I think stop-and-go designs can still feel like they have flow. With good timing and sound design the *game* never feels like it stops.
Dr Dude is a great example IMO.
Quoted from pinballkim:Road Show.
You think RS is a no-flow stop-and-go pin? I'd say it has some great flow! Only two shots (three if you count Ted's mouth) hang onto the ball.
If RS qualifies then so does Funhouse and especially TZ.
I guess I have to read through the argument threads about what qualifies as 'flow' and what doesn't.
Some good examples:
MM - you have to wait for-ev-er for Merlin and the castle to give up the ball; ball lock too really kills the flow
TZ - probably no arguments
AFM - SOL, ball locks, destroying the saucer (or worse, attacking mars)
TAF - shooting any scoop, multiball takes forever
LOTR - has a mini playfield. Enough said
TOTAN - Genie and lamp make for a perfect flow killer
SS - Bash toy, spider web, dead heads
CV - ring master kills flow, so do the weird slings and pops in the middle the playfield
WOZ - weak flippers lol
TSPP
And the list goes on. I've never understood the fixation with flow. Steve Ritchie games are awesome, but there are other games out there.
Lots of non-flow games. Flow has a place. I just traded an ES for a BK2K. Opposite style of play. ES has some flow with the loop/orbit and the scenic route, but lots of short table play as well. BoP comes to mind as well as lots of Early SS and most EM games. So yeah, with literally hundreds to choose from...
Ripley's is stop and go, IMO.
Hard to flow unless you can hit the shot between the lower pops with your right flipper. The left (temple ramp) shot will stop once you gather a jewel... and the scoop will grab the ball. Penguin loops are do-able, if you have a strong enough upper flipper (mine isn't). You could hit the right ramp repeatedly, but that isn't really flow
Quoted from alichino:And the list goes on. I've never understood the fixation with flow. Steve Ritchie games are awesome, but there are other games out there.
I think I need some clarification. Scared Stiff and AFM are 'no-flow stop-and-go' pins?
Is your definition of 'flow' that every single shot must be a loop or a ramp that returns the ball to the flippers? If there's a single scoop or saucer then the whole rest of the design, no matter how 'flowy' is thrown out?
Doesn't sound like a helpful definition to me.
flow is always overrated. I'll take stop and go any day, due to the fact that it opens up so many possibilities from design aspect. Only about 3 ways you can do a flow layout.
TZ is probably the most perfectly designed pinball machine ever made. Both layout, toys and rules. It's as close to perfection as you can get.
Quoted from accidental:I think I need some clarification. Scared Stiff and AFM are 'no-flow stop-and-go' pins?
Is your definition of 'flow' that every single shot must be a loop or a ramp that returns the ball to the flippers? If there's a single scoop or saucer then the whole rest of the design, no matter how 'flowy' is thrown out?
Doesn't sound like a helpful definition to me.
Flow isn't really well defined, either, and I'm just poking fun at the zealotry for it on here.
For SS, if the hole is very important to scoring well and it holds the ball for 10-15 seconds (a la the spider web scoop on SS), then it's totally a flow killer. Also, keep in mind, 1/3 of the game is bashing the crate (both for the multiball and wizard). The dead head shot stops at the top and bounces around before being ejected into the pops (flow killer).
AFM... before you collect the left and right orbits, it stops in the pops, and gets shot out through SOL, which is a flow killer. Qualifying the lock is flowy, but having to wait through animations during a lock? Not flowy. And 1/2 of the game is bashing the center target, which is the opposite of flow.
They're great games. Both of them. I'd love to own both of them, but they're not flowy. I'm just pointing out that using 'flow' as a measure of how good a game is is pretty ridiculous. Most games are not Star Trek flowy, and they're still fantastic games.
I see what you're saying, and I didn't realise you were poking fun at the definition
I think a game can have a flow-killing element or two and still have great flow on the whole. SS is such a smoothly playing game that I think the word 'flow' accurately describes the feel of it. I don't think I've played a game with smoother flowing ramps than SS.
No worries, and SS is probably the biggest stretch. Especially the left ramp to lock. So satisfying when you can hit it. What I really appreciate about that game is the way it mixes those two styles. Coffin multiball is all about ramp, ramp, ramp (very flowy) vs crate multiball, which is all about slowing down, getting the ball under control, and setting up the shots (not too flowy). And then the wizard mode which just outright combines them.
It's not TZ stop-and-go, but it does weigh in pretty heavily, and the game is that much more interesting for it.
I was just going down the top 100 and picking out the really great games that weren't AC/DC or Star Trek.
<blo ckquote cite="#1594196">flow is always overrated. I'll take stop and go any day, due to the fact that it opens up so many possibilities from design aspect. Only about 3 ways you can do a flow layout.
TZ is probably the most perfectly designed pinball machine ever made. Both layout, toys and rules. It's as close to perfection as you can get.
Amen Brotha! That's why it's the best ever. Well,there is a newer pin that's taken that spot in my mind,but its a totally different game all around. TZ is always fun even though I've been playing it for over 20 years. A family pass on for sure. It's actually in my will!?!
Quoted from CaptainNeo:TZ is probably the most perfectly designed pinball machine ever made.
if you think TZ is pinball perfection, i've found your next ride.
1I2B9665,large.2x.jpg
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