Fun absolutely outweighs theme. Take LOTR, for example. I have WOZ on order, admit that the theme and cab are sissy, but still can't wait to get this thing into the gameroom.

Fun definitely outweighs theme. Machines like DM, TS, JM are worth owning because they're fun, even though they have pretty bad themes. I mentioned these because they are cheap..

You're talking about a 7500 machine...

when you get into that ball park I would say that you had better at least be able to tolerate the theme.

It really depends on the particular game. For example, I don't like AC/DC's music enough to buy the pin, but I would buy the exact same pin if it was re-themed to one of my favorite groups. This is a case where the theme prevented me from buying it. Conversely, sometimes a game is just so much fun that I can look past the theme. WCS would be a good example of this.

It takes a really bad theme to kill a game.
It kills Family Guy and WCS for me...

WOZ isn't an ideal theme for a lot of players, but I don't think it's that bad...

I've felt the same way, teetering on the edge, just not excited about the theme. Now, with recent developments, I think I'm about to commit just because of the fun factor. But, gawd how I hated that movie!

+1. And I would say more than that it's how specific the theme is. Things like Nascar & WCS & LOTR don't interest me in the least, but whats going on in the games is fmailair and doesn't "irk" me or anything. Games like Rolling Stones & Elvis are so narrow in scope that if you don't like the theme it's going to be hard to get past.

I mean how much can you hate the Wizard of OZ? I don't go watch it every weekend by any means but can it bother you that much?

Well hold on there gambit. Although I do agree with you that fun outweighs theme there are many others who simply don't enjoy games with themes they dislike.

For me it's all about gameplay. I'd much rather have a fun game with a poor theme than a great theme that sucks to play. Of course if the game has both your golden!

Drano, you just have to ask yourself what type of collector you are. Of course you have to factor expense into your decision.

Hell yes!
Fun over theme anyday.
Themes are cool and helps somewhat, but if the game doesn't make you want to hit that start button and play just one more game over and over again, whats the point irregardless of the theme, it turns into a very large dust collector.

I was under the impression that this was the only difference. Maybe I'm wrong?

For me, Theme factors in really heavily here. I think it will be very successful as a location pin, but i would not be excited to have one in my gameroom. If one ever came up for a steal, I would buy it as trade bait only.

All that said, I am excited to play it and totally change my mind!

True, some things in the theme DO worry me. The Red Slippers are bad, and some of the over coloring I have seen is a little much.

The standard WOZ will be exactly the same playfield and gameplay. LE adds non reflective glass, green trim, shaker, topper, different backbox and probably loads of goodies included but core game remains identical.

I would say that game play outweighs theme...in my case, SM the theme does nothing for me... BUT I Love the game play on SM, so therefore I own one...I don't own a TRS (a friend does so I can play it whenever I want!!) and don't really care for their music, but I do like the way the game plays...When it comes to plopping down 6 or 7K for a pin...I had better like both the theme and the game play...but even then that is out of my budget! Case and point, I would LOVE to have an AC/DC (premium)...I love the game play (on the pro) and the theme and AC/DC s music are just the icing on the cake!! But the price tag on it is more than I can afford for the time being... maybe one day!!

Phoebe

Agreed, I cringed a little when I saw that... Attention to detail is great, but getting too "cutesy" makes it difficult for us males to proudly present our new $7,500 to friends

Normally I would agree with you, but in his case it fits the theme perfectly. How can you have too much color on a Wizard of Oz pin?

Everyone who's biggest concern is just the ruby red slippers can rest easy cause JJ said they will ship the game with or without the slipper flippers installed (you can have regular old Williams flippers if You prefer) Simple fix if they bother you that much. I'm sure I'll just have mine left in the goodie bag inside the game. My biggest concern so far is how that rainbow plastic will look in person. I may have to buy a 2nd one and do some hand painting on it if I don't like the look of it.

Edit: Looks like you posted while I was writing and came to the same conclusion as me.

Short answer for me is, "yes." But I'll play devil's advocate and go against what I just said. I thought WWF RR was a good solid game. But the theme absolutely killed it for me. I just can't put a professional wrestling themed pin in my basement. Won't do it. On the other end is DE SW. Not a great game from a rules and shot perspective, but the theme and presentation are great. I regret selling mine.

The other thing to consider is the fact that WOZ is USD $6500-7500 depending on which model you buy. That's a lot of money to drop on something that you have reservations about. I'm not totally in love with the theme, but I like it enough that it isn't dissuading me from getting one. And I have young kids that think it will be great.

If I were in your shoes, I'd wait and see if you can find one locally to play first, although I don't know how many are going to Canada. There are enough of them being made that you'll be able to get one after the release. Jack has basically said they'll make as many regular editions as people want to buy. And if you end up really liking it and want an LE, I'm sure you'll be able to find one for a reasonable price at some point. Not everyone is going to hold on to them forever, and they won't be BBB rare.

Drano, I don't think you're being overly critical of the WOZ theme pin.

I've never been a fan of the movie. I had never seen it from start to finish until last year. I lost a bet with my wife and her win was that I had to watch WOZ all the way through without falling asleep. For me that was damn hard to do.

As a kid it was on every year and I just never liked it enough to want to sit through it back then
and that carried over through all my years as an adult.

The WOZ pin can be the greatest pin ever made but I'm never going to own one because I don't care for the theme of it. I'll probably never play one either. Not due to anything personal against JJP. They could make the greatest most fun Sesame Street pin but I'd never play it because I have to be into the theme to want to play it.

The same way you counld't have too much green on the Shrek table. It's a balancing act. Why not make every PF rubber a different color for that rainbow effect? You gotta draw the line somewhere!

Fun is the most important factor in pinball. I can overlook theme unless it's something completely over-the-top. I don't think there's been a mass produced pin with a theme that couldn't be overcome by fun factor.

For me, WOZ's fun factor is going to have to go pretty far to overcome it's theme. That's just me.

First off, theme is something I care about very much. It's what draws my interest in the first place, as long as the artwork is good. The one game that fun outweighed theme for me, was FishTales. I'm not into fishing and didn't think I would like a game based on fishing either, but the art, humour and gameplay are so good it doesn't matter. Usually theme and fun go hand in hand for me, but there are always exceptions. I have a feeling WOZ may be another game (for me anyway) that fun outweighs a theme that I have no interest in.

You might buy a game whose theme you love but feel it is not a great game, but if you love how a game plays, ignore the theme although it might be unlikely you ever give it the time to find out.

Theme might have a bit more play in the "modern" pinball that WOZ is ushering in, what with the display vs an old DMD. If you absolutely hate WOZ, it might hurt more to frequently see it rendered into animations with modern clarity vs. still getting away with a "retro cool" factor that animations on a DMD can provide (perhaps intermediate step being some of the newer Stern animations). Just a thought.

Game play over theme for sure, you should start a poll on this topic, I bet it would be overwhelming play over theme

I would agree with this. The theme will be much more "in your face" than it ever has been before.

For a home collection, theme matters a great deal. WOZ and AC/DC for example, both look to be a lot of fun to play.... but I don't want to be listening to their music over and over again because I can't stand either from an audio experience perspective. For those dissing the importance of theme, would WOZ Republicans buy it if it was an Obama theme? Or a Bush theme if you are a Rep hater......Yeah, thought so.

Gameplay trumps theme. I love star wars, but none of the pins do anything for me.

On the other hand I really like playing nascar. It is a great game. I just don't care for the theme all that much.

At the same time I really like rbion. the theme I can go either way with. Its not bad, but I don't love it per say.

Selling both to get lotr. Why? The game is fun and deep. I think you end up flailing the ball around a bit too much sometimes. It gets old playing super long games everytime. The thing is, the theme. Both I and my fiancee were big fans of the books before the movies. Out of all the games I have sold it isn't the one I considered the most fun (funhouse), but it is the one I miss the most.

Wow. Your loss, I guess. Let's play along. I never will play LOTR because I'm not into that fantasy stuff. Not gonna give Fish Tales a second look because it's too redneck for me. Cirqus Voltaire with all those sissy purple and pink colors and kiddie music? I'll pass. Forget Twilight Zone--who needs a lame old black&white tv show? Wheel of Fortune? Nah, tv game shows are for middle-aged housewives. Etc., etc., etc.

So glad I am one of the lucky ones who actually enjoys *playing* *pinball*.

As for the OP's query, I too would suggest waiting to play one, and seeing if it is indeed a great game or not. There will be regular versions available at regular price, and as noted above, the rules and play features will be identical to the LE. I much prefer that to Stern's divisive strategy of producing versions with different mechs and rules.

+1.

i think we were debating themes that could actually happen.

I can certainly understand hating a theme so much that it completely turns you off from the pin. For me, this would be BBH. It could be the greatest game ever made, and I still wouldn't put one in my gameroom.

Like WOZ.

You could put next to RFM...sort of a best game/worst game ever

I think WOZ is different then other pins, if you don't like the theme you may want to avoid it.
With the monitor they are going to have lots of WOZ video clips and if you don't like WOZ it could get very annoying.

Yeah and we have no idea what they are and what triggers them. We all know those games that say the same damn thing over and over and over...and not that's big as day on an LCD screen.

Just imagine Joe Pesci's head popping up there every time he makes a noise in LW3...oh damn that's painful!

I know I am going to get flak for this but for me theme and gameplay are equally important when OWNING a pin. If I am going to shell out the big bucks for a NIB game I would want it to reflect my personal tastes as well as be fun to play. After all this will be a huge thing sitting in my house for all to see. I am going to have to look at it constantly, most likely more than I can actually play it, so in a way it is like a giant piece of art in my house.

Having said that, theme would never dissuade me from playing a game out in the wild. I would jump at the chance to play a WOZ. I was very excited to play Transformers when I saw it but would never consider buying it. Its is just a matter of personal taste. Does that mean that every pin made should cater to my personal taste? Absolutley not. There are plenty of pins that I love for their gameplay as well as their artwork that I will never have the chance to personally own.

DM is proof that fun outweighs theme (and ugliness for that matter).

Theme would factor in more heavily if i were buying NIB.

Agree with this. JM, DM, and TS would undoubtedly be worth more if they had themes that were better liked, they are "bang for the buck" pins because of their themes. Shelling out the money for a NIB pin, I guarantee that I'd like the theme.

WOZ as a movie I enjoy, but it doesn't excite me as a pin. JJP, is exciting, however.

For sure! Take a game like White Water, theme does nothing for me. Never been rafting, doesn't interest me in the least, but the game is great. Or Nascar. I think Nascar is a waste of fossil fuel. Granted the game isn't the best game ever made, but if I judged it just on theme, it would have never gotten a quarter from me. On the flip side take a game like Stern's Indiana Jones. Potentially the greatest theme out there but the game is downright awful and incomplete.

Does the old addage...never judge a book by it's cover ring a bell?

Yup, that's the point. If one of these were a Star Wars pin, it would probably be in the top 10, 4k + area.

A really good game has the whole package. Anything less is good, just not really good.

AFM with a WOZ theme would still play good, but I'd still not call it a great game.

On the topic of WOZ, I hope it is out there and accessible on location so I can get to know it. That will give me more reason to want to get in on a future JJP game if finances allow.

For the general public, WOZ is a great theme, just not to sure about in my home.

Fun always wins out......but a game is not fin if you do not like the theme. I am sure I will really enjoy playing WOZ but would never buy one because the theme just does nothing for me.

Theme is not that important to me. I am not an ACDC fan but ordered the game. It looks great. I don't like Wizard of Oz, but the game looks neat. Ordered a limited. I'm not a fan of shadow theme. Game is must have and never leaving my gameroom. It's not being a pin flipper to play a game a while and sell it. It's doubtful woz is a lifetime keeper but I'll enjoy it a year and doubt I'll lose anything / much on resale. Zombie attack should go up in value.

Fun wins for me. I am not a Spiderman fan, but heck, the game is great. I love the NFL, but I think the Stern pin is pretty bad.

I like the WOZ theme, but believe that this game will transcend theme. There is just too much happening with this game at a time when many thought pinball was dead. The great thing is that this game will be on location and the general population will get to see first hand how special it is.