the clear coat caused by the insert lifting! See the white crack in the black boarder just to the left of the arrow on the Whirlwind pf? That is a crack in the clear ! It is a jagged line because it is a crack!

And the rest of the playfield ??? How are all the other inserts on that board? Are we talking about single a 1 inch hairline on one insert? You said that CPR inserts eventually lift and crack through the clearcoat. So all/most of your WW's inserts are effected, right?

Since you've been "struck by lightning" a few times, having what I'm trying to implore to you is a very very very very very rare occurrence on a CPR playfield, I have to make clear this is not standard fare as being declared.

OK, I see a crack line. But I wouldn't be questioning the WW playfield run or our insert methodology, I'm questioning what in the world is the playfield experiencing for that to happen. Mike & I have over 100 examples of CPR playfields spanning nine years of playfields (including yes - 4 Whirlwinds) without a single crack... I'd say you have a distinct something going on. Either your boards are drying out too fast, or humidifying too fast, or your particular UPS driver is bowing the boxes over a workhorse in the back of his truck... you get the idea.

So yes, I'm talking about your playfields, your individual landed CPR playfields. You are transposing those observations to the whole run or CPR world of inserts in general. No. Simply not the case. What your inserts are doing are farrrrrrrrrrrrr from the norm. Like probably 1 in 500. Which is why I question your concentration of occurrences. I'm not blaming you, but something specific is going on.

I could haul out 5000 pictures of every insert on Mike and I's 100 playfields... which testimony sets the paradigm?

Again, not a matter of winning an argument. We know yours are getting hairlines around some inserts.

I'm trying to find somebody else. Plus I want to see this alleged insert RELEASE and LIFTING - where you can catch a piece of paper or something on the edge. Non-Firepower, Non-Shuttle examples. All CPR playfields experience this, it's being claimed. So let's see 'em. Hundreds of you guys on here own 'em.

Anybody? Photos.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

I have a BK first that I purchased from CPR a few years back that is also currently unused and being stored in a temperature and humidity controlled environment, being stored on a flat, level surface. I have not added any additional clear coat layers and I will grab some photos of it tonight and put them up. I don't recall seeing any insert cracks similar to the whirlwind in this thread. Not sure at this moment about the "crackling" (for lack of a better term), but I'll take a look at mine.

I will tell you that if I run my finger around the playfield, I can tell you where the inserts start. The surface is not "glass" smooth (not that I'd expect it to be sans a 1500/3000 grit wet sanding and additional cc layer applications), and I am not sure how many inserts have the "ridge" (for lack of a better term), but I'll report my findings with pics tomorrow (or later tonight)

Thread=derailed

I have stated my experience ! I responded to a guy selling his PF and ask about his inserts since I have had issues with mine.. Guess what, his is just like mine. How crazy is that? I must be the only one that can see this problem? It is bigger then just me. I live in the desert and the OP lives in Ohio. Same problem ,cracked clear coat .

So what , mine is cracked and so is the OPs !

I suggest you find the problem and fix it.

Thanks

Jim

That's the rub. There is no CPR insert problem. IMHO nothing about our insert methodology that needs to be fixed.

Why do I say that? I guess I need to start over and put it another way...

Let's say a playfield has 40 inserts on average... So a run of 100 playfields has 4000 inserts seated. Let's also say for sake of worst case that a massive TEN playfields in that 100 (10%) have a couple inserts hairline crack through the clear. So that's 20 inserts of 4000 seated. The other 3980 stay fine.

So after they are all delivered (because NONE leave here that way) and all the inserts do what they're gonna do, we end up with results of 3980/4000 inserts perfect vs. 20/4000 inserts cracked. That's IF 10% of boards are effected. I doubt it's even 1% truthfully. But we'll go with this...

So do CPR playfields have an "insert problem" ? Something in the way our inserts are seated is flawed? There is a problem to fix ?

OR (like me) would one ask: "What is it about those 20 inserts that made them crack, but didn't effect the 3980 ?"

Could be those specific inserts were seated differently? I've asked the guys, and they say no. It's hearty amounts of epoxy on each one. None are missed. Each has beyond plenty. They've been doing it for years. None are missed, or they wouldn't survive the machines later.

When you're gluing 4000 inserts, and say somebody tells you that a handful of them (you have no clue which ones) will end up cracking through the clear months or years later... what do you do differently? Is it even something you are methodically doing wrong? Especially when each one is seated so robustly, and you know it while you're doing it. When it takes a hammer to get them out. Which ones will it be? Why will they happen? It's truly a mystery. It's freakin' impossible for those to release. What does one "fix"? I've talked with the guys. It's shrugs. I shrug too.

Something is happening afterward. I don't know what it is, but it's always after they have left here. Not one, absolutely ZERO (0.00000) playfields here have ever cracked clear around an insert. Not one has ever left here that way, either. It's also ending up to be soooo few, that I'd have no idea what to change on the macro level to eliminate it. Is it even eliminate-able?

It also begs the question, why didn't all the other inserts equally crack around their perimeter on the same board? What allowed them stay put? If there is a macro methodology problem, they're all seated the same, thus why not all 40 inserts showing this?

I'm totally for fixing a problem if we didn't do inserts correctly, but I think the cause lies outside here. I truly do. I also don't think the insert(s) have released from their foundation at all. They're not free floating and "rising up"... I think the border between wood and plastic has expanded/contracted enough to make a split. The insert isn't heading anywhere. If it was, it could wiggle like a loose tooth. It would be sticking above playfield level, and you could catch a credit card on the edge. I'm not seeing that on these examples. I see a split, which is an indicator of expansion/contraction. I don't know how we can prevent that here.

I'm up for any ideas. How does one "fix" 3980/4000 inserts to bring it to 4000/4000 ? Especially when it happens anywhere from during shipping to months/years later? There's got to be experts on here that know about this wood stuff. Any guitar makers or anything?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

I sold my Silverball Mania playfield that looked like some inserts had lifted compared to other ones. I disclosed this to the buyer & he was happy to get a playfield. I said either more clear coats or build up some carnuba wax coats.

I have no idea if my new playfields will have a similar situation or not. Just seems weird that if the lenses are sanded after glueing, that some seem raised after clear coating. I have bought 4 CPR playfields, 2 Flash Gordon, 1 Silverball Mania playfield, & 1 Xenon gold.

Overall I'm very happy that CPR is producing thousands of playfields over the years. My best guess is any manufacturing you expect 3 - 5 %, that's what I see in my pinball parts production.

So am I , I hope to get a Banzai someday . I am not saying who's fault it is but I am saying I have had repeated issues with the inserts raising and cracking the surface of the PFs I have seen and bought from Kevin.

I don't have a fix and think it is very fair to ask question about PF inserts on a 1300.00 PF !

Jim

$ 1,300.00 ? I think it's a bad move to spend $1,300 for a PF your "Not 100% Happy With" & then complain about it in a public forum.....Just who did you buy this from for that kind of price and more importantly > Why? It's not like you couldn't have waited for the re-run & buy it at the retail price Hundreds of dollars lower!

It's not the inserts "raising" it's the Clearcoat "setteling" over a period of time through different environmental conditions. This is normal, as explained on the web site.

Just curious, not picking a fight, If you have had numerous issues with CPR products Why do you continue to buy them?....I would think for $1,300 you could buy an NOS PF and have it Touched up & Clearcoated professionally...

Yes you are !! Knock it off ! Did you read this thread or did you just read the parts you wanted ? I am the guy telling the truth and you are trying to mask the issues !

I suggest you re read this thread and read it carefully starting at the very top and you will see that your last response is ridiculous !

Jim

sigh I give up, You Win!.....you win this spectacular wonderful old sock I found behind the dryer, will ship out with your next purchase....but don't fret it doesn't have any cracks in the sock, but it's kinda crusty and smells pretty bad ( no warrantee on shipping > but may crack & lift ) < this is picking a fight

Just gotta call shenanigans here from the chap who is offering to sell his BK playfield in another thread for the super low price of $1650.

In all fairness Stu, I think he was referring to the $1300 being asked for this particular set by the OP.

Chris

Shenanigans?....this coming from the guy who gave me the run-around on a Dolly Pin Purchase that he said he had for sale & didn't even own?....You really need to get it together before you try calling someone out Oliver......

My BK Playfield has ZERO issues, was Hand Picked to be the Best of the Run, and has Additional Clearcoats, No issues > UNLIKE the one that the OP posted for sale at the beginning of this thread....

Chris, I get that, and I did say that I was Not trying to pick a fight, I simply asked why would someone pay that kind of money for something that they didn't think was 100% perfect (in their own opnion), Especially when there is more coming at a lower price and/or continue to buy from the manufacturer when they continously are Not Happy with the products....it was a legitimate question.....

Ah, gotcha.

Carry on

Chris

Actually Stu, I think it was how often you used the word "unobtanium" in reference to your Centaur playfield that soured me on that Dolly deal. But thank you for attempting to divert the focus away from your own shenanigans. Well played sir

If you can find another Perfect CPR Centaur PF & New Plastics set for what I was offering it to you I suggest you break out your wallet and buy it immediately because the prices are only going up from there....it was a great deal I was offering, yet you gave me the run-around on Pins that you Didn't even Own!....will never do business with you.....

Let's see, where is that ignore button again? Ah yes.

Let's see, Who do I add to that "CPR Blacklisted, Do Not Sell to List"...Ah Yes.

277.jpg

I don't see thi sending well for anyone

Chris

I certainly understand Jim's position here as when I purchase something I want it to be "defect" free BUT when you purchase a playfield from CPR the issue in question here is something that can occur. CPR even goes to the point of advising customers of this on their site. So if you purchase a playfield from them you do so with the notion that this may happen. It would be a different situation if CPR didn't divulge this information but again since they do buyers agree to the terms when purchasing from them. Am I missing something here???

Kevin, stop posting and get my Medusa playfield started...... and please send me one that the inserts wont raise!!!

I didn't win shit. I got three bad PFs. This is my CPR BK PF I bought back in 2009, I sold the game with the PF as a restoration project and the new owner of the PF dealt with Kevin and had good results . I am not questioning CPR willing to work with people as they do a great job with customer service.

The problem is ,I bought a Firepower the had the exact same issue and Kevin made me a good deal on the Whirlwind PF only to have the exact same issue . There is a problem and I am not alone in this. I am just hoping that Kevin can get this issue taken care of some how some way.

Information is good, if we are willing to listen .

bkpf1.JPG

bkpf2.JPG

bkpf3.JPG

What are you, 11 years old?

I'm 12 so don't mess with me....my mom can beat up ur mom!

I thought the same thing. Keeping it classy.

I think it's odd that they are surprised by this. I have bought 3 playfields totaling over $4,000 from three different sources. On all three occasions, they used the CPR deficiencies found on some of their playfields to help illustrate that the playfields I was buying didn't have these flaws. I assumed it was common knowledge.

What a train wreck. In the interest of CPR doing business, would it not make sense to reach out to Jim to discuss this issue further (its not like he is some newbie posting random thoughts)? This being played out in the forum just appears to be bad business.

I've got a CPR Cylcone playfield that I'm very happy with. I've had a small issue on one order, and i have to state that Kevin made it right. So i am a fan of what CPR is doing for the hobby.

I just dont get why you would let this go to this level in the forums. Work this out......

Stu, what happened to you blasting people who sold things for far over what they paid? I know you are in this hobby for the right reasons, but stooping to the level of flippers and people looking to make a profit won't make things better for the hobby. Being who you are I would think that you would be happy to see these playfields get into the hand of true collectors who will appreciate having them and not flip them.

Got tired of all the bulls**t people ( mostly flippers ) kept giving me for trying to keep it afforadable, so I figured if I can't beat um > join um....and just so you know I was offering to trade a "perfect" cpr centaur playfield & plastics set for 2 trashed out dolly pins worth $500/ea. ( sellers price) ($1,000.00 total) My New CPR Centaur PF + New CPR Plastics = $105 for the Plastics + $14 Shipping means I was offering the PF for $820 + $60 Shipping....NOT "over priced" at all......

There is always someone trying to screw over people in the name of the "hobby." Sometimes they hoard NIB pins and act like they are doing everyone a favor by selling them, and sometimes it's CPR stuff. It's sad that these people claim to be part of the hobby, but it's best to just consider it the cost of doing business.

As a guy who is on the outside looking in, it looks to me like Jim has some really good points. I would expect a brand new WW play field to be perfect, and his insert looks to be lifting and cracking. If the number of actual play fields that do that is small, it should be easy to take care of him with a new one, I'm sure you guys have all that built into your costs.

I dunno, it seems like maybe there is a larger discussion here and this is only a small piece of it. Seems like a simple RMA issue to me on a play field with lifting inserts.

My 2 cents, though it's probably not worth any more than that

Guys,

I'm well aware of Jim's cracks now. He's been struck three occurrences of cracks on playfield inserts. He's provided photos. He's not making it up. I get that. The Firepower I get - and I think I remember he got it exchanged or credited or something (which people should do). That was one of the two runs with the Mirco inserts releasing from the epoxy. But the other two (BK and WW) are definitely odd to me. Those runs I've never been communcated with a single return/exchange/complaint of a runwide crack around insert issue. Not even sporatic ones years later. If there are, I want those people to step forward and email me to get some resolution.

Return for a complete refund is still available (always is). Exchange is only available until we run out of said playfield. Partial refund is also available to discount the original price paid, if one wants to keep the playfield as-is. Jim and I can email off the forum. I indeed want him to be happy and/or feel he was treated fairly for the playfields he got vs. the price(s) he paid. Or the freedom to abort totally, and return them and get his money back.

It's not Jim's fault, but I do worry about playfields going to his area I know he's not doing anything to the playfields, but how one guy gets playfields at all different times, from totally different runs, and they either immediately or later experience some insert cracks... it's an interesting concentration of the same rare case.

We had another customer that his playfields always arrived with a mashed corner on the box, making the upper right corner (every time the upper right, too) on those playfields get splayed a bit. Three different playfields. Three totally different UPS shipments, across three years. Amazing. All went through exchanges, and the second shipment always arrived immaculate. It's actually a running joke between us whenever he buys a playfield now. "will UPS smash my upper right corner" Luckily, the last couple years the phenomenon stopped.

Still looking for any other insert clear/crack instances (photos) from any of you hundreds of guys on there who have CPR playfields. Well aware of Jim's. Anybody else? I'm trying to get an idea of truly how common or uncommon this is. Because nobody has reported anything to me since the FP and SS days.

Also, any ideas on how to increase "3980/4000 good inserts to 4000/4000 good inserts" results from any woodworker types on here?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

for the customer service

Just to be clear ( no pun intended) I do not want anything from Kevin. I have been dealing with these issues for a while now and understand a fix is very difficult. Kevin has always treated me very well ,like ALWAYS !

This whole thread went crazy because I ask the OP about the inserts on his Black Knight PF. The OP lives in Ohio and his PF exhibits the same flaws mine do. So I have come to the conclusion, that the problem is not just the low humidity of the southwest desert .

Thank you RoyF for not trying to hide anything about your PF and answering my one question.

I am glad Kevin goes though the trouble of making these parts for our games. I know for a fact I could not even come close to what CPR team has accomplished .

I hope through all of this stuff Kevin can find the answer so he does not lose sleep over this shit.

Jim

Jim, so does this mean your mom and Stu's mom will not be fighting???

Seriously, good to see you and Kevin come back with your responses as things did spiral out of controL

Kevin,

The only way I see to eliminate the problem, without knowing anything about your methodology, would be to better control the curing process of the clearcoat and insert epoxy.

Questions:

1. When you receive the blanks for the playfields, are they 'cured' before the inserts are put in them? Temperature and humidity controlled drying?
2. When the inserts are epoxied in, is that done in a temp/hum controlled environment?
3. When the cc is applied, same questions? Is it uv cured clearcoat? Is it dried at manufacturer spec for humidity and temperature?

The only potential I see for problem is if the temp/humidity is not controlled or the epoxy/cc is allowed to dry too rapidly.

I don't recall, but you guys do dry the playfields before being shipped, right? If it's the DuPont cc compound that I'm familiar with, I think DuPont recommends 30 days to what they consider "completely" cured. Not sure for other manufacturers.

All that being said (and that has been said in this thread), I am still waiting for my Xenon playfield, will buy it and happily install it, and still intend on putting my BK playfield in my machine 'someday' (I still haven't had a chance to get it out and photograph it, but hope to tonight).

Just got a cpr bk playfield from a fellow pinside member. Its a second run #11 of 35. Its gorgeous and smooth as glass.