(Topic ID: 23506)

EM Techs – question, What does the resistor do

By Chrisbee

11 years ago


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    #1 11 years ago

    What does the resistor do?

    lock_RE.jpglock_RE.jpg

    #2 11 years ago

    It looks like a pull down resistor. I would guess that resistor will prevent your coin lock out relay from staying de-energized, but it might be able to momentarily de-energize. What switches are on the coin lock out relay?

    #3 11 years ago

    What switches are on the coin lock out relay?

    The only switch you can’t see is the delay RE., should have no effect.

    #4 11 years ago

    I agree that it should have no effect.

    I'm an electronics guy and a lot of this AC stuff is fuzzy for me, but it still looks like a pulldown resistor to me. In other words, if the switch on the score motor failed, the coil would energize through this resistor, but it would do it comparatively slowly.

    If that's the case the better question might be, is there a reason the coin lockout relay might need to fail safe?

    #5 11 years ago

    This Coin Lock coil allows coins though the coin slots to start a game, when de-energized the coins drop though to the bottom of the door, same as the eject button. I’m sure the Coil has around 100 ohms resistance, draws around 25 Watts. When the score motor is not at zero, power to this coil thought the 8200ohm resistor the draw will be around 300 mW, can’t think why you would want that? If you wanted the coil to stay energized, why go though the score motor?
    What am I missing here?

    #6 11 years ago

    I'm not sure what we're missing. The only other purpose I can think of would be to provide a warming current to ensure a fast response of the relay, but I can't think why you would want that either.

    #7 11 years ago

    I don't understand that one either. But I know this much, pinball manufacturers are (and were) notoriously cheap. If it didn't need to be there for something, it wouldn't be there. Maybe compensating for some design flaw in that particular game? Who knows?

    #8 11 years ago

    Could it be to balance the voltage across the two other "resistors" the coin lock out and the lock 105 ohm? Cause they will have a different voltage drop and current but maybe putting this in parallel somehow changes that a bit.

    I may be wanting to say balance the current... but its been a while since I had physics/electronics.

    #9 11 years ago
    Quoted from PinballShawn:

    Maybe compensating for some design flaw in that particular game?

    I checked a few different Bally machines, every schematic I checked has this resistor. So I’m thinking that it is not a design fault. (Was one of my first thoughts too!)

    I agree if it was not required it would not be there.

    Hate not knowing!!

    #10 11 years ago

    Thinking more about this resistor, is it creating a bias, so why do we need a bias?
    To make the coil move slower? To make the coil operate softer? Ummmmmm!

    #11 11 years ago

    Chris,
    Have you posted this on the yahoo EM group?
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/empinbalmachines/

    there is a broader EM audience there .

    --Jeff

    #12 11 years ago

    Maybe I am repeating what you said... But if the make break normally closed switch is opened that resistor would allow some current to flow through the the coin lock out relay acting as an in series circuit with the lock out coil... but I thought that make break switch that is normally closed was attached to a continuous duty coil so its only really off if the game is off... right... so I don't get what it does when that switch is closed. Then it kind seems pointless as the current would just go around it so its not like it would be modifying anything to the left in that diagram...

    #13 11 years ago
    Quoted from rufessor:

    I thought that make break switch that is normally closed was attached to a continuous duty coil so its only really off if the game is off... right...

    When the Score motor operates, the Coin lock RE. de energises as expected allowing coins to be returned to the coin return tray, I check the operation on my machine. So one must asks them self, what is different when a coin is inserted between the machine turned off and the machine in the middle of the start-up sequence?
    And I still have no idea.

    #14 11 years ago
    Quoted from way2wyrd:

    Chris,
    Have you posted this on the yahoo EM group?

    Still waiting on the site owner to give me access, 3 days now.
    Another good reason to join Pinside!!!

    1 week later
    #15 11 years ago

    Here is a thought, maybe a Bally junior purchase officer accidently ordered 10,000 8.2 Kohms Resistors. To stop him getting in trouble, the designers just engineered it in.

    #16 11 years ago

    I think you should just take it out and see if you notice anything change. I don't see how anything could break that way.

    #17 11 years ago

    Anyone interest, we have had a BIG discussion about this resistor on RGP. Still not sure what it does but well worth a look, particularly after the 10th post or so.
    https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#searchin/rec.games.pinball/8200/rec.games.pinball/P6XIk-hG-Tw/Hum55W2_v74J

    1 year later
    #18 9 years ago

    Ok all, we now have a whole bunch of new members on Pinside since the OPing, and I’m still wanting to know why this resistor is in most Bally machines. To date the best answer is to reduce arcing across the SW, but then why is it not found in other places.

    Any ideas?

    PS - I know this post is not in the best spot, should be in Tech, but could not figure how to move it. Is a pre-pinside revamp posting.

    #19 9 years ago

    chrisbee I think that resistor just drops the voltage to the score motor switches
    if you measure the voltage before the resistor and after I think it's dropping the voltage

    just a thought
    tom

    #20 9 years ago
    Quoted from tommycrum:

    I think that resistor just drops the voltage to the score motor switches

    Thanks for your input Tom, but if you look closely at the circuit, the resistor is in parallel with the Scr Motor SW. Therefor short circuiting the resistor , the resistor is doing nothing while the SW is closed, effectively out of the circuit. When the SW is open, then the resistor is in series with the coin lock out coil. As soon as there is an air gap on the SW then the resistance of the SW will be larger than this resistor.

    9 months later
    #21 9 years ago

    Dear Chrisbee and other participants
    Doing time I read in http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm and http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair Here I looked at different forms of switches -> 4.3.4 Make-Make aka Form AA switch -> Additional information & photos about leaf switches can be found here. So I clicked on the word "here" -> http://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/switches.html , looking around -> http://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/resistor.html
    AND IN THAT ARTICLE, Case 2, they offer an interesting theorie on "Coin Lockout coil and resistor": To hinder 2 players on "rapidly to throw 2 coins in" -> (FIRST coin - please wait - SECOND coin).

    I am helping in a german forum on "Bally Space Time": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2262 - the "Coin Lockout Coil and resistor (8200 Ohm, 1/2 Watt)" is in the schema (C.5--9.2).
    AND: An resistor (3300 Ohm, 2 Watt) is (rougly H-6) with "Switch on Tunnel-Relay - Flash Motor - Flash-Release-Coil" F.0-to-J.4---5.4.
    AND: An resistor (70 Ohm) is with "Tunnel-Relay", F.0---9.0
    AND: resistors (70 Ohm) are with "Extra-Ball-Target-Relay, Start-Tunnel-Target-Relay" around F---19

    I do not have Bally-Pins - will an owner try out: "playing an hour" with "Coin Lockout Coil WITH resistor mounted" -> "Heat of Coil" ? , "Sparks on Score Motor" ? "Timing of Coil-movement" ?
    Afterwards the same, but the resistor un-soldered ?

    I like that "bingo.cdyn" article. Greetings Rolf

    #22 9 years ago

    The lockout coil is a "Continuous Duty" Coil but needs to be de-energized at times, (rejecting a coin when inserted while the score motor has already begun turning). It is NOT in series with the lockout relay. The purpose of the resistor is to maintain some power to the coil even when it needs to be de-energized.

    #23 9 years ago

    Correction - Not in series with the Lock Relay.

    #24 9 years ago

    That resistor absorbs some of the back-EMF generated when the switch opens. It prevents or limits arcing on the switch.

    I wasn't sure of this when the original RGP thread was active, but I found a reference to it in the Gottlieb service manual.

    - Kerry

    P.S. Long time listener, first time poster

    #25 9 years ago
    Quoted from KerryImming:

    That resistor absorbs some of the back-EMF generated when the switch opens. It prevents or limits arcing on the switch.
    I wasn't sure of this when the original RGP thread was active, but I found a reference to it in the Gottlieb service manual.
    - Kerry
    P.S. Long time listener, first time poster

    Great to hear from you Kerry. You schooled and helped me out a TON on RGP in the early days of my EM learning curve!

    Cheers,
    Frank

    #26 9 years ago
    Quoted from KerryImming:

    P.S. Long time listener, first time poster

    Good to see you post on Pinside Kerry.

    Thanks again for the help you gave me on RGP in years past.

    Ken

    #27 9 years ago
    Quoted from KerryImming:

    I found a reference to it in the Gottlieb service manual.

    For those interested, the resistor is described in the "D. Gottlieb & Co. Instruction and Service Manual", a helpful little paperback. You can find it here: http://www.crowriver.com/books/bk079.htm

    Page 37: "Resistors are used across the rivets of some step switches that are powering relays. The application of the resistor cuts down the arcing and pitting on the rivets on the step switch."

    This would be true for other types of switches also.
    And... thanks for the kind words.

    #28 9 years ago

    Same resistor is usually found behind the 0-9 unit for the alternating relay. Maintaining some power to the coil will minimize arching to the switch or rivets.

    #29 9 years ago

    Thanks Kerry, I remember you form my RGP days too. The EMF explanation has always been my favorite. Its the only one that the maths adds up.

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